Why do protestants believe in Bible only?

[jmcrae]

No idea. Christ tells us to Baptize. St Paul tells us that Baptism now saves you. Christ institutes the Eucharist, provides for the gift of confession/absolution. Perhaps 33 can enlighten us, if that is whathe/she believes.

Perhaps it would be a surprise to her that some Protestants think the Sacraments are “Biblical” and “not works.”

Who is speaking of mere belief? But more importantly, my question was, if you indeed have saving faith, why would skipping mass to rob a bank be a choice you might consider? If you have saving faith, would you not be desirous of doing His will, following His commands, and seeking absolution when you fail to do so?

We still have this thing called “concupiscence” which causes us to want to do things that we know are wrong to do - and while I have never been tempted to rob a bank, is there anyone alive who has not overheard gossip in the Narthex, or even participated in discussing other people’s problems without them present? We all still commit sin, even though we have faith in Jesus. Having faith in Jesus doesn’t automatically cure us from doing things we know are wrong.

Will robbing a bank cause you to lose your salvation? It depends. If one is intent on persevering in sin, maintaining saving faith seems unlikely.

What if you decide that God has exempted you from the prohibition against robbing banks, due to your unique situation in life, which clearly requires you to rob banks - even though it can’t be allowed for other people?

 

[Maranatha33]

Hello to all…

I have no agenda, no determination to upset, anger, or hassle anyone in their beliefs. I was raised Roman Catholic and my father taught at a RC University. The foundation I got from my RC upbringing introduced me to Jesus. For that, I am eternally grateful. I left the RCC for one reason, there are critical places where RC dogma conflicts with Scripture. In my opinion, they can not be reconciled. Sola Fida is one. There is no question in my mind that faith alone is what will save us, through the propitiation of Christ. Again, Isaiah (64:6) tells us plainly that our works are like “filthy rags” (The actual translation is even more graphic). Eph. 2:8,9 says we are saved by faith, not by works. It is very plain, at least to me.

Works are a manifestation of saving faith, not a means to it. James makes this statement in saying faith without works is dead. As you all are aware, not everybody who claims to be a Christian, really is a Christian. (Mormonism, e.g…) The means by determining a true Christian is by their fruit. Their fruit are their works. It comes into play after being saved by faith, and being “born again”. (John 3:3,7, etal.)

No idea. Christ tells us to Baptize. St Paul tells us that Baptism now saves you. Christ institutes the Eucharist, provides for the gift of confession/absolution. Perhaps 33 can enlighten us, if that is what he/she believes.

Paul does indeed emphasize the importance of Baptism. However, it cannot be infant Baptism. The reason is that confession, repentance, and requesting propitiation are required at the time of the Baptism. An infant cannot do this.

Acts 19:4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance.

**Matt. 3:6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Matt. 3:11, 12 I baptize you with water for** repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

**Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of **the Holy Spirit.

---

I have found that a common issue against the doctrine of faith alone salvation is the idea that man can be immoral in deeds, even with faith and still be saved. This is not generally the case. The Holy Spirit is our guidance and teacher, and will have a say in everything in the believer’s life. If we stray, we will be convicted by the Spirit to repent, and get our focus back on Jesus.

Romans 6:1-4 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Faith alone leads us to a repentant Baptism. Dying to self is what this is defined as. (Signified by full emersion.) Becoming alive in Christ, is surrendering to His Lordship. The “seal” of this born again experience is receiving the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit actively guides Christians, and this is where we can identify true salvation by works. The good works we do are not of ourselves, but the Holy Spirit. We exercise faith, but God gives us the good works to show our salvation. Since the Holy Spirit is actually doing the good works, we should not take credit and claim them to be ours. Our Christian life is based on believing and trusting in Christ, as all RCs know. Sola Fida is simply a declaration that our part in salvation is trusting in the Lord to save us, and the good works are manifest by God, and do nothing for our attaining salvation, just verify that it is real.

