Why do Protestant Apologists feel the need to lie about history and the Catholic Church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Proletarian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Obviously neither White nor his Catholic opponents regard them as fine nuances. The latter might be too polite to actually use the word “lies” but that’s surely what they are saying. And as I said ,these two articles are among many which detail the many not-so-little White lies.
Well if Catholic Answers doesn’t call them lies, I don’t see why you should. I’ll believe Catholic Answers thank you (actually I don’t know enough about the issue under discussion to believe anybody).

And from my perspective, anything I don’t understand or know enough about is a “fine nuance”.🙂

And I would agree with Edwin that the internet is not the best place for apologetic sources anyway.
 
Well if Catholic Answers doesn’t call them lies, I don’t see why you should. I’ll believe Catholic Answers thank you (actually I don’t know enough about the issue under discussion to believe anybody).

And from my perspective, anything I don’t understand or know enough about is a “fine nuance”.🙂

And I would agree with Edwin that the internet is not the best place for apologetic sources anyway.
Some of the resources are questionable but I tend to look whether these apologetic website if they are in uniform with teachings of the Catholic Church.
 
The queen acts an intercessor to the King in behalf of the people. The New Testament is hidden in the OT said:
Manny, this is very troubling to me to be honest with you and it always has been. Even when I was Catholic I was never shown where anyone other than Jesus himself could be an intercessor. The Scriptures Clearly state that, Jesus HIMSELF said that! As far as the woman in Revelation. If it were really Mary, wouldn’t it be important enough for it to actually say Mary? I’m not convinced at all. Mary being a saint is Biblical. Mary being supernatural, performing miracles as at Fatima, queen of Heaven, mother of us all, mother of the church, none of that is Biblical. None of that can be proven so.
 
Even when I was Catholic I was never shown where anyone other than Jesus himself could be an intercessor.
So you never pray for anyone other than yourself? If you do, then you are an intercessor. Why can you be an intercessor, but the Virgin Mary can’t?

Edwin
 
Manny, this is very troubling to me to be honest with you and it always has been. Even when I was Catholic I was never shown where anyone other than Jesus himself could be an intercessor. The Scriptures Clearly state that, Jesus HIMSELF said that! As far as the woman in Revelation. If it were really Mary, wouldn’t it be important enough for it to actually say Mary? I’m not convinced at all. Mary being a saint is Biblical. Mary being supernatural, performing miracles as at Fatima, queen of Heaven, mother of us all, mother of the church, none of that is Biblical. None of that can be proven so.
The point you seem to be missing, if I may say, is that Scripture is only part of the deposit of faith. “Sola Scriptura” is something created by the Reformers, but something that they could ever prove. Luther picked and chose what ‘scriptures’ were part of the deposit of faith, and Luther decided how, what he kept, was to be understood.

We all quote from the Fathers, like St. Augustine, St. Jerome, Gregory the Great. You might even quote Martin Luther. That’s giving credence to the topic of Tradition.

The Tradition of the Church is large, cause we’ve been around for 2,000. We keep what is doctrinally correct, and throw out the rest. Some of what Origen or Tertullian had to say is rejected, and it is an example how the Church defends the deposit of the faith.

Mary is the Mother of God. All grace and priviledge has been given her by God. We just recognize that, and have been doing so for 2,000 years.

It is common sense, when you need something from someone, you appeal everywhere to have intercession to obtain it. So too with prayer to Jesus. We ask his Mother to intercede for us. What is so wrong with that?

peace,
mgrfin
 
So you never pray for anyone other than yourself? If you do, then you are an intercessor. Why can you be an intercessor, but the Virgin Mary can’t?

Edwin
She could have when she was here! But she is no longer with us.
 
Manny, this is very troubling to me to be honest with you and it always has been. Even when I was Catholic I was never shown where anyone other than Jesus himself could be an intercessor. The Scriptures Clearly state that, Jesus HIMSELF said that! As far as the woman in Revelation. If it were really Mary, wouldn’t it be important enough for it to actually say Mary? I’m not convinced at all. Mary being a saint is Biblical. Mary being supernatural, performing miracles as at Fatima, queen of Heaven, mother of us all, mother of the church, none of that is Biblical. None of that can be proven so.
But that’s the trouble with your approach: you never read the Bible, you read a Protestant Bible, and you never read it, you read a translation of it.

Then you pretend to understand it–written in languages you do not know-- based upon whatever flies into your head.

By the way, the Bible is not biblical: it did not write itself and did not drop from heaven. Christ did not have the NT, nor did any of the apostles.

So you’ve got the explaining to do, not Catholics.
 
She could have when she was here! But she is no longer with us.
Speaking strictly for yourself, I assure you. There are also those who deny Christ. It doesn’t change reality. If only “bible” Christians could experience more than the sacred Cliffs Notes about His life, they would understand (John 21:25). Praying for Christian unity.

