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SyCarl
Guest
I would note that 6 of these links are to the same site and another is a parody. I do know that there are some bad Protestant sites but I do think it is painting with too wide a brush to say all are bad.
Why do Protestant Apologists feel the need to lie about history and the Catholic Church?
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Proletarian
Guest
Thanks for pointing that out. I made that list quite quickly, sorry if there are some double ups. But we all know that if I took a few more minutes to run a search I’d find a dozen or more very quickly.
Everyone keeps saying that, but I’m yet to see an example of an honest Protestant apologetics resource.
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mozart-250
Guest
Oh…I would say that there are a number of Protestant apologists that are not fringe or wacky like “jesus-is-savior”.
For starters you could look at names on “jesus-is-savior” who are equally as apostate as the Catholic church. I know that names like Billy Graham, James Dobson, Chuch Colson, CS Lewis are not as widely known as the reputable authors of “jesus-is-savior.com”, but with a little education and digging you might get acquainted with them.
I have no desire to “make a Protestant” out of you.
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allischalmers
Guest
I have read Church history but I would never want to be Catholic. The Holy Spirit tells me to stay Baptist.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
What do you think of the protestant apologists on CAF?
What do you think of the protestant apologists on CAF?
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Fuerza
Guest
Don’t be so sure. I would have said the same thing about Jack Chick until I found out that he meant for people to take him seriously. Sadly, many do.
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Delphinus85
Guest
Actually, I went to a protestant school (Converted to catholicism halfway through) And I frequently heard sermons based around a lot of these ideas. It’s pretty common, at least in fundamentalist churches.
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estesbob
Guest
How do you know?
BTW-when you were reading Church history did you notice the lack of any Christian Churhs other than the Catholic Church for the first 1,500 years or so?
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exoflare
Guest
Yeah, no kidding… A lot of Fundamentalists seem to use the Holy Spirit as nothing more than a synonym for “my personal opinion”.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Most of the things mentioned by the OP are mentioned by Catholics on these fora. Maybe a search for them is in order.
Are Protestant sites slandering the CC - or merely speaking without knowledge ? If Catholics are able to excuse anti-Protestant mythology by pleading unintentional ignorance, perhaps Protestants can do the same.It’s bad morals to assume the worst of others, so I’ll assume that Protestants - or rather, those of them who bother to criticise the CC, for very few do; most have other things to occupy them - are speaking without knowledge, innocently, without knowing otherwise, because they have no reason to think they are mistaken. If we are severe in our judgements of others, we will be judged no less severely by God.
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Petergee
Guest
I’ve read quite a bit of Messrs Graham and Lewis and they confine themselves to apologetics for Christianity in general, not about any supposed errors in Catholic doctrines or practices. I have never seen anything from any of these gentlemen, or any other protestant, giving rational, factual arguments about why Catholicism is wrong. You have asserted that there are many such protestant apologists. If you continue refusing to give us even one link to such a site, you will excuse us poor Catholics for continuing to disbelieve that such a site, and such a protestant apologist, exists.
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mozart-250
Guest
Where have I asserted that there are many such Protestant apologists that give rational, factual arguments about why Catholicism is wrong? Please provide the quote so I can clarify what I said (with the internet being a written medium I can miscommunicate). Otherwise I accept your apology.
The Protestant apologists that I personally respect are not preoccupied with Catholicism either way.
My only assertion has been that the web sites provided in this list are on the wacky fringe of Protestants/evangelicals. If you think they are mainstream I suppose that is your prerogative. But then you are saying that mainstream Protestants believe that 9-11 was a government conspiracy and Billy Graham and CS Lewis are flaming liberals. I don’t think that is true, but whatever.
If the respected creators of jesus-is-savior.com are mainstream Protestants, then I am proud to be on the wacky leftwing fringe with Dr. Billy Graham and CS Lewis.
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Petergee
Guest
Still waiting for any reference to a protestant site which points out the “errors” of Catholicism without resorting to a gross misrepresentation of facts … waiting … waiting …
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kedera
Guest
Thank you for this statement :hug3: I mostly just read what everyone says, and today it seems like all I have been reading makes me feel kinda…judged.
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DixiesFinest
Guest
Many of the things good ole deacon fred said in his “sermon” can be found in Jack Chicks (and other real fundamentalists) website articles and tracts.
