Why do Protestant Apologists feel the need to lie about history and the Catholic Church?

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Protestant101 said:
History has always had an element of the debateable; and of personal interpretation and is not always easy to discern; but to use adjectives like “lie” and “manipulate” to portray those who do not agree with YOUR interpretation is very uncharitable.
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I agree with you that most Protestants do not lie as they sincerely believe the errors of their pastors as truth. However, the OP was talking about the pastors who mislead their flock not the laity!
Protestant101 said:
With the Pope pubicly denouncing ALL protestants as “non-Churches;” recently, then I’d say you are focusing on the wrong problem.
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You are being rude when you use the word “the Pope” to refer to the successor of Saint Peter. The proper salutation is His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI.

What His Holiness said is true especially when the CCC clearly tells us that “outside the Church there is no salvation”. The Protestant churches are our seperated brothers as they left the mother Church. The Protestant clergy and laity keep forgetting that the Bible speaks of one Church as the Church is the body of Christ. How can Christ be divided?
 
Proletarian said:
Wacky? Are you kidding? These sites are nothing out of the ordinary. If you know of a site that points out the “errors” of Catholicism without resorting to a misrepresentation of facts then I would be very interested in seeing it.
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I have to agree with you. Perhaps a look at these sites may clarify some of the issue for the “doubter”.

contenterministries.org They think “everyone but them” is wrong. But Catholicism seems to be their favorite subject for propaganda and lies. They even have a section where they post “letters/emails” from Catholics and former Catholics (their claim) that would be amusing, even comical, if they were not so false.

erwm.com/CatholicIssues.htm You want prove proofs of misrepresentation…take a couple of hours, grab an ice cold coke, some popcorn, get comfortable and start clicking on the links.

challies.com/archives/000034.php

These people even stoop to virulently attacking Mother Teresa, and claim it was written by a former “Sister of Charity”! Their sites are rife with claims that articles were written by “former Catholics”, but then…I guess there are enough “gullibles” reading the trash who will actually believe it.

moriel.org/articles/discernment/catholicism/mike_gendron_catholicism_false.htm

This one is kinda “special” because the person that gave his little speech at the Baptist Student Union at the university in Las Cruces New Mexico …and who wrote this little “ditty” praises himself in the first line of the article, then turns around and starts bashing the ACLU for defending “Nazi’s”, then the webpage article then moves to the discussion of how “false” Catholicism is…after setting the “tone” of the readers mind with totally unrelated nonsense about the ACLU and Nazi’s. Ahhhh, the WWII Nazi’s and the Communist Newspaper “Pravda” (Truth…??) would have paid this guy a fortune for his propaganda expertise.

You want more proof of lies, deceit, misrepresentation? Their not at all hard to find… Oh, one more for you:

thebereans.net/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=331

Just reading the header on this page should clarify any issues you have about whether or not there are people who lie and deceive others about the Catholic church. They even have a few “posers” who claim to be former Catholics…but they aren’t…and they show it in their statements.
 
RobHom said:
I have to agree with you. Perhaps a look at these sites may clarify some of the issue for the “doubter”.

contenterministries.org They think “everyone but them” is wrong. But Catholicism seems to be their favorite subject for propaganda and lies. They even have a section where they post “letters/emails” from Catholics and former Catholics (their claim) that would be amusing, even comical, if they were not so false.

erwm.com/CatholicIssues.htm You want prove proofs of misrepresentation…take a couple of hours, grab an ice cold coke, some popcorn, get comfortable and start clicking on the links.

challies.com/archives/000034.php

These people even stoop to virulently attacking Mother Teresa, and claim it was written by a former “Sister of Charity”! Their sites are rife with claims that articles were written by “former Catholics”, but then…I guess there are enough “gullibles” reading the trash who will actually believe it.

moriel.org/articles/discernment/catholicism/mike_gendron_catholicism_false.htm

This one is kinda “special” because the person that gave his little speech at the Baptist Student Union at the university in Las Cruces New Mexico …and who wrote this little “ditty” praises himself in the first line of the article, then turns around and starts bashing the ACLU for defending “Nazi’s”, then the webpage article then moves to the discussion of how “false” Catholicism is…after setting the “tone” of the readers mind with totally unrelated nonsense about the ACLU and Nazi’s. Ahhhh, the WWII Nazi’s and the Communist Newspaper “Pravda” (Truth…??) would have paid this guy a fortune for his propaganda expertise.