Chist’s peace to all of you.
 
here’s the problem. You answer the question with an open ended question. How do you know that there is even a queen of Heaven? Scripture doesn’t mention it. The only thing that you offer is an aaumption of what God did or will do. This is far from being truth. Far from it.
Nella, I went to a lot of trouble retrieving this from a previous post.

This is the second time I am posting this link to refute your ascertation that there is no “Queen of Heaven”

.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp

Now, do you just refuse to read anything that is not in line with your pre-concieved notions?

Or do you choose to ignore anything that smacks of TRUTH?
 
She could have when she was here! But she is no longer with us.
But that is a different point. Nella said that only Christ can be an intercessor. You say that people other than Christ can be intercessors, but only in this life. It’s a completely different argument.

Edwin
 
But that is a different point. Nella said that only Christ can be an intercessor. You say that people other than Christ can be intercessors, but only in this life. It’s a completely different argument.

Edwin
Your right, my guess is Nella meant mediator!
 
Even when I was Catholic I was never shown where anyone other than Jesus himself could be an intercessor. The Scriptures Clearly state that, Jesus HIMSELF said that!

.
Well have I got news for you: I AM AN INTERCESSOR 👍

A collegue at work wasn’t getting along with management too well so I interceded on his behalf and was able to reconcile them.

Christ said: ‘blessed are the peacemakers’. I do not think He was referring to Samuel Colt! 😛 Therefore He must have been referring to Intercessors 🙂
 
Manny, this is very troubling to me to be honest with you and it always has been. Even when I was Catholic I was never shown where anyone other than Jesus himself could be an intercessor. The Scriptures Clearly state that, Jesus HIMSELF said that! As far as the woman in Revelation. If it were really Mary, wouldn’t it be important enough for it to actually say Mary? I’m not convinced at all. Mary being a saint is Biblical. Mary being supernatural, performing miracles as at Fatima, queen of Heaven, mother of us all, mother of the church, none of that is Biblical. None of that can be proven so.
Nella, brace yourself! You are still Catholic :eek: . You are just not practicing. We all invite you back to full communion, praying for you. You have an inquiring, seeking mind. If you were completely satisfied with your current faith tradition, I don’t think you would be here asking questions.

If you can read the post of Revelation 12:1-6, it might make a little more sense to you. I honestly don’t know how else you can read this. It doesn’t name Mary, you say? Neither did the Angel Gabriel use her name-he addresed her as “Full of Grace” (Luke 1:28). NO ONE ELSE in scripture was ever called that. 👍

The last physical act Christ did before dying was to give Mary to his beloved disciple, John (John 19:26-27) as his mother, and John to Mary as her son. Please meditiate on this, as everything Christ did was for a heavenly reason.

Please keep seeking the truth.

Christ’s peace be with you.
 
Doesn’t the Book of Rev. talk about the Angels being intercessors and that they take our prayers and put them before The Lord?
 
Manny, this is very troubling to me to be honest with you and it always has been. Even when I was Catholic I was never shown where anyone other than Jesus himself could be an intercessor.
It is apparent you weren’t catechism well enough of the faith to know this so you departed from your Catholic upbringing.
The Scriptures Clearly state that, Jesus HIMSELF said that!
So did his Apostle of the Gentile Paul. Paul wrote in the 1 Tim 2:10 that it as good and acceptable to God.
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus
6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times. 7 Where unto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle, (I say the truth, I lie not,) a doctor of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 8 I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention. 9 In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire, 10 But as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works.
Mary is role as a intercession is no different than me asking you to pray for me. Our death does not separate us from the Body of Christ. Each of us has a role to take part in taking care of one another. This is the role Mary, and the other saints have. In fact, you did ask if you could pray for my behalf. How is that any different than me asking Mary the same thing?

I could have willing say to you. “Don’t pray for me. I can go to God directly.” Second, our death here on earth does not separate us from the Communion of Saints. We become very much a part of it.
As far as the woman in Revelation. If it were really Mary, wouldn’t it be important enough for it to actually say Mary? I’m not convinced at all. Mary being a saint is Biblical. Mary being supernatural, performing miracles as at Fatima, queen of Heaven, mother of us all, mother of the church, none of that is Biblical. None of that can be proven so.
Mary herself did not perform miracles. It is God work. Much like the Apostle did in their time. In the Bible, Peter raise the dead, and heal the sick as well as other Apostles.

The Queenship of Mary is important. In the Book of Revelation Satan wage war with the offspring of the woman. We are her offspring. We know that through our baptism we are made to be brother and sister in Christ, because he is our brother and savior. Since Mary is His Mother, we too are her spiritual children.

In Revelation we read the following:

And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 12:17.

Doesn’t this sound very much like Christians? We are the spiritual children of Mary. You on your part decided not to acknowledge this, I do.

I don’t think heaven only have God there. There are angels, saints, and God. It is not a lonely place. This doesn’t make any sense either because in the Early post you noted that you pray the rosary. I find you completely at odds with yourself.
 
