Why do Protestant Apologists feel the need to lie about history and the Catholic Church?

[St_Violet]

AMEN! AMEN! and AMEN!

thanks, btw I think your sig is awesome and funny AND TRUE

 

[GKC]

Yup. He’s actually got a giant ghastly tome he’s trying to peddle with publishers. The house he thought was interested in it turned Catholic and broke his heart (as did I). I think he wrote o pamphlet some time ago entitled, To the Isles Afar Off. Recently he handed me something about the Abrahamic covenant written by a guy in Nebraska or someplace like that. Perfect delirium about the 10 northern tribes migrating to Europe & Britan and America being the destiny of the world. (We’re seriously off topic, here GK). Maybe we should start a thread on British Israel?

I’ve done that before, from the skeptical side.

I have your gentleman’s pamphlet.

GKC, skeptic.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Apparently “evangelical Protestant piety” is so important that it trumps the truth.

peace
mgrfin

I was trying to say that he gave his reasons for being Protestant, and that was a good as it was going to get, because the reasons he hasn’t joined the Swim Team (yet) are some disagreements he has with Catholic Theology. His disagreements of course are incorrect, like ordination of women, but is another thread. This leaves us with the conclusion that one can only be a Protestant if he rejects the fullness of truth.

For me, that answers the quesion, can any Protestant defend his faith without disagreeing (lying if you will) with the CC. NO, they can’t. Cont said it himself.

 

[qui_est_ce]

thanks, btw I think your sig is awesome and funny AND TRUE

who’s the dead guy?

 

[Zooey]

At the risk of starting a war, I fall back on a very subjective & at the same time, very Wesleyan reason for being Methodist: God wants me to be Methodist.
Now, I know a lot of you are going to jump on this, but I admitted that it was subjective.
I also admit that I am of two minds on the subject of “evangelical piety”…On the one hand, I grew up on it, and it is always going to be a part of me. On the other (in case no one has noticed), I find myself drawn to the rich devotional resources of Catholicism.
But I am neither Catholic, nor am I still part of the “Holiness” world. I am a United Methodist…
Because, however many riots may break out as a result of my saying it…God wants me to be Methodist. I fought it; God knows I fought it. If you had told me, 30 years ago, that I would be a member of any church with Methodist and/or Wesleyan in the name, I would have:blush: spit carpet tacks at you…
And then, God told me He wanted me to be Methodist. (No, I am not hearing voices; but, none the less, He made me to see, that this is where I am supposed to be). I have fought Him every inch of the way…Until I realized, that if I want to be able to get to sleep at night, and stay asleep, that I have to embrace the Wesleys…
So, here I am. Posting at CAF, thinking of it as my home on the 'net, trying to explain to all of you, that, well…that God wants me to be Methodist.

Life is ofttimes a surprising adventure…God bless all here.

 

[qui_est_ce]

At the risk of starting a war, I fall back on a very subjective & at the same time, very Wesleyan reason for being Methodist: God wants me to be Methodist.
On the other (in case no one has noticed), I find myself drawn to the rich devotional resources of Catholicism.
So, here I am. Posting at CAF, thinking of it as my home on the 'net, trying to explain to all of you, that, well…that God wants me to be Methodist.

Life is ofttimes a surprising adventure…God bless all here.

As a lover of cats, I will respond to you in kind. All is in God’s time not our time. God puts us in unlikely (to human minds) places for a reason. Keep listening to God…He already brought you (and me and the rest of us seekers and believers) here to this place CAF.

God help me, I am starting to sound like Mary Haugen, Gather us in. I can’t stand it!!! It’s getting late…I have to cantor on Sunday that awful song…at 7:30 AM Mass. I truly am a mass nerd.

God bless us all tonight.

