Why do Protestant Apologists feel the need to lie about history and the Catholic Church?

[Sixtus]

The fact of he matter is that in-fighting serves no-one but satan.

Folk DO listen to what Protestants etc are saying. They may not agree or know anything about the subject, but listen they do, and use it against Christianity.

Only last Wednesday an acquaintance told me ‘the only thing he has against Christianity is Islam’…‘how did Islamic Christians justify blowing themsevles up and slaughtering innoecent people’.

I explained that actually Islam is a seperate religion to Christianity but /my opinion’ fell on deaf ears. He blamed all the troubles of the Middle East etc on Christians whom he was convinced were the founders of Islam.

He understandably said that if he had his way he would have everyone who professed religion, to be interred in the interests of public safety.

If folk cannot differentiate between Islam and Christianity, how much less bikering and in-fighting within Christianity.

 

[Zooey]

If a heathen said “OK I think I’m ready to believe in Christ, but there are so many denominations and their different beliefs are so confusing and contradictory. Which one should I choose? How should I decide between them? Or should I just pick one at random because the differences bewteeen them are all about minor things which don’t really matter?”
What would a moderate mainstream protestant apologist say?

That’s a pretty artificial situation. Generally people come to Christ through the witness of Christians and accept the form of Christianity through which they were evangelized.

In the hypothetical case you mention, I’d say, “Be Catholic.”

Edwin

Gotta agree. Especially since, in this case, it appears that the existence of different Christian bodies is a hindrance to this person, I’d suggest the Catholic Church.

I do agree with Edwin in that converts generally follow those doing the converting.

But this is an interesting hypothetical nonetheless.

Certainly I would welcome him to my church, well aware however, that this might not be the will of God for this particular person.

If this convert had a background of any of the denominations in my area, I might also suggest a denomination compatible with his background.

If this convert had absolutely no Christian background, while welcoming him to my church, I would also give him the names of the 10-12 other Trininitarian churches in my area (I might however steer clear of the 1-2 churches in my area that are overtly liberal). I would tell him that he most certainly could not go wrong selecting any of these churches and would assure him that the Holy Spirit would most certainly guide him wherever he is to end up.

Again, agreed. And I think this would be the same thing that most nonCatholic Christians that I know would do…
As I say, its a different paradigm from what Catholics have, so it seems, to some at least, counterintuitive, to tell someone he might be happier at a different church.
But I’m just concerned with more people becoming Christian. Not Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptist, or Catholic.
If my new neighbor should ask me, "Where is the nearest [insert name of church], I am very happy to direct him to any of the above.
Now, if I’m asked about Methodist congregations, I will cheerily give him the name of my own…always recognizing, that not every person is going to be happy at my church. (Too liberal for some, too conservative for others…).
Frankly, it’d just be a relief to have a neighbor who wants to go to church at all, anyhow…instead of, say, the nearest pitbull fighting arena. (Which is what I had the last time…)

 

[Delphinus85]

Gotta agree. Especially since, in this case, it appears that the existence of different Christian bodies is a hindrance to this person, I’d suggest the Catholic Church.

Again, agreed. And I think this would be the same thing that most nonCatholic Christians that I know would do…
As I say, its a different paradigm from what Catholics have, so it seems, to some at least, counterintuitive, to tell someone he might be happier at a different church.
But I’m just concerned with more people becoming Christian. Not Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptist, or Catholic.
If my new neighbor should ask me, "Where is the nearest [insert name of church], I am very happy to direct him to any of the above.
Now, if I’m asked about Methodist congregations, I will cheerily give him the name of my own…always recognizing, that not every person is going to be happy at my church. (Too liberal for some, too conservative for others…).
Frankly, it’d just be a relief to have a neighbor who wants to go to church at all, anyhow…instead of, say, the nearest pitbull fighting arena. (Which is what I had the last time…)

Too liberal? Too conservative? I can see that if we are talking about worship styles, but…Jesus is truth. And truth is truth is truth, and there can be only one, and it’s not up to us to “find the truth that is best for us.” This is one of the things that caused me to leave protestantism. I started as a non christian, and joined a pentecostal church. All was well until I discovered (and was told) that any church is okay, all is as the Holy Spirit decides is best for each individual, but there were BIG disagreements on BASIC fudamentals of faith. This isn’t really congruent with Jesus’ “I am the way, the truth, and the life” and the “truth” wasn’t giving me answers. The Bible was telling me that God was absolute truth, but protestantism was telling me that truth and morality is relevant. I even had a pastor tell me that if your church disapproves of masturbation, to just find a church that is okay with it, because the holy spirit wants you there if this is such a stumbling block. I can tell you that as a new convert to christianity, it’s quite confusing. ANd frustrating, because you just came from a life of “it’s all relative to YOU” and you can pick a church or “truth” like you choose from a buffet dinner. You came to Christ seeking truth and light, not more hazy mists of “do what is right for you” because as a convert you are painfully aware that you can’t judge for yourself, and that’s why you need God. A lot of the people I know who convert either bump around different churches their whole lives, go gung ho in ONE church and close their ears to anything else (and this makes them rather unpleasant), or they give up altogether.