You want more proof of lies, deceit, misrepresentation? Their not at all hard to find… Oh, one more for you:

thebereans.net/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=331

Just reading the header on this page should clarify any issues you have about whether or not there are people who lie and deceive others about the Catholic church. They even have a few “posers” who claim to be former Catholics…but they aren’t…and they show it in their statements.
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This is disgusting. If this is what they want to call christianity they can keep it. I’ll stay a loving, open-minded, Catholic, thank you very much. :mad:

No wonder we have such a hard time reaching people these days. Hate doesn’t attract anybody.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,
Im glad you took the time to look at the sites:thumbsup: However, I told you you wouldnt agree with them.😉 For the simple reason that you believe in the CC. So, your response was typical and expected.😃

You know th OP question could be flipped around and asked about catholic apologetics as well.😉 But I do not think that they are lying. I think they think they are 100% correct. Just like I think the same of the protestant apologists. Yes one is spreading false doctrine but I do not think it is malicious or on purpose.The opposing side may think it is but that doesnt make it so. This battle is going to go on until Christ returns and then we will ALL KNOW the TRUTH. So until then --the battle continues:shrug: 😦

I know the one thing we can all agree on (I hope anyway) is that God is in control and He will work all of this out for His Glorification. AMEN!!!
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You’re missing the point. Of course Catholics and protestants disagree about what are the true doctrines. What I’m talking about is these protestant apologists’ gross distortions of objective facts which are, or should be, obvious to anyone, Catholic, protestant, Buddhist, atheist or whatever, who makes the slightest enquiry into the facts.

christiananswers.net’s bizarre calumnies that Catholics worship priests and saints;
that someone can become a Catholic priest and get a master’s degree in theology from a Catholic university and know virtually nothing of the Bible;
that Catholicism teaches that the Bible is **not **inerrant, that the Pope is above Jesus Christ, and that Christ’s death does **not **obtain forgiveness of our sins;
  • are not simply disagreements about doctrine.
The authors of these barefaced lies couldn’t possibly claim the excuse of naive ignorance, as many of them claim to have extensive education in the Catholic Church and they even quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, so obviously it would be very easy for them to flip to the index pages of the Catechism and “discover” that their claims about what the Church teaches are patently and ludicrously false.

So I put my plea again a final time: can anyone out there find any protestant apologetic against Catholicism which does not depend on gross distortions of objective facts of history and gross distortions of what Catholic doctrine is (regardless of whether the doctrine is true)? If not, this will confirm the conclusion I made in pre-internet days, that no such apologetic exists and it is apparently not possible for a protestant to produce one.
 
That’s the thing. Most of us do not believe that we are lying. We honestly believe that it is the truth. It is a revisionist sort of history riddled with conspiracy theories with the oppressor being the Catholic Church, and the “true” Church, the one the apostles mention in the Bible, are oppressed and the truth is not found again until the 1500’s.
 
murtad said:
You are being rude when you use the word “the Pope” to refer to the successor of Saint Peter. The proper salutation is His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI.
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As well as being dragged off-topic, you are also being silly and precious. There is absolutely nothing wrong with referring to “the Pope” and good Catholics do it all the time. You’d better put your own tagline into practice. (If you were correct the first thing you should do should be to tell the Pope to change the words of all the Eucharistic Prayers, which refer to “Benedict our Pope”. I understand the rubrics specifically tell the celebrant NOT to say the Pope’s regnal number nor attach any other title or salutation.)
 