Sola Scriptura is another hotly debated topic. I don’t think it should be, but it is. The reason I give is this. First, the Scriptures came before the RC (or any other Christian denomination’s) dogma. Second, the Scriptures are the only self proclaimed “God Breathed” teachings. (2Tim3:16) In my opinion there are many points in the Magisterium that are absolutely Biblical. If a dogma of the RCC does not conflict with Scripture, it is fine. For example, ( just as an example) we used to have to eat fish on Fridays. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you can’t eat fish on Fridays. So the rules in the RCC are fine regarding this issue. Sola Scriptura only comes into play when another teaching contradicts Scripture. Then the Scripture takes precedent. This isn’t as well defined as I would like, however, the point is simply that the Bible is the sole authority when an issue becomes a conflict. The Bible is complete for the Christian’s guidance in this life. But if a specific dogma comes to life that is not addressed directly in Scripture, there is no problem here.

 

[JonNC]

=jmcrae;10929370]Perhaps it would be a surprise to her that some Protestants think the Sacraments are “Biblical” and “not works.”

God makes His grace available to us in different ways. Centrally through His sacraments - the means of grace.

We still have this thing called “concupiscence” which causes us to want to do things that we know are wrong to do - and while I have never been tempted to rob a bank, is there anyone alive who has not overheard gossip in the Narthex, or even participated in discussing other people’s problems without them present? We all still commit sin, even though we have faith in Jesus. Having faith in Jesus doesn’t automatically cure us from doing things we know are wrong.

Certainly. Paul speaks to this when he complains about the fact that the wrong he would not do, that he does, etc. There is a difference between that and calculating what one can and can not “get away” with.

What if you decide that God has exempted you from the prohibition against robbing banks, due to your unique situation in life, which clearly requires you to rob banks - even though it can’t be allowed for other people? ]

Based on what scriptural passage or Church teaching?

Jon

 

[jmcrae]

Based on what scriptural passage or Church teaching?

Jon

Based on the idea that “work is evil”.

 

[Adamski]

This video is a great and Funny video on bible alone

Check out this video on YouTube:

youtube.com/watch?v=fWyaFPGeusg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[JonNC]

Based on the idea that “work is evil”.

Not a new false teaching. The Lutheran confessions condemned this. But saying works are evil is not the same as permission to do evil works.

Jon

 

[Maranatha33]

Hey 103… I hope this is a charitable and respective reply…

Nowhere in your rebuttal did the words FAITH ALONE appear in your Bible quotes.

There are only 2 options here. 1. Are we saved by faith? 2. Are we saved by works, or a combination of faith and works?

The Scripture says “Saved by faith… Not by works.” I don’t know how much clearer it can be. What else do you need to read to understand this is what the Bible teaches?

“Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.” Jesus said that. How does that jibe with Sola Fide?

The Bible clearly teaches that there will be 2 different judgments. 1. The White Throne judgement for unbelievers, and the judgement without condemnation for the believers. Each will get perfect justice, according to God. This has no effect on Sola Fida.

This quote is a little closer to Catholic teaching than you might think, but according to you, all you have to do is DEMONSTRATE your faith? That’s not FAITH ALONE. Faith alone means; “I believe, and I don’t have to lift a finger”, right?

No. It means I have to have the Holy Spirit within, as He tells us in John 3. The same indwelling of the Holy Spirit to the apostles at Pentecost, happens to the believer at the new birth. Remember how the apostles changed when the Holy Spirit arrived? To a lesser degree, all people that receive the Holy Spirit will change. You can tell by their deeds. Since all the good we do is a gift of God through His Holy Spirit, we can not rightfully claim some sort of credit for them. We can only claim that we have the faith of propitiation in Jesus’ blood, and even that is a gift from God. We can still do bad, but the Spirit will convict us quickly, if He indeed is within.

In all seriousness, I think you’re a little off on what you THINK Catholicism is. Someone has sold you a bill of goods that you’ve bought into, and you’ve got us wrong.

