Why do protestants believe in Bible only?

[JonNC]

=rfournier103;10931675]

I just think that the way “Grace through Faith” as it is defined here is not “Faith Alone”. What is the definition of “Faith”? Belief? Something else? Maybe my definition of faith is too narrow… **I DO know that Jesus many times in the Bible commands us to DO all kinds of things. **

You make a good point here, and that is the short hand we often use. Sola fide means nothing in and of itself, without the background understanding of the fact that it is by grace alone that salvation is possible.

Maybe by Catholics DOING good deeds, Protestants think we are trying to work our way into Heaven? When we love our neighbors, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to the homeless, and help little old ladies across the street; we’re doing what Jesus commanded us to do, not trying to somehow cheat our way into heaven.

Another great point. We often misunderstand each other. Non-Catholics need to recognize that Catholics do not believe in salvation by works. As I understand it, the good works Catholics do are done only in the framework of grace, possible only because of grace.
Catholics, on the other hand, need to recognize that “faith alone” is not carte Blanche to act any way one wants, does not exclude the necessity of the regenerate to do good works.

I think James chapter 2 is pretty clear in that faith in and of itself isn’t enough. I also think that James chapter 2 is pretty clear that works without faith is not enough. We MUST have God’s Grace. Period.

Can’t disagree. A saving faith is a faith that works through love. A faith that lacks charity is a dead faith, not a saving faith.

Jon

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’l have go to God on this one.

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

Isaiah 2:22 Turn away from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for of what account is he?

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding.

Amen! You just posted some of the best arguments against Bible only.

1. We put our trust in Christ and His Church.
2. We turn away from heresies from man.
3. We trust the LORD with all of our hearts and do not make our own understanding but rely on the understanding of His Church.

Amen, Amen!!!

Thanks.

 

[KingJohn]

Amen! You just posted some of the best arguments against Bible only.

1. We put our trust in Christ and His Church.
2. We turn away from heresies from man.
3. We trust the LORD with all of our hearts and do not make our own understanding but rely on the understanding of His Church.

Amen, Amen!!!

Thanks.

I wasn’t going for that, mate.

The Church is an earthly institution with the laws of Man. We don’t need to rely on humans for understanding, we can rely on his word.

 

[JonNC]

I wasn’t going for that, mate.

The Church is an earthly institution with the laws of Man. We don’t need to rely on humans for understanding, we can rely on his word.

The Church is far more than an earthly institution. The Church is the congregation of saints (believers) where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. The Church also is the Church Triumphant, the saints who have gone on before us.

But I am curious about relying on His word without the Church here on earth. If you rely on your own understand of His word, are you not relying on a human for understanding? If you are willing to rely on your own, why not rely on, or at least consider, those who might have been better studied, or those closest to the apostles themselves?

For example, Christ speaks these words at the Last Supper: “Take and eat. This IS my body.” Now, all of the early Church and virtually all of the Fathers of the Church, east and west, understand this in the clear speaking of the words. As a result, the Lutheran reformers hear the words of our Lord, then listen to the unanimous testimony of the Early Church, and conclude rightly, that Christ means what He says- it (the bread) is His body.

The great Lutheran reformer, Martin Chemnitz, discourages us to not rely on our own interpretations, even on the obvious passages. I’m with him.

Jon

 

[pablope]

I wasn’t going for that, mate.

The Church is an earthly institution with the laws of Man. We don’t need to rely on humans for understanding, we can rely on his word.

Your denomination…would you call it a church?

Does it have laws and guidelines? Would you also call it an earthly institution?

But how do you rely on His Word? How would you go about understanding and learning His Word and words?

How was the gospel spread after the Ascension?

How was Christianity brought to the Americas? to Asia? to other parts of the world?

Would you not rely on a human to explain it to you? Or would you rely on yourself?

Every Sunda, in your services…do you listen to what your pastor says or not?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I wasn’t going for that, mate.

The Church is an earthly institution with the laws of Man. We don’t need to rely on humans for understanding, we can rely on his word.

You have the wrong concept of what the Church is.

*Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.*

You’d have no Bible without the Church.

Man used the rules of grammar to write the inspired words of the Holy Spirit, man used earthly paper to place them upon, and it was men that were chosen by our Lord to establish His Church.

 

[KingJohn]

Your denomination…would you call it a church?

Does it have laws and guidelines? Would you also call it an earthly institution?

