Why do people who say that they believe in the Bible...

[ricko]

The truth is Muslims do a better job of killing themselves. Islam is a violent religion and the word they know best is “kill, kill”

“some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims.”

By Gunnar Heinsohn and Daniel Pipes, FrontPageMagazine, October 8, 2007

In Palestine, Hamas, which won the election, has been brutalising its rival Fatah while blaming the Israelis for their misfortune. During recent fighting for Gaza, Hamas was accused by Human Rights Watch of “violations international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes.” According to Human Rights Watch: “Hamas military forces captured 28-year-old Muhammad Swairki, a cook for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s presidential guards, and executed him by throwing him to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story aparment building in the Gaza City.”
Mahmood Elahi

 

[Sam_777]

In the bible, Moses is told to completely destroy Israel’s enemies. Fortunately for the palestinians, Israel doesn’t use the Torah as a political manifesto. Unfortunately for the rest of the world, muslims tend to use the Koran as one.

Hi Valke,

Could you please elaborate more here, I mean is Israel officially a Jewish country or a secular one, and does the constitution contain anything from the Bible?

I’m asking that, because here in Saudi Arabia, our constitution is the Quran, so officially Saudi Arabia is an Islamic religious country, how that would be different from Israel?

 

[LutheranDK]

… continue to support Israel’s disproportionate attacks on the Palestinian population?

If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. … Exodus 21:23-25

To kill over 600 people so far and maim thousands of others and then dismiss them as being mere “collateral damage” just because their side’s rockets have killed a a few of your own people surely cannot be the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity.

Don’t these people believe that “an eye for an eye” as in the Biblical verses above is a divine command and therefore there is a divine reason why this command was sent down?

Is there anything in the Bible that allows for the killing and maiming of literally thousands of Palestinians in response to the harm done to a few Israelis?

This whole mess is caused by people who love their own creation called Israel more than they love humankind.

Or are the Palestinians considered less than human that they should deserve to be slaughtered in such numbers?

Let me tell you what a proportional response would be, pal.
A proportionate response would be for Israel to lob as many rockets at Gaza at random as the Hamas has fired into Israel since Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza. THAT would be proportional, and the civilian casualties would number in the tens of thousands.

You should be GLAD that Israel has not responded proportionally.
The rest of your propaganda BS is not even worthy of comment. Please respond to the entirety of this post, and not just whatever little bit you feel you can use for propaganda purposes…

 

[JonNC]

Let me tell you what a proportional response would be, pal.
A proportionate response would be for Israel to lob as many rockets at Gaza at random as the Hamas has fired into Israel since Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza. THAT would be proportional, and the civilian casualties would number in the tens of thousands.

You should be GLAD that Israel has not responded proportionally.
The rest of your propaganda BS is not even worthy of comment. Please respond to the entirety of this post, and not just whatever little bit you feel you can use for propaganda purposes…

 

[hamba2han]

Cherry picking verses of the Bible is not going to get us anywhere folks.

I suppose that when you get down to it, the question that really matters is → Why does someone WANT to support Israel?

Like I have explained in my earlier post, it cannot be because God commands it since the Bible clearly states the conditions attached to the Covenant made with the Children of Israel… and these conditions have most definitely been broken time and again.

And since the Bible states it, then is there a reason why Christians should NOT believe this to be true?

Does it make any sense at all that the Almighty will set conditions for His Covenant with the Children of Israel… and then does not care when these conditions are broken?

Can you respect a deity who does not care?

 

[rikkk1958]

Cherry picking verses of the Bible is not going to get us anywhere folks.

I suppose that when you get down to it, the question that really matters is → Why does someone WANT to support Israel?

Like I have explained in my earlier post, it cannot be because God commands it since the Bible clearly states the conditions attached to the Covenant made with the Children of Israel… and these conditions have most definitely been broken time and again.

And since the Bible states it, then is there a reason why Christians should NOT believe this to be true?

Does it make any sense at all that the Almighty will set conditions for His Covenant with the Children of Israel… and then does not care when these conditions are broken?

Can you respect a deity who does not care?