Actually I am quite confident that I know Catholicism. I was raised Roman Catholic. Though I went to public schools, I attended CCD every year, until I left the faith. I vigorously defended the Catholic faith against Protestants, until a Biblical issue arose. I asked my local priest if this issue could be true, and he denied it, but never explained why. My father took me along when he did his weekly teaching for the Jesuit Brothers, at their place. The priest who ran this institution was a close family friend, who even said mass in our house. When I went to the university, dad took me to mass, as he went 3 to 4 times per week. I was with him when he was invited to the U.S.C.C… (United States Catholic Conference) 250 of the most powerful RC members in North America. He was elected treasurer, though he didn’t run for the office. I have taken college level classes in RC, and I have been around and a student of RC more than most, I would say, until I had to leave.

 

[jmcrae]

There are only 2 options here. 1. Are we saved by faith? 2. Are we saved by works, or a combination of faith and works?

We are saved by Christ, and we make it easier for Him to save us by being in His Church, and by being obedient to His commandments.

The Bible clearly teaches that there will be 2 different judgments. 1. The White Throne judgement for unbelievers, and the judgement without condemnation for the believers. Each will get perfect justice, according to God.

The Bible does not “clearly teach” any such thing, as evidenced by the fact that the majority of Bible Christians have never even heard of this idea, and the fact that we see nothing written about it before the early 1900s.

There will be one Judgement Day; the one described in Matthew 25.

 

[7_Sorrows]

We are saved through Jesus Christ. We are saved by God’s grace and not by works, so that none of us can boast. Do you actually disagree with this?

what are the “works” that Catholics do that bother you?

 

[Adamski]

How can you have bible alone if there is no inspired table
of contents telling you what books are scripture

How do we know the book of mark is scripture unless we have a church to tell us so

 

[JonNC]

How can you have bible alone if there is no inspired table
of contents telling you what books are scripture

How do we know the book of mark is scripture unless we have a church to tell us so

A table of contents is irrelevant , but you are right that it is the Church that hps us know what is or is not the canon. Different communions have different canons, and use disputed books in different ways.

Jon

 

[7_Sorrows]

okay. I just spent the last 45 minutes reading ALL of the posts and there are some very good defenders of the Catholic faith here and I thank you for your participation and there are those defending the protestant side and I also value their participation.

I would like to thank the person who put up the link to Scripture Catholic and I plan to investigate that site more fully.

when Jesus was on earth, he was teaching as a Jewish man as Christianity had not been formed yet. he was teaching from his knowledge of the Torah - the first 5 books and also taught from his knowledge of the prophets. he said he was not coming to abolish the Law, but to fulfill the Law. he travelled with his apostles. they saw the miracles he performed. we come to the Last Supper and the last night Jesus spent with his apostles.
then we have the crucifixion and then the Resurrection. we have the work Jesus did with the apostles the 40 days before he ascended. we have Pentecost. we have an entire book of Acts which relates the acts of the apostles. then we have a persecutor of Christians named Saul who later becomes Paul and helps to spread the gospel along with the apostles. there was not a Bible during this time when they were organizing the Church that Jesus wanted. to think of how the Holy Spirit worked within these men and what they were able to accomplish. the first 1,000 years there was One Church. I know that I need to read a book of Church history, but how can protestants deny what existed for 1500 years or more before Martin Luther and King Henry VIII (not the VII as one poster put)?

when I watch the protestant pastors on television with their Bibles before them - that is good that they can read their Bibles and they all have their own interpretations, but they are missing the liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Mass. they are missing tradition. I love my Catholic Bibles. I have recently been reading Sirach and Tobit and Judith and plan on reading the other books that the Protestants removed from their Bibles.
but there is more than Bible only in my opinion. I am not saying that Protestants are not good Christians because I know they do many good “works”! they help the poor and the hungry and the homeless. they help to spread the word of the Gospels.

