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mumof5
Guest
Actually, Satan’s plan began way back in the Old Testament. See the dialogue between God and Satan in Job and reports of such in Psalms and numerous other places. Well before the time of Jesus.
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mumof5
Guest
I’'m not sure that’s quite fair as most Protestant churches will recognise each others. Some will not accept infant baptism as they believe in a believer’s baptism, but generally speaking, they do accept each others. They might not accept every one, such as the JW baptism, as the purpose of that is to affiliate to an organisation which is not what it’s all about!
The Catholic church itself does not accept every baptism as valid and sometimes people are rebaptised on entering the Catholic church, so it works both ways.
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Nicene
Guest
No one is ever rebaptized in the catholic church. If you didn’t recieve a trinitarian baptism in the first place you were never baptized at all. Any trinitarian baptism is acceptable to the church because Christ is the one washing through Spirit and Water. You personally could even do it in an emergency.
You can’t rebaptize someone who has never been baptized in the first place.
Then again you are free to believe JW’s and Mormons are christian if you wish.
As far as “generally” among protestants, it’s still the same as what was stated earlier, they don’t all accept each others baptism, or the word generally couldn’t be applied at all. It also imples that many “generally” do not accept others baptisms.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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imroc
Guest
“We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins…”
Your above comment of the church’s belief is mirepresentative and does not go both ways. The church does not “rebaptise” anybody and only recognizes those baptisms that follow the sacrament layed out by Christ himself. If the baptism is not in the “name of The Father and of The Son and of The holy Spirit…” Than it is not a true baptism that follows Christ’s intentions and purpose. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, baptisms in the name of the god known as the “Father” but not in the name of the other gods known as “the son” and such are not acceptable because they are not baptised into God, also known to the Christian faiths as the Trinity. In other words, if it isn’t Christian, than it isn’t going to work
It’s little facts like this that get overlooked by people who do not understand the church’s teachings based on the Bible that make the church look stupid and hypocritical. But by stating the facts instead of one’s personal misrepresentations as solid thread material, we can all find out what the church truly teaches. And if the fact isn’t truly known, a simple, “I believe” or “maybe the church…” will help bring others into helping out by bringing forth honest and true teachings.
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mumof5
Guest
Yes, you’re right, re-baptise is the wrong word. What I did mean to say is that the Catholic church does not recognise as valid what some others would hold to be a valid baptism. so someone who previously considered themselves baptised might decide to enter the Catholic church and then find that they are considered unbaptised in spite of their previous belief to the contrary.
The only baptisms I am aware that some Protestant denominations don’t accept as valid would be infant baptisms (or those carried out in sects such as the JWs, who do not use the Trinitarian formula, or the Mormons). Between protestant religions that use adult immersion, I don’t know of any that do not accept the others.
The only baptisms I am aware that some Protestant denominations don’t accept as valid would be infant baptisms (or those carried out in sects such as the JWs, who do not use the Trinitarian formula, or the Mormons). Between protestant religions that use adult immersion, I don’t know of any that do not accept the others.
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imroc
Guest
Eze 36:24-27
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
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mumof5
Guest
That is refering to quite a different ritual than baptism.
By the way, I love that church sign. Good on that church!
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imroc
Guest
What ritual is that referring to? Oh! And please don’t take me wrong, I think there is a certain beauty to full immersion baptisms.
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Tonks40
Guest
Explain…I’d like to see your pov.
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mumof5
Guest
Just curious about one thing…if baptism is to forgive sins, why did Jesus get baptised? Purely example?
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imroc
Guest
I’ll answer your question if you can answer mine first
Keep in mind, from what I have gathered from research, this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled or is a mystery, according to some Jewish writings. So if this is a ritual of some sort, what ritual is it? And if it isn’t a Jewish ritual, than who is practicing it? And if it is a Christian ritual, what church practices this fulfillment of prophecy?
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mumof5
Guest
The sprinkling with “clean water” was merely a symbol, borrowed from the cleansing rituals of the law of Moses ( Ex. 30:17-21; Lev. 14:52; Num. 19:7-19), that pointed to the forgiveness that Israel could enjoy from the “filthiness” of their idol worship.I’ll answer your question if you can answer mine first
Keep in mind, from what I have gathered from research, this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled or is a mystery, according to some Jewish writings. So if this is a ritual of some sort, what ritual is it? And if it isn’t a Jewish ritual, than who is practicing it? And if it is a Christian ritual, what church practices this fulfillment of prophecy?
Do you think the heart bit is literal?