For example:
“If that doesn’t get your goat, Catholics are so Bible illiterate they even believe their priests have the power to forgive their sins! Mark 2:7 is pretty clear about who has the power to forgive sins, folks. It says, “Why doth this man (Catholic Priests) speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but GOD ONLY.” Oh, your typical Catholic will spit off nursery school rhetoric about “Father such and such is not really forgiving me.” Well, what do Catholics know anyway?”
-Deacon Fred
chick.com/reading/tracts/0082/0082_01.asp
(near the middle of the page, where JESVS quotes St Mark 2:7 to disprove a priest forgiving one of sins)
On an ironic side note, St Mark 2:7 is a quotation of the pharisees attempting to call JESVS a blasphemer.
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sanblasboy13
Guest
Simple: No lie, then no Protestant.
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allischalmers
Guest
When you yield your will to the will of God you know when the Lord is leading you. Maybe you have never experenced that.
There have alway been groups of people that have been Christains who have not been a part of the catholic church or in agreement with it. Of course they were all distroyed by the catholic church when they were found.
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estesbob
Guest
Problem is the Spririt appears to have led Protestants in some 30,000 different directions. How can that be?
Could you give us some information on these alleged Churchs=especially the doctrines they adhered to. Thanks!
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Proletarian
Guest
Thanks, I needed a good giggle.
It’s ironic that every one of these heretical groups held beliefs that mainstream Protestants would condemn today. If Protestants believe these cults represent an ancient form of “biblical Christianity” they are sorely mistaken.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. This manipulation of History has clearly been accepted by the laity.
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sanblasboy13
Guest
Could you give us some information on these alleged Churchs=especially the doctrines they adhered to. Thanks!
Well they are what you would call heresies. Many of them too.
The Circumcisers (1st Century)
The Circumcision heresy may be summed up in the words of Acts 15:1: “But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’”
Many of the early Christians were Jews, who brought to the Christian faith many of their former practices. They recognized in Jesus the Messiah predicted by the prophets and the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Because circumcision had been required in the Old Testament for membership in God’s covenant, many thought it would also be required for membership in the New Covenant that Christ had come to inaugurate. They believed one must be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law to come to Christ. In other words, one had to become a Jew to become a Christian.
But God made it clear to Peter in Acts 10 that Gentiles are acceptable to God and may be baptized and become Christians without circumcision. The same teaching was vigorously defended by Paul in his epistles to the Romans and the Galatians—to areas where the Circumcision heresy had spread.
Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries)
“Matter is evil!” was the cry of the Gnostics. This idea was borrowed from certain Greek philosophers. It stood against Catholic teaching, not only because it contradicts Genesis 1:31 (“And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good”) and other scriptures, but because it denies the Incarnation. If matter is evil, then Jesus Christ could not be true God and true man, for Christ is in no way evil. Thus many Gnostics denied the Incarnation, claiming that Christ only appeared to be a man, but that his humanity was an illusion. Some Gnostics, recognizing that the Old Testament taught that God created matter, claimed that the God of the Jews was an evil deity who was distinct from the New Testament God of Jesus Christ. They also proposed belief in many divine beings, known as “aeons,” who mediated between man and the ultimate, unreachable God. The lowest of these aeons, the one who had contact with men, was supposed to be Jesus Christ.
Montanism (Late 2nd Century)
Montanus began his career innocently enough through preaching a return to penance and fervor. His movement also emphasized the continuance of miraculous gifts, such as speaking in tongues and prophecy. However, he also claimed that his teachings were above those of the Church, and soon he began to teach Christ’s imminent return in his home town in Phrygia. There were also statements that Montanus himself either was, or at least specially spoke for, the Paraclete that Jesus had promised would come (in reality, the Holy Spirit).
Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)
The Sabellianists taught that Jesus Christ and God the Father were not distinct persons, but two aspects or offices of one person. According to them, the three persons of the Trinity exist only in God’s relation to man, not in objective reality.
Arianism (4th Century)
Arius taught that Christ was a creature made by God. By disguising his heresy using orthodox or near-orthodox terminology, he was able to sow great confusion in the Church. He was able to muster the support of many bishops, while others excommunicated him.
Arianism was solemnly condemned in 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, which defined the divinity of Christ, and in 381 at the First Council of Constantinople, which defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit. These two councils gave us the Nicene creed, which Catholics recite at Mass every Sunday.