 

[mgrfin]

I was trying to say that he gave his reasons for being Protestant, and that was a good as it was going to get, because the reasons he hasn’t joined the Swim Team (yet) are some disagreements he has with Catholic Theology. His disagreements of course are incorrect, like ordination of women, but is another thread. This leaves us with the conclusion that one can only be a Protestant if he rejects the fullness of truth.
QUOTE]

Faith truly is a gift. I know that is true because when someone says that so-and-so has not joined the true Church because he has an issue with the ordination of women…well, what more can I say. How can that keep one from the true Church?

peace
mgrfin

 

[St_Violet]

who’s the dead guy?

I think the dead german is Martin Luther, and the alive German is our current pope

 

[Protestant101]

No, there is a real difference between fundamentalists and other Protestants. That is what you are missing. You are understandably fixated on fundamentalists (because they target Catholics), and largely ignore the majority of Protestants who are not fundamentalists.

Edwin

Ah; it doesn’t matter if we get “slammed” a little. it may keep us on our toes better.

One should note in reading the quote I have taken from the above post carefully. The Catholic definition of a “Fundamentalist” is way different than the Protestant version.

 

[Contarini]

Ah; it doesn’t matter if we get “slammed” a little. it may keep us on our toes better.

One should note in reading the quote I have taken from the above post carefully. The Catholic definition of a “Fundamentalist” is way different than the Protestant version.

How? And, of course, there is no one definition on either side.

Edwin

 

[mgrfin]

No, there is a real difference between fundamentalists and other Protestants. That is what you are missing. You are understandably fixated on fundamentalists (because they target Catholics), and largely ignore the majority of Protestants who are not fundamentalists.
Edwin

You are generalizing. Catholics are not fixated on Fundamentalists for their anti-Catholicism. We don’t see them as being more Anti-Catholic than we do seeing Methodists, for example.

Of course there is a real difference between fundamentalists and other Protestant denominations. Radical Protestants have a different ‘theology’, different ‘liturgy’, different history, different mission, different soteriology. It is devotional, sentimental religion to the extreme. Such fundamentalists seek other Christians, Catholics and Protestants of every stripe included, as objects of their proselytizing efforts. They have the message of salvation which no one else has, according to them. We are not saved unless we are ‘born again’ and keep ‘converting’ to Jesus.
If you analyze their message, it is quite empty. A 90 minute sermon is meant to whip up the congregation, and as the message unfolds, there is less and less content.

They are promised happiness, wealth, good health, successful work-experience, heaven here on earth. “Go to the phones; call now, operators available and waiting”. If you keep giving God your money, eventually you will be rewarded, probably in the next year. Your ‘seed’, your ‘love gift/offering’ is all it takes to get the “blessing”, to get the “anointing”. It’s bribing God to bless you with material gifts. Kind of like grabbing the leprachaun, and squeezing him until he gives up his pot of gold. And they do rake in the gold.

The biggest fraud is ‘good health’. We all become sick at some time or other. Faith healing and Benny Hinn type miracles keep people running to these expositions, exploiting people at their weakest times. The fake miracles are not seen for what they are.

Fundamentalism is the fastest growing segment of Christianity, stealing its members from the rest. They are an embarassment to Protestantism, in particular, and Christianity in general.

Fundamentalists have no doctrinal message to speak of. I don’t see them having the need to attack Catholicism. They do a great job at entertaining, and preaching their message of success and blessing from God.

peace,
mgrfin

 

[po18guy]

who’s the dead guy?

Luther. Pray for his soul!

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[po18guy]

You are generalizing. Catholics are not fixated on Fundamentalists for their anti-Catholicism. We don’t see them as being more Anti-Catholic than we do seeing Methodists, for example.

Of course there is a real difference between fundamentalists and other Protestant denominations. Radical Protestants have a different ‘theology’, different ‘liturgy’, different history, different mission, different soteriology. It is devotional, sentimental religion to the extreme. Such fundamentalists seek other Christians, Catholics and Protestants of every stripe included, as objects of their proselytizing efforts. They have the message of salvation which no one else has, according to them. We are not saved unless we are ‘born again’ and keep ‘converting’ to Jesus.
If you analyze their message, it is quite empty. A 90 minute sermon is meant to whip up the congregation, and as the message unfolds, there is less and less content.

