Why do Protestant Apologists feel the need to lie about history and the Catholic Church?

[Jesusstreet]

In the jungle there are wild beasts, and deceptive vines, which seem nurishing but carry deadly poisons. Snakes slither in the grass. Lions, and tigers, and bears prowl about seeking fresh meat to devour. Predators seeking prey, and vines which poison.

Meanwhile some have gotten hold of a map, which is clearly marked with a bold “x” which marks the spot of buried treasure. and the route is marked out in bold red ink. So the put on their exploring gear, strap an elephan gun to their back, and grab a machete, and hack away at the foliage, leading their flock into the jungle. Across rivers, and through thickets, avoiding the dangerous predators, and looking out for the scorpions and dangerous wildlife.

They know they can find the treasure for they have the map. But have not taken the time to learn how to read the map, so on their expedition get lost. Their flock has confidence in their leader, who speaks boldly, with much zeal and confidence. So they are sure he will lead them to the promised land, to riches, and glory. Soon some get suspicious so copy the map, and decide they can do better, so their expedition breaks up into groups, now many seek the way to the treasure, but all are lost.

Little do they realize that their are guides who made the map, who know how to read it, that know which vine in the jungle gives TRUE nurishment, and so have already arrived at the spot marked “x” . … these have found the way. And at that spot is a great hidden city . … through a narrow gate . … but that is not on the map . … so even those who find the way arrive and see the broad golden gates and head straight for them figuring they have found it, but this gate is a deception and leads to death . … The true path which needed to be taught by the maker of the map is the small narrow path to the narrow passage which leads to the treasure . … the CITY OF GOD . … where all joy and splendor, peace and pleasure, where every desire of the heart is fulfilled in eternal service to the pleasure of OUR GOD . …

If they had only known . … why didn’t someone tell them . …

(consider yourselves told)

 

[Nella]

Catholics don’t worship priests. Apparently you been expose to so much misinformation about Catholicism. Catholic only worship the Blessed Lord Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

I know that sir. I never said that this is valid.

 

[Nella]

Wrong. There was a Catholic Church in the sixth Century, fifth Century, 4th Century, 3rd Century, 2nd Century, and 1st Century.

The Orthodox Church at the time were in union with the Universal Church prior to the Schism in 1054 AD, and there was only One Church then.

Jesus established One Church, whom he built upon Simon Peter, and also commissioned 11 Apostles. After Jesus ascension, there were five major Churches, Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople. Jerusalem headed by James, Rome by Peter, as well as Antioch, Constantinople by St. Andrew, and Alexandria by Mark.

The Apostles were succeeded by the bishops and Patriarchs. I think you need to study the Early Church history to make prove your claim that neither the Catholic Church or the Orthodox dates its line at the time of the Apostle.

Even though the Orthodox are split from Rome, they do have valid Apostolic Succession as much as the Catholic Church. They lack union with the Pope in Rome.

None of what you said here proves anything sir. Prove to me that at the time of Christ the church was centered in Rome and also prove to me that the RCC existed in the 6th century.

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]

Good response to a blantantly ignorant post.

mgrfin

And I will put enmities between thee and the
Woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush
Thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Gen. 3:15

 

[mgrfin]

None of what you said here proves anything sir. Prove to me that at the time of Christ the church was centered in Rome and also prove to me that the RCC existed in the 6th century.

Nella,

Where do you get this stuff? No one ever said they Jesus was in Rome.

Jesus and his disciples never stepped outside of Palestine.

Proving to you that the Church existed in the 6th century is easy.
Why do you think this is so difficult?

Mgrfin

Salve Regina:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, poor children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last
and show us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus:
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God,
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

 

[St_Violet]

How interesting, commonly Protestants believe that the papacy was first established in th 4th Century with Pope Leo the Great, now suddenly the establishment has shifted more later.

*"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains . Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110])

The early Christian Church was also known as a Catholic Church, this letter was written by Ignatius of Antioch, a student of John the apostle, and this indeed just proves that Catholic Church was around before the 6th Century

“Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church” (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]). - Irenaeus

here we can see by this letter that is dated before the 6th century, it was well known by the early Church fathers that Christianity became centered in Rome.*

 

[mgrfin]

How interesting, commonly Protestants believe that the papacy was first established in th 4th Century with Pope Leo the Great, now suddenly the establishment has shifted more later.

"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains . Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110])

The early Christian Church was also known as a Catholic Church, this letter was written by Ignatius of Antioch, a student of John the apostle, and this indeed just proves that Catholic Church was around before the 6th Century

“Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church” (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]). - Irenaeus

here we can see by this letter that is dated before the 6th century, it was well known by the early Church fathers that Christianity became centered in Rome.