Pelagianism (5th Century)
Pelagius denied that we inherit original sin from Adam’s sin in the Garden and claimed that we become sinful only through the bad example of the sinful community into which we are born. Conversely, he denied that we inherit righteousness as a result of Christ’s death on the cross and said that we become personally righteous by instruction and imitation in the Christian community, following the example of Christ. Pelagius stated that man is born morally neutral and can achieve heaven under his own powers. According to him, God’s grace is not truly necessary, but merely makes easier an otherwise difficult task.
Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century)
After Augustine refuted the teachings of Pelagius, some tried a modified version of his system. This, too, ended in heresy by claiming that humans can reach out to God under their own power, without God’s grace; that once a person has entered a state of grace, one can retain it through one’s efforts, without further grace from God; and that natural human effort alone can give one some claim to receiving grace, though not strictly merit it.
There were many more, but i just named a few.
Well they are what you would call heresies. Many of them too.
The Circumcisers (1st Century)
The Circumcision heresy may be summed up in the words of Acts 15:1: “But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’”
Many of the early Christians were Jews, who brought to the Christian faith many of their former practices. They recognized in Jesus the Messiah predicted by the prophets and the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Because circumcision had been required in the Old Testament for membership in God’s covenant, many thought it would also be required for membership in the New Covenant that Christ had come to inaugurate. They believed one must be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law to come to Christ. In other words, one had to become a Jew to become a Christian.
But God made it clear to Peter in Acts 10 that Gentiles are acceptable to God and may be baptized and become Christians without circumcision. The same teaching was vigorously defended by Paul in his epistles to the Romans and the Galatians—to areas where the Circumcision heresy had spread.
Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries)
“Matter is evil!” was the cry of the Gnostics. This idea was borrowed from certain Greek philosophers. It stood against Catholic teaching, not only because it contradicts Genesis 1:31 (“And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good”) and other scriptures, but because it denies the Incarnation. If matter is evil, then Jesus Christ could not be true God and true man, for Christ is in no way evil. Thus many Gnostics denied the Incarnation, claiming that Christ only appeared to be a man, but that his humanity was an illusion. Some Gnostics, recognizing that the Old Testament taught that God created matter, claimed that the God of the Jews was an evil deity who was distinct from the New Testament God of Jesus Christ. They also proposed belief in many divine beings, known as “aeons,” who mediated between man and the ultimate, unreachable God. The lowest of these aeons, the one who had contact with men, was supposed to be Jesus Christ.
Montanism (Late 2nd Century)
Montanus began his career innocently enough through preaching a return to penance and fervor. His movement also emphasized the continuance of miraculous gifts, such as speaking in tongues and prophecy. However, he also claimed that his teachings were above those of the Church, and soon he began to teach Christ’s imminent return in his home town in Phrygia. There were also statements that Montanus himself either was, or at least specially spoke for, the Paraclete that Jesus had promised would come (in reality, the Holy Spirit).
Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)
The Sabellianists taught that Jesus Christ and God the Father were not distinct persons, but two aspects or offices of one person. According to them, the three persons of the Trinity exist only in God’s relation to man, not in objective reality.
Arianism (4th Century)
Arius taught that Christ was a creature made by God. By disguising his heresy using orthodox or near-orthodox terminology, he was able to sow great confusion in the Church. He was able to muster the support of many bishops, while others excommunicated him.
Arianism was solemnly condemned in 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, which defined the divinity of Christ, and in 381 at the First Council of Constantinople, which defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit. These two councils gave us the Nicene creed, which Catholics recite at Mass every Sunday.
Pelagianism (5th Century)
Pelagius denied that we inherit original sin from Adam’s sin in the Garden and claimed that we become sinful only through the bad example of the sinful community into which we are born. Conversely, he denied that we inherit righteousness as a result of Christ’s death on the cross and said that we become personally righteous by instruction and imitation in the Christian community, following the example of Christ. Pelagius stated that man is born morally neutral and can achieve heaven under his own powers. According to him, God’s grace is not truly necessary, but merely makes easier an otherwise difficult task.
Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century)
After Augustine refuted the teachings of Pelagius, some tried a modified version of his system. This, too, ended in heresy by claiming that humans can reach out to God under their own power, without God’s grace; that once a person has entered a state of grace, one can retain it through one’s efforts, without further grace from God; and that natural human effort alone can give one some claim to receiving grace, though not strictly merit it.
There were many more, but i just named a few.
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