Supporting Israel in its fight with someone who provoked them to get into war is I think a reasonable commitment by those who believe in self defense. We have reasons to believe in supporting Israel and I think you have yours. My own reasons are based on Biblical and Right for Self Defense issues. The Biblical issue is because the Jews as the chosen ones and as you said, that God made a covenant but broken many times are questions we can not fathom because we never know what God’s plan are. We know that when the Son came, they continued to defy Him however, it is still God’s plan and we do not know how it will end. As Christians, we can only follow what had been given and instructed to us. We still give our utmost respect to the Jewish people especially when they are oppressed by those who wanted them to be wiped out from the face of the earth, which I think is the most unspeakable and damning rhetorics by its Arab neighbors.

What you need to understand is why its Arab neighbors continue to hate Israel. If you try to divert from this question, you will never find a solution because the problem lies on the people you are supporting. Israel is ready to make peace with its neighbors. Why would they not? They can not afford to live being hated by its neighbors forever that is why they need to defend themselves to continue to exist. Besides, I strongly believe that God will not forsake His chosen ones and will continue to show the whole world of His power and glory through them.

 

[Reuben_J]

I suppose that when you get down to it, the question that really matters is → Why does someone WANT to support Israel?

I will not address on your false premise and erroneous understanding of Christians belief. You’d do better if you don’t attempt to tell Christians what the Bible means to them. But if you must, then do it correctly.

But you are right – the question is why does anyone want to support Israel?

There is no divine answer to this as there is none when you say you do not support it. In fact you do not even support the right for Israel to exist. And I think this IS the reason for war!

People support Israel because any nation that is recognized by the United Nation simply has the right to exist regardless of what the Bible or the Quran may say. The United Nation may not be perfect but the world really needs to follow some rule and some authority and the United Nation is one such body.

In 1948 there was debate by both sides (Arabs and Jews) in the United Nations on whether Israel should exist or not. It was non conclusive as each party saw the rationale for their argument from their own perspective respectively. Jewish homeland is Biblically justified which the Arabs did not accept. On the other hand the Palestinians cannot totally claim that Palestine is theirs as this land has changed hands so often in its history it is difficult to determine who are the rightful natives to it. Thus appropriately the Untied Nations decided on it.

So why do some Christians support Israel? I think the answer is simple – natural justice, which is the spirit of the Bible too. Muslims should not be too greedy and want to take everything. There is place for everyone and Palestine and Israel can exist side by side peacefully if they want to.

 

[Valke2]

Hi Valke,

Could you please elaborate more here, I mean is Israel officially a Jewish country or a secular one, and does the constitution contain anything from the Bible?

I’m asking that, because here in Saudi Arabia, our constitution is the Quran, so officially Saudi Arabia is an Islamic religious country, how that would be different from Israel?

My post was replying to Hambam’s query of biblical support for war.

Israel is a secular country and the constitution does not contain anything from the Bible.

 

[RobHom]

The following is actually a post from another forum:

It is common spin in the mainstream media to portray the people of Gaza as the ones who initially broke the ceasefire but this is not the case in actuality.

Here is CNN fact checking the Israeli claim that Hamas broke the cease fire first. US News and World Report, The Guardian, and The Economist are also quoted in the fact check report.

CNN Finally Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen

United Nations: Hamas Did Not Break the Truce, Israel Did.

UN: Israel violated truce 7 times in one week

BTW, here is the 9th Commandment for those who may have forgotten:

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

First, the UN making statements about who did what bears as much validity as a pig being a cow. Those same nutcases actually complained that the “rights” of drug smugglers were being violated by the Mexican government because the government elected to involve their Army in stopping the killings and drug smuggling. The UN has as much credibility as a dead camel.

CNN? Hahahahahaha…they’re a lot like the internet…if they said it, its got to be true…hehehehehehehe!

Ooooh, Israel violated the truce 7 times in one week… Hmmm, how many times has hamas done it? How many rockets have they fired in a day? Does not one rocket equal one violation?

Bearing false witness… That’s something Muslims should learn not to do.

As for putting jihadists in F-16’s…and arming them with attack helicopters, etc… You should be very happy that hamas doesn’t have them, and the balance of the muslim countries haven’t wasted their money buying them for hamas. Apparently you weren’t around when the Israeli Air Force destroyed the Arab Air Forces on the first day of the war. The whackos with hamas would probably last less than 5 minutes. In case you suffer any confusion…the Israeli Air Force is considered one of the very best on the planet.