When Jesus gave Peter the Keys, he didn’t say "Upon this Rock I build my Catholic Church.

So what? Getting hung up on the word “Catholic” is very narrow thinking. Who were these people in the first century - they were Christians. They certainly werent Lutherans, Calvinists, and Anglicans.

Such can prove their origins to the 16th Century. What was before, and after, was our Church, the Roman Catholic Church. Get over, guys. Only our Church can trace its origins to the time of the Apostles, and Jesus Christ leaving us to live faith in Him.

mgrfin

Graduale - Vigil of Assumption
Blessed and venerable are you, O
Virgin Mary; for without stain to your
virginity you became the Mother of
the Savior. O Virgin Mother of God,
he whom the whole world cannot
contain, being made man, shut himself
up within your womb.

 

[po18guy]

Yes; and you are lying when you say that ALL protestants who speak out against the Catholic Church are lying.

Whoa! He said “apologists”, not “all Protestants”. He restricted it to them. If you are SDA, please understand that, as sincere and Godly as SDA members are; as much as they love the Eternal Triune God; as much faith as they have; as much good works as they do (and it is a LOT), they were mislead by the sect’s founders. The entire reason for the founding of the SDA was to prepare for Christ’s return by predicting the date of his return. This is absolutely anti-Christian (Matthew 24:36)

Our chaplain at work is SDA and I love him as a brother in Christ. He was SHOCKED to hear a mere Catholic talk fervently about our Lord. What has he heard about us? There is an UNDENIABLE and vehement anti-Catholic undertone to the SDA doctrine. “Seven Mysteries” sound familiar? It identifies, of course, the Pope as the anti-Christ. Well, OK. Which Pope? All of them, or just one? Since Pope John Paul II was instrumental in the fall of GODLESS Soviet communism and the restoration of faith, it certainly wasn’t HIM, since a house divided cannot stand (Matthew 12:24-27).

CHALLENGE: befriend a faithful Catholic, examine the oldest Christian church, ask the priest which of the twelve Apostles his ordination traces back to. We are called to union in Christ. Evil triumphs because Satan is united while the Body of Christ has been shattered into 33,000 pieces. Please God, bring us together, but forbid that we compromise even one letter of the Law, or of the teachings of your Beloved Son!

Protestant101, I continue to pray for you. Your heart and mind is seeking the fullness of God.

 

[Nella]

Nella,

Where do you get this stuff? No one ever said they Jesus was in Rome.

Jesus and his disciples never stepped outside of Palestine.

Proving to you that the Church existed in the 6th century is easy.
Why do you think this is so difficult?

Mgrfin

Salve Regina:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To you we cry, poor children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last
and show us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus:
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God,
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Prove it if it is so easy. Arrogance runs like water in here. No wonder there is nothing evangelical about Catholicism or at least its members.

 

[Petergee]

This is ridiculous. I don’t know of any widespread Protestant idea that Catholics are required to worship a priest. What a weak flimsy statement by you after all the ranting you did about this subject. I’m quite surprised actually that this is all that you could come up with.

You really are something aren’t you? Is that the only reply you can come up with? No-one but you has said anything about such lies being “a widespread Protestant idea”, so you can put that strawman you’ve made away. No those particular lies aren’t all that I could come up with, they are simply a few examples I gave you since you seem either unwilling or unable to read the rest of this thread.
I challenge you (and anybody else) again: Show me one example of a protestant apologetic against Catholicism which does not depend on blatant lies about what Catholics believe and do, and about undisputable facts of history.
Waffling on with off-topic nonsense as you have done, only shows everybody that you DON’T know of any such apologetic.

 

[Petergee]

How interesting, commonly Protestants believe that the papacy was first established in th 4th Century with Pope Leo the Great, now suddenly the establishment has shifted more later.

IMO there are, as with numerous other issues, innumerable protestant opinions about just who was the first Pope. Some of them even admit that St Peter was the first Pope but say that the Catholic Church somehow became “corrupted” (they then try to explain away Christ’ promise that it would last never be misled and last till the last day) and so a new church had to be founded.
About the only thing all protestants agree on is that something is terribly wrong with the Catholic Church, but they have a myriad different opinions on where, when, how and with whom the Catholic Church went bad.

 

[Renton405]

There are countless anti-Catholic websites on the net, all of which contain nothing but lies against the RCC. They do this by grossly misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine, or by simply making up their own history; a history that conflicts with all modern historical evidence. These lies have obviously disseminated throughout the Protestant laity; however I’m not blaming them, they are the product of a 500 year propaganda campaign. Why is there this culture of misinformation among Protestantism?