 

[qui_est_ce]

That’s a pretty artificial situation. Generally people come to Christ through the witness of Christians and accept the form of Christianity through which they were evangelized.

In the hypothetical case you mention, I’d say, “Be Catholic.”

Edwin

Edwin, don’t you think that if you know the truth, you would want to be in truth? Think about the Eucharist. If it really is the body and blood of Christ, wouldn’t you want to be in the Church the celebrates it? What about the the other Sacraments? You are a well-educated

I am a cradle Catholic, never had doubts about my religion, but now, the older I am, the more I read, I feel I am reading myself into the CC. I have been reborn Catholic in Christ Renews His Parish Retreats as well.

Catholicism is for rich or poor, educated and illiterate. There is something in it that touches and feeds the souls of the diversity of mankind. This is because it is Truth. We are fully free when we live in Christ and in the truth. Maybe all Catholics cannot argue their faith. I think of the simple faith of so many immigrants here in St. Louis, praying their Rosaries, attending daily mass. They are drawn by the Eucharist. They wouldn’t be able to explain it, yet they are great witnesses to the faith.

I, too would like to see a defense of any Protestant demonimation that does not include mistruths about the Doctrines of the CC.

God Bless all who have contributed to this thread.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Edwin, don’t you think that if you know the truth, you would want to be in truth? Think about the Eucharist. If it really is the body and blood of Christ, wouldn’t you want to be in the Church the celebrates it? What about the the other Sacraments? You are a well-educated

I meant to continue along the educated part, but got distracted (was it the HS)?

Edwin, I have read your posts on various threads, you are an intelligent and well read person. You know your histoy. I believe you specialize in studying the Reformation and ML? I have a hard time understanding how anyone who studies history and the Church Fathers can keep themselves away from the Catholic Church, warts and all (and there are many)

Can you explain to me why you are NOT Catholic (yet)?

 

[Contarini]

I meant to continue along the educated part, but got distracted (was it the HS)?

Edwin, I have read your posts on various threads, you are an intelligent and well read person. You know your histoy. I believe you specialize in studying the Reformation and ML? I have a hard time understanding how anyone who studies history and the Church Fathers can keep themselves away from the Catholic Church, warts and all (and there are many)

Well, there are lots of people far more learned on these subjects than I am who seem to feel no desire to be Catholic. So I think that’s a bit of a red herring.

Can you explain to me why you are NOT Catholic (yet)?

Because deciding that the Reformation schism was unjustified is not enough. The Catholic Church condemned a lot of Protestant ideas, not all of which am I convinced were wrong. (This includes some later developments, such as women’s ordination, which as I see it is a development from the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers.) And, even more seriously from my perspective (though the last time I said this it started a flame war with Teflon!), evangelical Protestant piety has developed a rich heritage which I do not want to abandon. In the case of corporate reunion, we wouldn’t have to. But individual conversion requires a much higher bar, which I have never quite been able to meet.

Edwin

 

[AgnosTheist]

Well, there are lots of people far more learned on these subjects than I am who seem to feel no desire to be Catholic.

Your knowledge and sincerity have sure earned my respect. God bless you, man.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Because deciding that the Reformation schism was unjustified is not enough. The Catholic Church condemned a lot of Protestant ideas, not all of which am I convinced were wrong. (This includes some later developments, such as women’s ordination, which as I see it is a development from the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers.) And, even more seriously from my perspective (though the last time I said this it started a flame war with Teflon!), evangelical Protestant piety has developed a rich heritage which I do not want to abandon. In the case of corporate reunion, we wouldn’t have to. But individual conversion requires a much higher bar, which I have never quite been able to meet.

Edwin

I think this is as close as we can get to a Protestant apologetic explaining Protestantism without relying on mistruths of the CC.

My answer would have to be the cc is not wrong on the women’s ordination and other Protestant ideas she has condemned.

And that my friends is the beginning of a whole new thread.

Care to start one Edwin?

 

[St_Violet]

Well I wouldn’t mind having female priest in our Churches but at the same time I don’t think it was wrong to decide not to ordain them, after all Like Pope John Paul II said, Christ disciples were all males, I think many females play a unique within our Church today anyways and often times are more well respected then priests.

The Church has my support either way

 

[Atemi]

Nowhere in this thread nor in modern cc apologetics is misinformation or lies spread.

I have been doing this too long to take this seriously.

PS - to be labelled an anti-Catholic, one need not do anything more than reject Catholic doctrine as false.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I have been doing this too long to take this seriously.