From here: nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Israeli-Air-Force#The_Six-Day_War

During the Six-Day War, the Israeli Air Force achieved air supremacy by eliminating the vast majority of opposing Arab air forces on the first day of fighting. On June 5, 1967, in Operation Focus, a massive coordinated raid employing special Durandal and conventional bombs, rockets and strafing, the IAF destroyed most of the Egyptian air force while their planes were still on the ground. By the end of the day the Syrian and Jordanian air forces were virtually wiped out as well. The IAF shoot-down record at the end of the war was a claimed record of 451 enemy aircraft downed versus 10 downed of its own. While this operation was taking place, only a handful of aircraft were left to guard Israeli skies.

Believe this… You would not want to go up against the Israeli Air Force… hamas does not want to…that’s why they and other arab terrorists hide in schools, hospitals an civilian areas. Its called COWARDICE!!

The arab world has wasted BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars, shekels, pounds, name your money…on arms, munitions, and outright hatred…all for naught.

What amazes me is that the dunderheads in arab countries can’t grasp the fact that they have been losing the battle since day one, and instead of wasting billions more…they would be far better off using the money for the good of their people and making peace with Israel.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Hi Valke,

Could you please elaborate more here, I mean is Israel officially a Jewish country or a secular one, and does the constitution contain anything from the Bible?

I’m asking that, because here in Saudi Arabia, our constitution is the Quran, so officially Saudi Arabia is an Islamic religious country, how that would be different from Israel?

Therein lays (sic) the problem Sam. When State and Religion are combined atrocities occur. History has shown this time and time again, yet men refuse to learn this simple lesson. You want the religious wars to stop, seperate the your religion from you civil government. As to your question, Isreal is not run by it’s religous authorities, that’s the difference.

 

[LutheranDK]

Cherry picking verses of the Bible is not going to get us anywhere folks.

I suppose that when you get down to it, the question that really matters is → Why does someone WANT to support Israel?

Like I have explained in my earlier post, it cannot be because God commands it since the Bible clearly states the conditions attached to the Covenant made with the Children of Israel… and these conditions have most definitely been broken time and again.

And since the Bible states it, then is there a reason why Christians should NOT believe this to be true?

Does it make any sense at all that the Almighty will set conditions for His Covenant with the Children of Israel… and then does not care when these conditions are broken?

Can you respect a deity who does not care?

LOL - nice try at derailing the thread. But please relate to my point in my answer to you, and stop trying to change the bleedin’ subject.

 

[hamba2han]

Let me tell you what a proportional response would be, pal.
A proportionate response would be for Israel to lob as many rockets at Gaza at random as the Hamas has fired into Israel since Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza. THAT would be proportional, and the civilian casualties would number in the tens of thousands.

You should be GLAD that Israel has not responded proportionally.
The rest of your propaganda BS is not even worthy of comment. Please respond to the entirety of this post, and not just whatever little bit you feel you can use for propaganda purposes…

So, you wish to know what a proportional response would be?

I think that it is best that the Bible itself explain this to you:

If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. … Exodus 21:23-25

If you pay particular attention to the part concerning “a life for a life”, then this would mean that if Palestinian rockets takes the lives of say 5 Israelis, then the Israeli response should be limited to only 5 Palestinian deaths.

Commands of the Lord are really NOT meant to be complicated and difficult to understand.

 

[sambos671]

So, you wish to know what a proportional response would be?

I think that it is best that the Bible itself explain this to you:

If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. … Exodus 21:23-25

If you pay particular attention to the part concerning “a life for a life”, then this would mean that if Palestinian rockets takes the lives of say 5 Israelis, then the Israeli response should be limited to only 5 Palestinian deaths.

Commands of the Lord are really NOT meant to be complicated and difficult to understand.

How many times do I have to reitterate that Eye for an eye is for civil disputes not all out war. Hamas is using their own civilians and Israels civilians as a means to destroying Israel. They’ve already declared war. Israels is responding as to a war that the Palestinians are engaged in. The bible treats war differently than civil disputes. You can’t choose the Eye for an eye because its out of context. What is in context are war methodologies described in the bible on how to defeat an enemy. Which is not pretty.