I like what one poster said about protestants choosing the authority of martin luther and other protestant reformers over the authority of the Church.

the protestant denominations have no authority and that is why there are so many and they all have different beliefs - on social topics, on female pastors, bishops and priests, etc.

if it is Bible only, why would you need a church?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hello to all…

I have no agenda, no determination to upset, anger, or hassle anyone in their beliefs. I was raised Roman Catholic and my father taught at a RC University. The foundation I got from my RC upbringing introduced me to Jesus. For that, I am eternally grateful. I left the RCC for one reason, there are critical places where RC dogma conflicts with Scripture. In my opinion, they can not be reconciled.

And of course you lone interpretation of Scriptures is better than that of the Catholic Church…

 

[Isaiah45_9]

We are saved by Grace. Grace precedes everything, there is no faith, no works. There is nothing in the economy of Salvation without Grace.

Faith alone doesn’t save any more than works alone.

Faith without works is Dead.

 

[KingJohn]

I’l have go to God on this one.

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Isaiah 2:22 Turn away from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for of what account is he?

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding.

 

[rfournier103]

There are only 2 options here. 1. Are we saved by faith? 2. Are we saved by works, or a combination of faith and works? Eph 2:8,9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

(I merged two of your quotes)

God’s Grace saves us. If we spend our whole lives doing good (works), but have NO faith, I wholeheartedly agree that you will not be saved. God tells us time and again that He won’t bestow His Grace on those who have no faith.

The Scripture says “Saved by faith… Not by works.” I don’t know how much clearer it can be. What else do you need to read to understand this is what the Bible teaches?

The Bible clearly teaches that there will be 2 different judgments. 1. The White Throne judgement for unbelievers, and the judgement without condemnation for the believers. Each will get perfect justice, according to God. This has no effect on Sola Fida.

Scripture says, “saved by GRACE through faith”, doesn’t it? To me, faith is a very simple thing. FAITH is a state of mind. You have FAITH that the Indians will finally win the World Series this year. You have FAITH in God. In the simplest sense of the word, does FAITH = BELIEF? Or… is it something else?

No. It means I have to have the Holy Spirit within, as He tells us in John 3. The same indwelling of the Holy Spirit to the apostles at Pentecost, happens to the believer at the new birth. Remember how the apostles changed when the Holy Spirit arrived? To a lesser degree, all people that receive the Holy Spirit will change. You can tell by their deeds. Since all the good we do is a gift of God through His Holy Spirit, we can not rightfully claim some sort of credit for them. We can only claim that we have the faith of propitiation in Jesus’ blood, and even that is a gift from God. We can still do bad, but the Spirit will convict us quickly, if He indeed is within.

True. We are not saved by our own merits, but sin WILL condemn us, no? So maybe we ought to DO GOOD whilest we are here?

Actually I am quite confident that I know Catholicism. I was raised Roman Catholic. Though I went to public schools, I attended CCD every year, until I left the faith. I vigorously defended the Catholic faith against Protestants, until a Biblical issue arose. I asked my local priest if this issue could be true, and he denied it, but never explained why. My father took me along when he did his weekly teaching for the Jesuit Brothers, at their place. The priest who ran this institution was a close family friend, who even said mass in our house. When I went to the university, dad took me to mass, as he went 3 to 4 times per week. I was with him when he was invited to the U.S.C.C… (United States Catholic Conference) 250 of the most powerful RC members in North America. He was elected treasurer, though he didn’t run for the office. I have taken college level classes in RC, and I have been around and a student of RC more than most, I would say, until I had to leave.

I’m sorry none of the many Catholic theologans you knew could answer or explain your problem. I also went to CCD, and freely admit almost all of my knowledge of Catholicism came as an adult, and have had many things explained to me that I never understood, or even questioned.

Two LAST questions for you… You never mentioned what exactly the “Roman Rule Book” is. You remember, from post 228? Never heard of it. Can you tell me what that might be? And what church do you belong to now that is more in line with your feelings and thoughts? Just curious…

 

[joe371]

A table of contents is irrelevant , but you are right that it is the Church that hps us know what is or is not the canon. Different communions have different canons, and use disputed books in different ways.

Jon

Hey Jon. That’s true Jon. Surely Jesus ensured that His church, via the guidance of the HS, preserved the correct books. I suppose it is up to each individual to find His church, or what he/she believes is Jesus’ one church.