They are promised happiness, wealth, good health, successful work-experience, heaven here on earth. “Go to the phones; call now, operators available and waiting”. If you keep giving God your money, eventually you will be rewarded, probably in the next year. Your ‘seed’, your ‘love gift/offering’ is all it takes to get the “blessing”, to get the “anointing”. It’s bribing God to bless you with material gifts. Kind of like grabbing the leprachaun, and squeezing him until he gives up his pot of gold. And they do rake in the gold.

The biggest fraud is ‘good health’. We all become sick at some time or other. Faith healing and Benny Hinn type miracles keep people running to these expositions, exploiting people at their weakest times. The fake miracles are not seen for what they are.

Fundamentalism is the fastest growing segment of Christianity, stealing its members from the rest. They are an embarassment to Protestantism, in particular, and Christianity in general.

Fundamentalists have no doctrinal message to speak of. I don’t see them having the need to attack Catholicism. They do a great job at entertaining, and preaching their message of success and blessing from God.

peace,
mgrfin

But, each new member is encouraged to tithe his way to the Kingdom! (P.O. Box at the bottom of the screen!) John Stossel did a great 20/20 exposition on the most well-known Christian charlatans on TV and their lifestyles. “Ever Increasing Faith Ministries” sued ABC over the expose. I wonder which “public defender” they hired to take on the media, and who is actually paying for that legal firepower???

 

[Contarini]

You are generalizing. Catholics are not fixated on Fundamentalists for their anti-Catholicism. We don’t see them as being more Anti-Catholic than we do seeing Methodists, for example.

Well, if you don’t think fundamentalists are more anti-Catholic than Methodists are, then you need a very serious reality check. I am generalizing on the basis of the Catholics I know who actually have some clue about different Protestant groups and what they believe. If you are saying that you are not one of them, then I really don’t think you have any grievance against me for thinking you better informed than you are.

Of course there is a real difference between fundamentalists and other Protestant denominations.

Fundamentalists are not, I think, best described as a denomination.

It is devotional, sentimental religion to the extreme.

Actually no–that is one of the differences between fundamentalists and evangelicals. Fundamentalists have little patience for nuanced, sophisticated theology, true. But they have a very hard-headed devotion to every jot and tittle of their dogma.

Such fundamentalists seek other Christians, Catholics and Protestants of every stripe included, as objects of their proselytizing efforts. They have the message of salvation which no one else has, according to them. We are not saved unless we are ‘born again’ and keep ‘converting’ to Jesus.

In the case of the more orthodox ones–the more heretical ones only care about the initial experience and not the continual conversion.

They are promised happiness, wealth, good health, successful work-experience, heaven here on earth.

Fundamentalists strictly speaking do not generally go in for this, but are more likely to expect suffering and persecution (though they often fight back against perceived persecution, and while waiting for it have been known to enjoy good food and fast driving!). You are thinking of certain forms of Pentecostalism, which do indeed have strong affinities with fundamentalism. Given strict fundamentalists’ hostility to any revelation apart from Scripture, scholars of American religion generally distinguish fundamentalists from Pentecostals, but it’s a matter of definition. The more important point is that what you are describing is certainly not characteristic of fundamentalists as a whole. In my experience, fundamentalists generally think the “Word of Faith” teaching is one of the deadliest and most diabolical errors in the contemporary Church.

Fundamentalists have no doctrinal message to speak of. I don’t see them having the need to attack Catholicism.

Well, you are thinking of something quite different from what most people mean by “fundamentalism” then. Fundamentalists have a very sharp (though simplistic) doctrinal message, regarding the slightest deviation from prescribed dogma as diabolical. And they attack Catholicism persistently and viciously. They are frankly obsessed with it–fundamentalist preachers typically introduce references to Catholicism at every opportunity, as a cheap way to get the crowd on their side.