 

[hamba2han]

… People support Israel because any nation that is recognized by the United Nation simply has the right to exist regardless of what the Bible or the Quran may say. The United Nation may not be perfect but the world really needs to follow some rule and some authority and the United Nation is one such body.

The world is the sole property of God, NOT the United Nations… or anyone else for that matter.

Did God authorised the United Nations to decide on how to divide the land of Palestine?

So why do some Christians support Israel? I think the answer is simple – natural justice, which is the spirit of the Bible too.

And how do Christians determine what contitutes “natural justice” if they are not referring to the Bible?

Remember, the determination of justice, just like all other moral issues, is the sole prerogative of the Lord, no one else has the right to decide on what constitutes “natural justice”.

 

[hamba2han]

… I strongly believe that God will not forsake His chosen ones and will continue to show the whole world of His power and glory through them.

What you are saying here is diametrically opposed to what is written in the Bible as can be seen in my earlier post.

Why should I believe you instead of the Bible?

 

[Reuben_J]

What you are saying here is diametrically opposed to what is written in the Bible as can be seen in my earlier post.

Why should I believe you instead of the Bible?

Maybe you don’t believe him, but honestly I don’t think you believe in the Bible either.

 

[sambos671]

What you are saying here is diametrically opposed to what is written in the Bible as can be seen in my earlier post.

Why should I believe you instead of the Bible?

You’re not correct either. You’ve missed out on the Book of Hosea. God does punish Israel for not keeping the covenant but continually draws them back in repentance. It is done over and over again throughout the scriptures. God desires Israel to be faithful. Now Christians believe that we are grafted into the promise made to Israel and tha Jesus has fulfilled all the requirements of the Law. Just because Israel gets punished for their sins doesn’t mean God abandons them. That being said the Current state of Israel is not the same Israel of the bible.

 

[Reuben_J]

The world is the sole property of God, NOT the United Nations… or anyone else for that matter.

Did God authorised the United Nations to decide on how to divide the land of Palestine?

And how do Christians determine what contitutes “natural justice” if they are not referring to the Bible?

Remember, the determination of justice, just like all other moral issues, is the sole prerogative of the Lord, no one else has the right to decide on what constitutes “natural justice”.

I was saying there is no divine answer to the Arab-Israeli war.

I think you are emotionally disturbed about this war and sure it has affected you. But I would also ask you to see other views as well. If you cannot be rational how then can people take you seriously?

If you want to base your argument on the Bible then Israel should wins hand down! Canaan is their promised land remember? That’s why I say you do not believe in the Bible.

 

[mexilad]

Why woul anyoe that believes in the bible not support the right of Israel (or anyone) to defennd itself? Self defense is biblical. Hamas wants Israel destroyed. Should Israe do nothing, bt cease to exist?

 

[sambos671]

IMHO Muslims and Palestinians hate Jews and Israel so much that they can’t see past their own hatred. I think for some reason the fact that Jews and Israel exist gnaws at the very inner being of these people because its an afront to their heritage in brings into perspective that God did choose Issac over Ishmael and the Amonites and the Moabites and the Midianites. That God chose Jacob over Edom and his desendents. Though there heritage maybe be partly traced back to these ancient peoples they are affronted that their heritage wasn’t chosen to occupy Canaan. Islam is a chosen religion for one primary purpose it confronts the God who chose Israel. The God who became man and died for our sins. It’s a religion that supposes their violence and hatred should be founded in their “struggle” or Jihad which is more than just the inner struggle against sin. Its their own religion. Something that these people can possess and raise their angry fist towards God shaking it in defiance. Almost as if they are saying “I have a singular God who is better than you because he gives me back what you have taken away!” I see no peace in Islam. They say almost childlike “say to the unbeliever I do not believe what you believe. You do not believe what I believe. I will never believe what you believe. You will never believe what I believe You have your religion and I have mine.” By the sound of it I could almost add “nanny nanny boo boo” They also say “lay in wait for the unbeliever. Ambush them where ever you find them. Besige them and kill them unless they repent and pay the alms levy.” Islam provide these peoples a reason for their violence which their peoples have always been. Violent.