Jealousy… they are jealous of our unity and our apostolic history/sucession of over 2000 years.2 things which they will never ever have. Many of the evangelical churches today are barely even a 100 years old, compared to the 2000 year old Catholic Church they are a coddling suckling baby in comparison. … the only response is to attack… kinda like the immature young child attacking the old wise man because he “knows” deep down the old man’s authority and wisdom and is intimidated by it…

 

[Renton405]

"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains . Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110])

The early Christian Church was also known as a Catholic Church, this letter was written by Ignatius of Antioch, a student of John the apostle, and this indeed just proves that Catholic Church was around before the 6th Century

.

So true. That Letter was written 200 years before even constantine came! This letter that Ignatius wrote and other Fathers like Iraeneus really put a log in the protestants arguement that the CC happened after constantine…

 

[Nella]

Jealousy… they are jealous of our unity and our apostolic history/sucession of over 2000 years.2 things which they will never ever have. Many of the evangelical churches today are barely even a 100 years old, compared to the 2000 year old Catholic Church they are a coddling suckling baby in comparison. … the only response is to attack… kinda like the immature young child attacking the old wise man because he “knows” deep down the old man’s authority and wisdom and is intimidated by it…

what???

 

[Nella]

You really are something aren’t you? Is that the only reply you can come up with? No-one but you has said anything about such lies being “a widespread Protestant idea”, so you can put that strawman you’ve made away. No those particular lies aren’t all that I could come up with, they are simply a few examples I gave you since you seem either unwilling or unable to read the rest of this thread.
I challenge you (and anybody else) again: Show me one example of a protestant apologetic against Catholicism which does not depend on blatant lies about what Catholics believe and do, and about undisputable facts of history.
Waffling on with off-topic nonsense as you have done, only shows everybody that you DON’T know of any such apologetic.

I am now just obviously the subject of your rant against all Protestants whoever they may be. I asked you a simple question and the truth is that you cannot give me or anyone else here listening to your rhetoric about people lying one good solid piece of what you have accused Protestants of. Sir, i have nothing personal against you. You seem to rage against me as if you believe I do. Truth is, we could probably sit down to coffee and have a great conversation. I don’t mean anything personal here. 80% of my family (and my wife’s as well) are Catholic.

 

[St_Violet]

well, if you scroll up you will see some proof in my last post before this one. I was waiting for reply for that.

 

[mgrfin]

I am now just obviously the subject of your rant against all Protestants whoever they may be. I asked you a simple question and the truth is that you cannot give me or anyone else here listening to your rhetoric about people lying one good solid piece of what you have accused Protestants of. Sir, i have nothing personal against you. You seem to rage against me as if you believe I do. Truth is, we could probably sit down to coffee and have a great conversation. I don’t mean anything personal here. 80% of my family (and my wife’s as well) are Catholic.

Nella,
I quoted you a very vicious, anti-Catholic web site yesterday.
And, you chose to lie to us today that “you cannont give me or anyone else here listening to your rhetoric about people lying”.
It is now you who are lying, Nella!

mgrfin
Ave Maria

 

[Petergee]

I am now just obviously the subject of your rant against all Protestants whoever they may be. I asked you a simple question and the truth is that you cannot give me or anyone else here listening to your rhetoric about people lying one good solid piece of what you have accused Protestants of. Sir, i have nothing personal against you. You seem to rage against me as if you believe I do. Truth is, we could probably sit down to coffee and have a great conversation. I don’t mean anything personal here. 80% of my family (and my wife’s as well) are Catholic.

Please point to one example of me “ranting” or “raging” against anyone, or accusing “all protestants” of lying.
Please point to any question you have asked me which you think I have failed to answer adequately.
Your accusations are hollow and silly, and apparently yet another attept to obfuscate the fact that you have no answer to my challenge.(“Show me one example of a protestant apologetic against Catholicism which does not depend on blatant lies about what Catholics believe and do, and about undisputable facts of history.”)
We don’t need to have coffee and eyeball each other. If you want to make a rational contribution to the discussion, here’s your chance to do it right here right now. .

 

[JuliaK]

Telling lies about the Catholic faith? Well, that’s a no-brainer… the father of all lies - Satan. He spreads his deceit and division wherever he can. He’s the source of that mayhem. We just need to get educated and we need to help others do the same.

God Bless.

 

[mozart-250]

You want one example of a web site that expresses criticims of Catholicism without lying about it? All right.

Here is one example. I am sure I could find others, but you said you wanted one so here is one.

If you are reading comprehension challenged or short on time, the section from pages 22 on is the section critical of Catholicism.

Satisfied? Yes Virginia, it is possible to be critical of Catholicism without lying.

So then stop the silly assertions that is it impossible to be critical of Catholicism without lying about it, and then backing up these silly assertions with silly websites that are totally removed from mainstream Protestant/Evangelical thought (I might say totally removed from any thinking whatsoever if I were less charitable).