But how do you rely on His Word? How would you go about understanding and learning His Word and words?

How was the gospel spread after the Ascension?

How was Christianity brought to the Americas? to Asia? to other parts of the world?

Would you not rely on a human to explain it to you? Or would you rely on yourself?

Every Sunda, in your services…do you listen to what your pastor says or not?

Most churches in the aera I live are judgemental and not of God. Why would I want to attend them…?

God has given everyone the ability to spiritually discern scriptures. Nowhere in the Catholic or King James Bible does it say we lean on the Church for understanding.

Follow your own standards, please.

 

[stewstew03]

…
God has given everyone the ability to spiritually discern scriptures. Nowhere in the Catholic or King James Bible does it say we lean on the Church for understanding.

…

1 Timothy 3:15?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Acts 8:26-40
Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch

26 But an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south[a] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert road. 27 And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Canda′ce the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the scripture which he was reading was this:

“As a sheep led to the slaughter
or a lamb before its shearer is dumb,
so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken up from the earth.”
34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus. 36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?”** 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azo′tus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesare′a.**

 

[rfournier103]

I think I may have said this before, but the Reformation resulted in a rejection of the Church’s authority (certainly in England), and when you discard authority, you need to replace it.

I contend that the Bible has ALWAYS been held as authoritative by the Church as the inerrant Word of God, but if you strip away the Church’s God-given authority to interpet the Word, you just have the Bible.

Pretty simple, really. The Bible is one of the FEW constants across the board for all Christians (although translations may vary…)

 

[pablope]

Most churches in the aera I live are judgemental and not of God. Why would I want to attend them…?

God has given everyone the ability to spiritually discern scriptures. Nowhere in the Catholic or King James Bible does it say we lean on the Church for understanding.

Follow your own standards, please.

Which does the Bible say is the pillar and ground of truth? Is it the Bible? The individual?

And when you say area churches in your area are judgemental and not of God…what is your basis? By what standard do you judge them?

And when you make that judgement…are you free from error when you make such judgement?

Are you the authority to judge what is of God and what is not?

Nowhere in the Catholic or King James Bible does it say we lean on the Church for understanding.

1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

The passage above…to know the truth…what does it say? Does it say to go to the Bible and read the Bible to know the truth?

Follow your own standards, please

Who standards? Do we set the standards ourselves?

Or did Jesus set the standard and we are to follow that Church?

Follow your own standards, please

 

[KingJohn]

Which does the Bible say is the pillar and ground of truth? Is it the Bible? The individual?

You have a different speculation on who it is, as do I. Nowhere does it say man is the pillar and ground of truth, that’d be blasphemous. Know why?

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

Those are Christ’s words, not mine^.

And when you say area churches in your area are judgemental and not of God…what is your basis? By what standard do you judge them?

Hypocrites, gossiping, rude…

Matthew 7:16

You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

And when you make that judgement…are you free from error when you make such judgement?

Sure, I’m a hypocrite from time to time, but I try to better myself and be more like Christ.
But I admit I can be a hypocrite unintenionally.

Are you the authority to judge what is of God and what is not?

No, but the authority to discern? Yes. The authority to check the fruit of the spirit? Yes.

1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

You’re proving my point. We have the authority to judge and discern things by the scripture, thank you.

The passage above…to know the truth…what does it say? Does it say to go to the Bible and read the Bible to know the truth?

Does it say go to the Church and ask the Church for truth…? No. Christ is clear on who’s the truth: He is.

Who standards? Do we set the standards ourselves?

Do we? Answer your own questions.

Or did Jesus set the standard and we are to follow that Church?

I challenge you to give me one scripture from the Bible where it tells us to lean on man, where it tells us to lean on the Church. Where it DIRECTLY tells us, not where we can speculate.

Also, give me a scripture where it says man is the source of truth.

John 4:23

But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the** Father** in spirit and in** truth**: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I’ve laid down my case.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You have a different speculation on who it is, as do I. Nowhere does it say man is the pillar and ground of truth, that’d be blasphemous. Know why?

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

Those are Christ’s words, not mine^.

Hypocrites, gossiping, rude…

Matthew 7:16

You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Sure, I’m a hypocrite from time to time, but I try to better myself and be more like Christ.
But I admit I can be a hypocrite unintenionally.

No, but the authority to discern? Yes. The authority to check the fruit of the spirit? Yes.

You’re proving my point. We have the authority to judge and discern things by the scripture, thank you.