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Mum,
We recently had a good thread on infant baptism here, and I proved that this was a practice of the early Church. It is a man-made tradition that infants are not to be baptized, and is not prohibited in Scripture. You should head over there and check it out. My posts are last, but I am going to quote the Church Fathers and sources that I used here as well. “Believer’s baptism” is in no way historical Christianity:
Didache 7:
Saint Irenaeus:
We accept as valid all Trinitarian baptisms that are performed in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. We reject Mormon and JW baptisms because they are not Trinitarian. We would probably also reject Unitarian (do they even baptize???) and “Oneness Pentecostals” and other neo-gnostic sects if they do indeed baptize. The Catholic Church has what we call a “conditional” baptism which can be performed if records cannot be obtained from the previous church about a person’s baptism and in what form it occured. this is not a re-baptism because as far as we are concerned the baptism never happened as it wasn’t performed in the name of the Triune Godhead we believe in. If a conditional baptism is performed, and it turns out the “original” baptism happened accurately, then the conditional baptism had no effect on the catechumen.
God bless!
I
imroc
Guest
christiancourier.com/questions/ezekielSprinklingQuestion.htm
That same article goes on to quote some catholics in order to misrepresent the church. It is another clever tactic to use some quotes in order to dodge what the church teaches in order to “prove” the “anti-catholic” stance. I’m not convinced by your snippet, but I do feel that there’s a great connection of rituals in Ex, Lev and Numbers to the prophecy in Ezek.
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mumof5
Guest
Semper Fi:
In every church I’ve ever been to, infants are baptised by pouring or sprinkling. Just to refer to a couple of Catholic sources:
Bertrand Conway wrote:
“Catholics admit that immersion brings out more fully the meaning of the Sacrament (Rom. vi, 3, 4; Col. ii.12; Tit. iii. 5; Eph. v. 27 [sic – 26], and that for twelve centuries it was the common practice” (The Question Box, San Francisco: Catholic Truth Society, 1929, p. 240).
Another Catholic scholar, J.J. Ignatius Dollinger, wrote that in the early church baptism was “by immersion of the whole person, which is the only meaning of the New Testament word. A mere pouring or sprinkling was never thought of” (The First Age of Christianity and of the Church (London, 1887, Vol. II, p. 183).
(I so wish discussions of these sorts were possible in person!)
I would rather refer to the Bible (because in my mind any other source is questionable unless backed up by scripture) and while ti does say that households were baptised, it doesn’t explicitly state that infants were or were not baptised.
In every church I’ve ever been to, infants are baptised by pouring or sprinkling. Just to refer to a couple of Catholic sources:
Bertrand Conway wrote:
“Catholics admit that immersion brings out more fully the meaning of the Sacrament (Rom. vi, 3, 4; Col. ii.12; Tit. iii. 5; Eph. v. 27 [sic – 26], and that for twelve centuries it was the common practice” (The Question Box, San Francisco: Catholic Truth Society, 1929, p. 240).
Another Catholic scholar, J.J. Ignatius Dollinger, wrote that in the early church baptism was “by immersion of the whole person, which is the only meaning of the New Testament word. A mere pouring or sprinkling was never thought of” (The First Age of Christianity and of the Church (London, 1887, Vol. II, p. 183).
(I so wish discussions of these sorts were possible in person!)
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imroc
Guest
The other problem I have with the article that you quoted is that in Ezek, it says, “I will…”
But yet they transgress in the article by saying that it refers to rituals already established? If this is so, shouldn’t the prophecy state, “I have…”?
But yet they transgress in the article by saying that it refers to rituals already established? If this is so, shouldn’t the prophecy state, “I have…”?
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mumof5
Guest
Not necessarily. I would say that even talking about rituals already established that will be carried out in future would justify the use of ‘I will’.
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imroc
Guest
Well, let’s do that. I have already quoted the Bible and you answered. Check. I asked you to show me which ritual you refer to and you answered. Your answer was quoted from an article from a group that “investigates apologetic answers”. So of course, you will find it to be anti-catholic moreso than being just “protestant”. So I guess we fall back into our discussion and since you are probably beginning to believe in “sola scriptura”, let’s keep in biblical.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Mum,
These texts were compiled before the canon of Scripture was put together by Catholic bishops. The Christian faith was passed on by word of mouth, not by the Bible alone. Infant baptism is not prohibited in Scripture and we have proof it was performed by the earliest Christians who studied under the apostles! Baptist doctrine simply is not present anywhere in the early Church. The Catholic Church (SHOCK!) does baptize by immersion in rivers… our Eastern Rites do. The Maronite rite still does (and the only rite in the Church which says the words of consecration in Jesus’ native Aramaic), which is the only rite of the Eastern Church which has no Orthodox counterpart as they have never apostasized from the Catholic faith. However, to go and deny that a poured baptism is invalid, is wrong. The early Christians practiced it. Also, baptizing in tubs as modern Baptists do is not scriptural… as the Christians were baptized in RIVERS. I wonder if any of the apostles had they had not access to living water (i.e. rivers) would hesitate to baptize by thrice pouring?
God bless!
M
mumof5
Guest
What would you suggest we test the writings of those who have come in the centuries after Christ against? Or do we believe anyone claiming to speak the will of God?
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