desertwoman said:
That’s the thing. Most of us do not believe that we are lying. We honestly believe that it is the truth. It is a revisionist sort of history riddled with conspiracy theories with the oppressor being the Catholic Church, and the “true” Church, the one the apostles mention in the Bible, are oppressed and the truth is not found again until the 1500’s.
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Yes but (a) why would someone who is honestly searching for the truth willingly believe unfounded conspiracy theories for which there is no evidence and which every objective historian finds ludicrous?
and (b) What about the blatant lies about what the Catholic Church’s doctrines and practices are? These doctrines and practices are not hidden away, the Church does everything it can to make them available for all to see.

The inevitable conclusion is that no-one has any cogent arguments against the Church itself, only against a bizarre and fantastic portrayal of an imaginary “Catholic Church” which does not exist in real life.
 
Petergee said:
Yes but (a) why would someone who is honestly searching for the truth willingly believe unfounded conspiracy theories for which there is no evidence and which every objective historian finds ludicrous?

**Hello Petergee!! 🙂

With (a), we have various theories and so forth that people believe because it takes various truths and twist it. It’s just like the 911 conspiracy theories. Just play on our fears and inhibitions, and use circular logic and it will begin to make sense! Jack Chick is good at this, and I can attest for being sucked into Jack Chick’s conspiracy theories. It’s still hard to get away from. **

(b) What about the blatant lies about what the Catholic Church’s doctrines and practices are? These doctrines and practices are not hidden away, the Church does everything it can to make them available for all to see.

**I think this boils down to terms and meanings. A Catholic bowing down praying to Mary sounds like idolatry to us, but it is not to Catholics, and we just don’t see how. I guess being brought up in our tradition causes huge stumbling blocks for reconciliation.
**
The inevitable conclusion is that no-one has any cogent arguments against the Church itself, only against a bizarre and fantastic portrayal of an imaginary “Catholic Church” which does not exist in real life.
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Yep. We do not understand each other is the problem. The centuries that we spent apart, we grew into something else. We use the same words, but they mean different things to us such as praying, worshiping, and veneration etc… I guess we have to get on the same page there first and then some things can happen. But I believe that it is easier for an orthodox person to become Catholic than it is for us Protestants, for yall are kinda still on the same page.
 
Petergee said:
You’re missing the point. Of course Catholics and protestants disagree about what are the true doctrines. What I’m talking about is these protestant apologists’ gross distortions of objective facts which are, or should be, obvious to anyone, Catholic, protestant, Buddhist, atheist or whatever, who makes the slightest enquiry into the facts.

christiananswers.net’s bizarre calumnies that Catholics worship priests and saints;
that someone can become a Catholic priest and get a master’s degree in theology from a Catholic university and know virtually nothing of the Bible;
that Catholicism teaches that the Bible is **not **inerrant, that the Pope is above Jesus Christ, and that Christ’s death does **not **obtain forgiveness of our sins;
  • are not simply disagreements about doctrine.
The authors of these barefaced lies couldn’t possibly claim the excuse of naive ignorance, as many of them claim to have extensive education in the Catholic Church and they even quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, so obviously it would be very easy for them to flip to the index pages of the Catechism and “discover” that their claims about what the Church teaches are patently and ludicrously false.

So I put my plea again a final time: can anyone out there find any protestant apologetic against Catholicism which does not depend on gross distortions of objective facts of history and gross distortions of what Catholic doctrine is (regardless of whether the doctrine is true)? If not, this will confirm the conclusion I made in pre-internet days, that no such apologetic exists and it is apparently not possible for a protestant to produce one.
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point taken:thumbsup:
 
desertwoman said:
Yep. We do not understand each other is the problem. The centuries that we spent apart, we grew into something else. We use the same words, but they mean different things to us such as praying, worshiping, and veneration etc… I guess we have to get on the same page there first and then some things can happen. But I believe that it is easier for an orthodox person to become Catholic than it is for us Protestants, for yall are kinda still on the same page.
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You are very kind and generous, but I think that very few if any of these blatant lies can be explained away as simply a misunderstanding of the precise meanings of certain words. If the protestant apologists truly are “ex-Catholic priests” they would be well aware of the Catholic understandings and definitions of such words.