Well if Catholic Answers doesn’t call them lies, I don’t see why you should. I’ll believe Catholic Answers thank you (actually I don’t know enough about the issue under discussion to believe anybody).
Well they do call him “just plain wrong”.
And I would agree with Edwin that the internet is not the best place for apologetic sources anyway.
That’s just the thing. Sure there is a lot of junk on the internet, but I have found 100 times more good solid rational and readable Catholic apologetics onthe internet than I have found in many years of searching through other sources. (OK the fact that I’m a cheapskate and don’t want to spend a lot of money on books etc has retarded my non-internet quest.) But there is so much good Catholic apologetics on the internet. Why does there seem to be no good apologetics against Catholicism on the internet?
 
Well they do call him “just plain wrong”.
That’s just the thing. Sure there is a lot of junk on the internet, but I have found 100 times more good solid rational and readable Catholic apologetics onthe internet than I have found in many years of searching through other sources. (OK the fact that I’m a cheapskate and don’t want to spend a lot of money on books etc has retarded my non-internet quest.) But there is so much good Catholic apologetics on the internet. Why does there seem to be no good apologetics against Catholicism on the internet?
I think Edwin and Zooey nailed this one.

There are good Protestant/Evangelical apologetics. I could cite Josh McDowell and Ravi Zacharius off the bat but I am sure there are others.

Now I went to their respective web sites and was underwhelmed. I guess to these guys the internet is less important thant the books they write and the engagements they speak at. That’s ok.
But I am somewhat familiar with their writings, and they really are not concerned with Catholicism.

The point is that to the best Protestant apologists, Catholicism is logically just another denomination that they partially disagree with. But these type of apologists really aren’t concerned with other Christian denominations. They would rather spend their energies converting the heathen.

Therefore the only thing that is left is those of the ilk that believe you are the heathen. The web sites initially cited are representative of that ilk.

Now if you go to these websites you will find that great liberals like Billy Graham and James Dobson are just as apostate as the dreaded Catholics. So either Billy Graham and James Dobson and the other great liberals exposed by these sites are wacky or these websites are wacky.

Hmm…guess who I would put my money on.
 
Manny, this is very troubling to me to be honest with you and it always has been. Even when I was Catholic I was never shown where anyone other than Jesus himself could be an intercessor. The Scriptures Clearly state that, Jesus HIMSELF said that!
We are all called to be “Christ like”… to do as Christ would and did do to the best of our abillities.

I believe everyone is called to be an intercessor, yes EVERYONE.

Luke 22:31-32 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have **Prayed for you **that your faith may not fail,and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give to you,that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

These passages say to me that Jesus prayed for Peter out of love for him, and through the new commandments given he is saying love others as I have loved you…

Therefore pray for all your brothers and sisters… friend or foe. Ie: be an intercessor.
 
Your right, my guess is Nella meant mediator!
Yes, but Mary and other saints are mediators in Catholic theology in the sense of “intercessors,” so I actually think Nella is cutting across some terminological confusion and laying bare the problem with the Protestant critique here.

Edwin
 
I think Edwin and Zooey nailed this one.

There are good Protestant/Evangelical apologetics. I could cite Josh McDowell and Ravi Zacharius off the bat but I am sure there are others.

Now I went to their respective web sites and was underwhelmed. I guess to these guys the internet is less important thant the books they write and the engagements they speak at. That’s ok.
But I am somewhat familiar with their writings, and they really are not concerned with Catholicism.

The point is that to the best Protestant apologists, Catholicism is logically just another denomination that they partially disagree with. But these type of apologists really aren’t concerned with other Christian denominations. They would rather spend their energies converting the heathen.

Therefore the only thing that is left is those of the ilk that believe you are the heathen. The web sites initially cited are representative of that ilk.

Now if you go to these websites you will find that great liberals like Billy Graham and James Dobson are just as apostate as the dreaded Catholics. So either Billy Graham and James Dobson and the other great liberals exposed by these sites are wacky or these websites are wacky.

Hmm…guess who I would put my money on.
OK, but if I were a heathen and they were trying to convert me, my obvious questions would be:

"Why should I believe Christianity is true when you Christians can’t even agree unamimously on almost anything amongst yourselves about how one should be a Christian?

Why should I join your denomination and not one of the thousands of others whose beliefs contradict yours? Especially when your denomination is one of the smaller and newer ones?

Are you really telling me that all the contradictions between different denominations don’t matter, as long as someone is some type of Christian then anything else they do is valid and okay and truthful?
If these differences aren’t important why did the people who founded your denomination break away from the Catholics in the first place? And why don’t you join up with them and all the other Christians now, and just throw out all those unimportant things you disagree with them on?

In short how can all or any of these types of Christianity be true when they contradict each other? How can truth contradict truth?"

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate that these guys are not trying to convert Catholics, but to say they “are not concerned with Catholicism” is a cop-out. I can appreciate someone like CS Lewis who as he put it, takes his readers to the vestibule of Christianity and leaves them to choose which door to take, but one must choose a door.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top