 

[rfournier103]

So… I can murder, rape, pillage, steal, blaspheme, destroy the property of others, live a scandallous life, never go to Mass/service, be un-repentant, and STILL go to heaven as long as BELIEVE in Jesus? After all… He DID die for our sins.

(I am sorry, Lord. I only said this to make a point)

How in the world does FAITH ALONE make ANY sense??? We don’t have to do ANYTHING but BELIEVE?

Do the Sola Fide believers also believe that we do not need the Bible or Baptism? We just need faith, right?

It never ceases to amaze me that so many otherwise brilliant people believe this.

If one believes in Jesus, one would not do that. Or, one would not presume salvation. I suppose such a person who had knowledge of Jesus and committed those acts might have internal guilt, but I doubt they thought to themselves, “Oh boy, I’m going to heaven!”

I think a better analogy is having faith, but not helping a needy neighbor or something – omission, not commission.

Faith is necessary, and perhaps if one repents at the end and renounces sin with true contrition, sufficient. **Works are not sufficient for salvation, but necessary to bear the fruits of faith. **

Bolded is mine.

**I agree that any true believer/serious follower of Jesus would never act that way. I also agree that works without faith would never get you to heaven. And thirdly, if works are necessary to bear the fruits of faith, then it is not faith ALONE, is it? Maybe our non-Catholic friends could try calling it something else? Because faith ‘alone’ seems to me a mis-nomer. **

I think it’s like asking which side constitutes the coin: heads or tails?

I don’t think you can have faith without works, perhaps not the monumental works of the saints, but works nonetheless. Volunteering somewhere. Donating to the poor.

It’s just not possible for someone who is a true follower of Jesus to not do any work.

I borrowed this from another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=775139 (Faith Alone. Really?) It’s still an open thread. Anyone game for reviving it?

Bolded is mine.

I just think that the way “Grace through Faith” as it is defined here is not “Faith Alone”. What is the definition of “Faith”? Belief? Something else? Maybe my definition of faith is too narrow… **I DO know that Jesus many times in the Bible commands us to DO all kinds of things. **

Maybe by Catholics DOING good deeds, Protestants think we are trying to work our way into Heaven? When we love our neighbors, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to the homeless, and help little old ladies across the street; we’re doing what Jesus commanded us to do, not trying to somehow cheat our way into heaven.

I think James chapter 2 is pretty clear in that faith in and of itself isn’t enough. I also think that James chapter 2 is pretty clear that works without faith is not enough. We MUST have God’s Grace. Period.

Last I checked, the book of James is in the Bible. So, it’s Biblical. We may agree to disagree, but it’s in the Bible and I am MORE than willing to let God decide this argument.

 

[JonNC]

=Maranatha33;10929891]

Paul does indeed emphasize the importance of Baptism. However, it cannot be infant Baptism. The reason is that confession, repentance, and requesting propitiation are required at the time of the Baptism. An infant cannot do this.

Acts 19:4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance.

Matt. 3:6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Matt. 3:11, 12 I baptize you with water for** repentance. **But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of **the Holy Spirit.
**

Without turning this into a Baptism thread, there was in scripture enough evidence that infants are to be baptized - whole households, etc. - that with little exception, the early Church fathers, and the early Church, east and west, taught Baptism of infants, just as infants were circumcised. The reformers saw no reason in scripture to question this.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hey Jon. That’s true Jon. Surely Jesus ensured that His church, via the guidance of the HS, preserved the correct books. I suppose it is up to each individual to find His church, or what he/she believes is Jesus’ one church.

Hi Joe,
The correct books is an interesting concept. Correct for what purpose. The CC, from why I gather, does not consider the additional books in Orthodox canons to be Church dividing. Why is that? A guess would be that some books have liturgical usage. I actually agree with this, and from a Lutheran perspective, taking into account the level of dispute, or acceptance of particular books seems prudent. So, Luther’s inclusion of the Prayer of Manasseh in his translation is a good thing.

Jon