How could anyone think that Catholics “worship” their priests? Or assert that the Church teaches the exact opposite of what it plainly teaches, as shown for example in the Catechism?

How could anyone assert that a Catholic priest could be ignorant of the Bible? Anyone who looked up the freely available Canon Law of the Catholic Church would see that, not only is it compulsory for men to be taught a comprehensive program of Biblical studies before they can be ordained, but it is **compulsory **for **every **priest every day to read, pray, and meditate on the Bible passages in the Divine Office (Breviary) and to read, pray, meditate and preach directly on the Bible readings the Church sets for each day’s Mass, which together over every three years cover virtually the entire Bible? Priests are punished by the Church if they fail to do this. Not to mention that every Pope since long before we were born has been commanding every Catholic who possibly can to read the Bible every day.
 
jesuislemec said:
Here are more apologetic websites regarding Catholicism written by Protestants. I have yet to find an apologetic site written by Protestants that accurately describes the Catholic faith while disagreeing with it.

carm.org/catholic.htm
faithdefenders.com/ministry/articles/world_religions/roman_catholicism/
contenderministries.org/catholicism.php
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A
(“http://contenderministries.org/Catholicism/catholicview.php”) from the author of contenderministries.org ,
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“I have never attended a Catholic Mass. The first inside glimpse I got of Catholicism occurred during one of the memorial services following the terrorist attacks of 9/11.”
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There’s a lesson to be learnt here. :rolleyes:
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Proletarian,

Something frequently bothers me when discussing faith with non-Catholics. It seems that a few spend half their time being Christian and the other half being non-Catholic. I am called to be Christian 100% of the time.

Anyway, the spirit of division lead Luther away from the faith. Once having split away, there was a need to differentiate the new church from the original. Thus, five Sacraments go out the window; seven books of scripture (some of which Christ just MAY have read in the temple-who knows?) deleted; Apostolic succession eliminated; but by far the worst is the Baby was thrown out with the bath water. The Eucharist eliminated! The last communal action taken by Christ before his arrest now turned into essentially a memorial snack!

Pray Pray Pray for them. Set the example. Let them see our true faith.

In Christ our Savior.

Why follow a dead German when you can follow a live one?
 
po18guy said:
Proletarian,

Something frequently bothers me when discussing faith with non-Catholics. It seems that a few spend half their time being Christian and the other half being non-Catholic. I am called to be Christian 100% of the time.

Anyway, the spirit of division lead Luther away from the faith. Once having split away, there was a need to differentiate the new church from the original. Thus, five Sacraments go out the window; seven books of scripture (some of which Christ just MAY have read in the temple-who knows?) deleted; Apostolic succession eliminated; but by far the worst is the Baby was thrown out with the bath water. The Eucharist eliminated! The last communal action taken by Christ before his arrest now turned into essentially a memorial snack!

Pray Pray Pray for them. Set the example. Let them see our true faith.

In Christ our Savior.
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AMEN! But the question must be asked, is it possible for a Protestant not to be “anti-Catholic”, even on a subliminal level? A non-Catholic (even the ones that are trying to be “100% Christian”) must, by their very nature, oppose the Catholic Church in some form.
Why follow a dead German when you can follow a live one?
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:rotfl: Thats great! I’m definitely going to use that one.
 