Does it say go to the Church and ask the Church for truth…? No. Christ is clear on who’s the truth: He is.

Do we? Answer your own questions.

I challenge you to give me one scripture from the Bible where it tells us to lean on man, where it tells us to lean on the Church. Where it DIRECTLY tells us, not where we can speculate.

Also, give me a scripture where it says man is the source of truth.

John 4:23

But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the** Father** in spirit and in** truth**: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I’ve laid down my case.

We lean on Christ. And we hear Christ this is part of what He said:

Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. 2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers(In other words - man) are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers (In other words send out more men) into his harvest. [Bold and parenthesis mine].

In your disdain of man, you fail to acknowledge the 2nd greatest commandment:

“Love your neighbor as you love yourself”, again it was Christ who said that not me.

As for the Church:

Matthew 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

You see when we can’t resolve things among ourselves (In your words it would be “man”), Christ clearly and unequivocally delineates the authority of the Church as the highest on Earth. His Church.

If you are so against man, then don’t read the Bible (You have not proven that is wasn’t written by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, still written by men chosen by God) and retire to the mountains by yourself, away from every person. You can be alone with our Lord all you want. That is probably no what He wants for you, but he will love you nonetheless.

 

[pablope]

You have a different speculation on who it is, as do I. Nowhere does it say man is the pillar and ground of truth, that’d be blasphemous. Know why?

The Bible says the Church…1 Timothy 3:15 (Douay Rheims)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth

So which church was in existence when this was written? And which exists to today, in our time?

John 14:6

**

Sure, I’m a hypocrite from time to time, but I try to better myself and be more like Christ.
But I admit I can be a hypocrite unintenionally.

No, but the authority to discern? Yes. The authority to check the fruit of the spirit? Yes.

So if you can err…then your judgement can err also, right?

Romans 2: You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

You’re proving my point. We have the authority to judge and discern things by the scripture, thank you.

The “us” here refers to the Apostles, and their appointed successors, those who were put in authority.

Not the individual…for we, you yourself, can be subject to error and can be deceived. And if it is you, as you claim, you are going against the warning in Romans 2.

Does it say go to the Church and ask the Church for truth…? No. Christ is clear on who’s the truth: He is.

The Apostles were tasked with building the Church. Sure, Christ is the truth…but how do you know the truth? Can you say for sure you are free of error? Are you infallible?

[/QUOTE]

 

[pablope]

You

I’ve laid down my case.

Well…so far, you have laid down a weak case, missing out other parts of the Bible too.

Here is my question to you…who spread the gospel to the world? The Bible or the Apostles?

Upon the death of the Apostles, who kept the Church going and surviving for 2000 yrs?

Who kept and preserved the writings of what you now know as the Bible?

Who spread the gospel and Christianity to Asia, to the Americas?

I challenge you to give me one scripture from the Bible where it tells us to lean on man, where it tells us to lean on the Church. Where it DIRECTLY tells us, not where we can speculate.

Also, give me a scripture where it says man is the source of truth.

John 4:23

But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the** Father** in spirit and in** truth**: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I’ve laid down my case.

Sure: But answer this also…where did Christ command anyone to write anything?

The source of truth is Christ…but He sent the apostles…did you forget this?

He commissioned the Apostles…He did not hand down the Bible or tell them to write a book.

Matthew 28:

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Luke 10:

After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road…16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

John 15:

26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

He tells the Apostles…with the HS, they will testify to the Truth. Not the Bible.

And look what Paul does in Gal 2:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Despite the direct revelation to Paul, the Holy Spirit still tells Paul to go to the Apostles in Jerusalem to submit his gospel and get assurance he is not teaching error.

 

[rfournier103]

You have a different speculation on who it is, as do I. Nowhere does it say man is the pillar and ground of truth, that’d be blasphemous. Know why?

Man is NOT the pillar and ground of truth. THE CHURCH IS!!! 1 TIMOTHY 3:15!!!

You CAN NOT deny what 1 Timothy 3:15 says about the CHURCH being “the pillar and foundation of truth”. It’s in the Bible, isn’t it? If it’s in the Bible, how can it be blasphemous?

Many deny the Church’s rightful position as SOLE interpeter of the Sacred Scriptures because of their biggoted and deep-seated anti-Catholic sentiments, their lack of understanding of the Church, or they would rather “be their own boss”.