Really? Where in this thread has a Catholic mistrepresented facts? Which Catholic Apologist misrepresented? Quotes or links please.

 

[mercygate]

I think similar things can be said of any apologist. There are good and bad Protestant apologists and good and bad Catholic apologists.

Agreed. I wouldn’t call the rabid anti-Catholics “Protestant apologists.” Good Protestants have a grip on history and know that there is no denying that the early Church was, ahem, One and that the historical connection to the Catholic Church today is part of that thread. They might believe that the Church went “wrong” but they also recognize that at least the first four ecumenical councils are “the real deal.” Heck: Baptists believe that Mary is the Mother of God!

Good Protestant apologists are among the strongest defenders of Christianity in this post-Christian, neo-Pagan, Islamicizing world. We should be linking elbows with 'em and preaching the Gospel.

They only wax anti-Catholic when they come up against one of the dividing doctrines. Makes me nuts when they do because these guys MUST know better.

The anti-Catholic nut cases need to be countered. But we shouldn’t be obsessed with 'em. Responsible Protestants know those guys are screwy.

 

[mercygate]

Arrogance runs like water in here.

Oh, the irony.

 

[mgrfin]

I think this is as close as we can get to a Protestant apologetic explaining Protestantism without relying on mistruths of the CC.

My answer would have to be the cc is not wrong on the women’s ordination and other Protestant ideas she has condemned.

And that my friends is the beginning of a whole new thread.

Care to start one Edwin?

Apparently “evangelical Protestant piety” is so important that it trumps the truth.

peace
mgrfin

 

[mercygate]

Yes, and I have just had this argument with an old and venerable Anglican minister, whose stubborness (or whatever) beggared belief. The C of E began in the mists of Albion… He was so sweet about it, though, I had to beg off.

. . . In the mists of Albion and Jesus spent his boyhood in Cornwall. I know. My beloved mentor, a bishop in one of the breakaway Anglican Churches believes this with his whole heart . . . and all the rest of the British Israel stuff . . . Sigh.

But like your friend: he is too sweet to fuss against.

 

[St_Violet]

Although I believe there are sincere Protestant apologist and average joe protestants who are sincere and loving, I do not think any protestant can deny that the Catholic Church is the Church that is the most bashed. it seems to me that bashing the Catholic Church has gone soo far to the point where people no longer recognize the good that the Catholic Church has been doing for centuries and I don’t see any reason why the Catholic Church would bash themselves unless we see that it’s mostly comming from Protestants, I think the Protestant Churches can learn alot of the Catholic Church’s lack of defense, for I believe the Catholic Church defending it’s self is not nessecary , perhaps it is possible that it will cause more harm then good. I think the protestants anti-catholocism not only disgraces themselves but also Christ’s message.

Sincerely,
St. Violet

 

[GKC]

. . . In the mists of Albion and Jesus spent his boyhood in Cornwall. I know. My beloved mentor, a bishop in one of the breakaway Anglican Churches believes this with his whole heart . . . and all the rest of the British Israel stuff . . . Sigh.

But like your friend: he is too sweet to fuss against.

Has the good man written a small pamphlet on the subject, by any chance?

GKC

 

[po18guy]

Although I believe there are sincere Protestant apologist and average joe protestants who are sincere and loving, I do not think any protestant can deny that the Catholic Church is the Church that is the most bashed. it seems to me that bashing the Catholic Church has gone soo far to the point where people no longer recognize the good that the Catholic Church has been doing for centuries and I don’t see any reason why the Catholic Church would bash themselves unless we see that it’s mostly comming from Protestants, I think the Protestant Churches can learn alot of the Catholic Church’s lack of defense, for I believe the Catholic Church defending it’s self is not nessecary , perhaps it is possible that it will cause more harm then good. I think the protestants anti-catholocism not only disgraces themselves but also Christ’s message.

Sincerely,
St. Violet

AMEN! AMEN! and AMEN!

 

[mercygate]

Has the good man written a small pamphlet on the subject, by any chance?

GKC

Yup. He’s actually got a giant ghastly tome he’s trying to peddle with publishers. The house he thought was interested in it turned Catholic and broke his heart (as did I). I think he wrote o pamphlet some time ago entitled, To the Isles Afar Off. Recently he handed me something about the Abrahamic covenant written by a guy in Nebraska or someplace like that. Perfect delirium about the 10 northern tribes migrating to Europe & Britan and America being the destiny of the world. (We’re seriously off topic, here GK). Maybe we should start a thread on British Israel?

 

[Contarini]

Apparently “evangelical Protestant piety” is so important that it trumps the truth.

Evangelical piety is the framework in which I came to believe in Christianity, and without which I am not sure I would have adequate reason to think Christianity true. You cannot bracket out piety and truth.

Edwin