Proletarian,

That is the question of the year. Protestants who treat the history of the church fairly are those who are converting to Catholicism. We have a chaplain at work who is a Seventh Day Adventist. I didn’t know about the virulent anti-Catholicism in that church. However, after evangelizing him in the guise of conversation, he was amazed to hear “a Catholic” talk the way the Holy Spirit did while using me. Was it the first time he actually heard from the Holy Spirit? Hearts are changed one at a time.

As to all those annoying anti-Catholic sites, they are fighting with one another over “doctrine” that they come up with themselves. Charity requires that I ignore their attacks and just fight the good fight.

Evil in this world is running rampant because the body of satan is unified while Christ’s Body is shattered into 29,000 pieces.

Gotta go. Time to go pray for today’s intentions. Christ’s peace, brother.
 
po18guy said:
Proletarian,

As to all those annoying anti-Catholic sites, they are fighting with one another over “doctrine” that they come up with themselves
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Catholics disagree with one another over many many things; Popes have provided a very active history of disagreeing with one another; and what is wrong with that?

It’s just unfortunate that when someone believes differently, or, when someone openly challenges our beliefs; that some want so desperately to malign their character and integrity with words like “hate.”

Catholics are “anti-Adventist” just going by your standards; however, I do not personally consider most Catholics as “anti-Adventist.”
 
Protestant101 said:
Catholics disagree with one another over many many things; Popes have provided a very active history of disagreeing with one another; and what is wrong with that?
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The difference is that once a matter is settled within The Catholic Church it is settled, period. There has never been disagreement between Popes on matters that have been officially proclaimed. Protestants however will always disagree because they have no authority.
 
Proletarian said:
The difference is that once a matter is settled within The Catholic Church it is settled, period. There has never been disagreement between Popes on matters that have been officially proclaimed. Protestants however will always disagree because they have no authority.
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This has not always been the case…fact.

If you would like to check out a very good website that is not slanderous or judgmental, please visit:

www.gotquestions.org

Peace
 
Protestant101,

Once the big split occurred, the need for the splitters to justify their actions took on a life of its own. They HAD to become anti-Catholic to have a reason for their own existence. Especially after the Catholic reformation occurred and the sins and abuses were cleansed. Neither the Catholic Church nor I are anti-anything, except satan. We are pro-truth. Not some of the truth, not most of the truth, but ALL of the truth. We simply believe that the fullness of truth remains within the church that Christ founded on Simon (Peter, Petros, Cephas) in Matthew 16:18.

Christ gave Peter, personally, power over sin and the keys to the gates of heaven. We find it impossible to blow off anything Christ said. Peter also had the power and authority to bind and loose on earth. What do you think that means? Maybe it refers to organizing Christ’s church, which was necessary if they were to “make disciples of every nation” Was Jesus joking around when he said this? Did God-in-Christ waste words? Life is short and eternity is forever. It is not worth messing with the faith that was Divinely revealed to the Apostles.

If you don’t believe that Peter was the first Pope, then what was he? He served for over 30 years before being martyred. Since Christ did not return in their lifetimes, don’t you think the Apostles wished to continue the church to future generations? How are you going to do that when your leader of the past 30+ years dies? He must have a successor if unity is to continue. And, so we have a leader. Do we disagree with his teaching? Our fallen, sinful human nature disagrees with the Lord Jesus himself! However, we are commanded to deny ourselves and submit to the Pope’s authority out of OBEDIENCE.

There is truth in EVERY Christian church. It is just that the church founded by Christ retains the fullness of truth. That is why it cannot and will not change-Christ cannot and will not change.

Please consider: Father Abraham’s’ faith was certainly tested, when commanded to slay Isaac. However, his OBEDIENCE was the larger test. I choose to be obedient. It’s not my church, my faith, my scripture-it’s God’s. I must conform to His will and that is not comfortable because He is perfect and I am sinful.

This ended up either way too long, or not long enough, but rest assured that I choose a church founded by God over any founded by man (or woman).

Keep seeking the truth in its fullness.

Christ’s peace be with you, my brother.
 
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