**2 Peter 1:20-21 **states: Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

Q: Who is Peter speaking about? Who’s interpetation?
A: The Church.

The Catholic Church was founded in 33 AD by Jesus Christ. The Bible was compiled around 394 AD by the Fathers of (you guessed it!) the Catholic Church.

If you look at Acts 8:30-31, we see that a LITERATE Ethiopian eunuch needs the Apostle Philip to INTERPET Isaiah for him. Let’s look…

~Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.~

Jesus is THE authority in our Christian lives. NO ONE would deny that. He has laid down the Law. No one would deny that, either. Who interpets the Law/Word/Scriptures for us as He would want? Is it;

A: Myself/Yourself

B: A preacher who went to a weekend Bible study and then opened his own “church” on Monday

C: A denomination created my humans

D: A 2,000 year old Church founded by Christ with valid Apostolic Succession and priests who spend almost a decade in formation studying Scripture?

 

[JonNC]

Most churches in the aera I live are judgemental and not of God. Why would I want to attend them…?

God has given everyone the ability to spiritually discern scriptures. Nowhere in the Catholic or King James Bible does it say we lean on the Church for understanding.

Follow your own standards, please.

In the great commission, Christ tells is disciples to make disciples of all nations. He then tells them how to do this, first by baptizing, then by “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” Is this not giving to the Church a teaching authority?

I am not Catholic, in part because I believe the teaching of universal jurisdiction of the pope is not supported in scripture or the early Church. However, that doesn’t mean a rejection of the role Christ gave to His Church to teach.

If you, on your on, are “spiritually discerning scriptures”, then you are relying on a human discernment.

Jon

 

[Geo17]

To My Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

This has become like the arguments on the Protestant boards about who has the correct interpretations of the Bible. The truth is we all have some parts correct and others wrong. But we all believe faith in Jesus saves us and then we must obey Him, and we do so willingly if that salvation is real. Therefore none of us are enemies of each other nor of God.

But I will tell you who is. Some of these men have already slipped into our churches. Unfortunately, one is a cousin of mine. He sent me you Tube videos of a scientist he now follows who totally doesn’t believe in God nor the Bible. They think the fallen angels are friendly aliens. They interpret everything in Genesis and on, as being down by these friendly aliens. But some of us know these are the fallen angels. God has been consistently destroying their works, but with each new generation of us, the fallen angels find those who will believe them. To these foolish men the fallen angels promise the powers only God has, and eternal life, which only Jesus can give to any one.

My cousin is now following this man on the Internet and I listened to some of his videos and it scary that a man like my cousin, who was born and raised Catholic, has renounced Jesus and now he waits for the fallen angels to come back. But he thinks they are friendly aliens, and almost every word in the Bible is false. Those men are the enemy, not any of us who Believe the Bible is true, but debate on the fine points of interpretation and translation. I know of this because my cousin is always trying to separate me from God. But that’s not possible. He keeps trying anyway.

Since I am between Bible only and Catholicism I have been looking into what Holy Mother Mary has been saying. If I have this right, She’s saying some time near 2017, the 100th anniversary of Her appearances in Fatima, there may come 3 days of night all over the Earth. When the 3 days of darkness end, there will be supernatural beings here from space. They will take credit for bringing the Sunlight back. They will in fact, be fallen angels and/or the antichrist. These are the beings my cousin and the man he is listening to are waiting for. But they think they are god. And they are telling the same old lie Satan used on Adam and Eve. They say if we follow them and believe them, we will be just like God. These men and the fallen angels are the enemy, not any of us.

 

[JonNC]

=rfournier103;10937981]I think I may have said this before, but the Reformation resulted in a rejection of the Church’s authority (certainly in England), and when you discard authority, you need to replace it.

To the degree that, for the Lutheran reformers, the Papacy had taken on authority not granted to it in scripture or in the early Church, this is true.

I contend that the Bible has ALWAYS been held as authoritative by the Church as the inerrant Word of God, but if you strip away the Church’s God-given authority to interpet the Word, you just have the Bible.

I agree.

Pretty simple, really. The Bible is one of the FEW constants across the board for all Christians (although translations may vary…)

Agreed.

Jon

 

[joe371]

JonNC;10939711]To the degree that, for the Lutheran reformers, the Papacy had taken on authority not granted to it in scripture or in the early Church, this is true.

Only if I am understanding you correctly: If this is true then the CC is doing what Jesus never intended - right?