An anecdote: some years ago while staying with my parents in Tennessee, I visited an Independent Baptist church whose pastor had been a friend of my family’s for years, and to whose daughter I had taught piano. When we first knew him, this pastor was above the average and focused more on spiritual edification than on cheap slams. But on this particular day, he saw fit to introduce a gratuitous reference to the Pope being called “father” while dressing like a woman. That’s an example of the kind of thing fundamentalists throw out just as casual rhetorical flourishes. I told my parents (and believe that they passed this on to the pastor) that I will never visit that church again, by the way.

I think I probably have had more experience with fundamentalists than you have–you appear to be basing your opinion on TV programs which are actually produced by Pentecostals.

Edwin

 

[mgrfin]

Edwin

I guess your experience in East Tennessee is closer to reality than my experience in Southern California, where we have seven million Catholics (Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Orange), greater than the population of your whole state.

peace,
mgrfin

 

[Contarini]

I guess your experience in East Tennessee is closer to reality than my experience in Southern California, where we have seven million Catholics (Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Orange), greater than the population of your whole state.

East Tennessee is indeed a much better place to gain experience of fundamentalism than California. There are many more people in California than in Tennessee, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that there are more fundamentalists, and you certainly haven’t been hanging out with them judging from your posts.

Edwin

 

[mgrfin]

East Tennessee is indeed a much better place to gain experience of fundamentalism than California. There are many more people in California than in Tennessee, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that there are more fundamentalists, and you certainly haven’t been hanging out with them judging from your posts.

Edwin

We have 5 times more of whatever you have in Tenneess. This is the home of TBN, and the Chrystal Cathedral

We have more Catholics than anyone else. More Baptists, 40 pct of all Buddists, more Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Episcopalians, and Evangelicals. Maybe Utah has more Mormons, but we have our share.

I hang with anyone who can stand me.

peace,
mgrfin

 

[Protestant101]

LORD,
Is this is actually You, testing us? OK, let’s take the Cliffs Notes version of the life of Jesus, also known as the New Testament. If all you believe in is this book, you are denying the vast majority of what Christ did and taught.(John 21:25). Since Christ answered the Pharisee’s questions with questions, I will answer yours in like manner. According to your line of reasoning, the first 30+ years of Christians must be in hell, becaue they had no bible to teach them. They were instructed verbally, just as Jesus did. “No”, you say, they are not in hell? Well, then it would appear that salvation depends on more than just the bible, huh?

Where is your FAITH and TRUST in GRACE? It “appears” that you follow the teachings of a “mere man” (L*****) who lost his faith and trust, but persisted anyway in founding a movement that bears his own name, not that of God. I had “the Mary problem” when I came into the faith. God, being outside of time, and perfect in nature, bore with me and revealed the truth to me. He stands ready to do the same for you, if only you will stop persisting in your unbelief and believe.

There is no YouTube video that I can link you to which will “prove” the beliefs of millions. Some things you just have to take on faith. Not “sola fide”, but faith nevertheless. Keep asking questions and seeking, and God will reveal all to you.

The peace of Christ be with you.

Why follow a “live German” when you can follow Jesus?

 

[mgrfin]

Why follow a “live German” when you can follow Jesus?

Because Jesus put him in charge.

peace

 

[Contarini]

We have 5 times more of whatever you have in Tenneess. This is the home of TBN, and the Chrystal Cathedral

The Crystal Cathedral is not a fundamentalist institution in any sense. TBN we could argue about, as I said already. Your examples demonstrate my point–you mean something different by “fundamentalism” than scholars who study the subject (or those of us who have been unfortunate enough to grow up surrounded by real fundamentalism) do.

I assure you that the fundamentalists I grew up with hated the sort of preachers you find on TBN with a passion. They were almost as bad as the Catholic Church, and that’s saying something!

Edwin