Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’ll come back to your other points one I can understand them better. But these other responses caught my attention too, so I thought I’d briefly adress them.

The Greater sin is what will make you lose your Salvation after you are already a Christian.

Ok, so you do agree that there are greater and lesser sins?

Unless, I’m radically misunderstanding your former posts regarding losing one’s forgiven status bearing absolutely no significance on what the punishment for sin was before they were actually forgiven, it sounds to me like you are agreeing that there are greater and lesser sins.
Syle:

The origional punishment for all sin is Death(Rom. 6:23).

No. I simply can’t agree with that. Death is certainly one of the consequences of the orginal sin. I won’t argue with this point.

But other consequences for the original sin also included such things as being spiritually separated from God, the amplification of our ability to mistrust the Lord, and spiritual death if no grace from God were active upon us.

In other words, Adam and Eve’s souls were spiritually wounded-- and this spiritual wound was transmitted from Adam and Eve to all of their ancestors after their fall (except Jesus and Mary according to Catholic teachings).

Syele:

We all sin, by that judgement we’d all be in Hell.

Could you elaborate on this point?

It seemed to be thrown in there to be honest, and doesn’t seem to mesh with the rest of your message.

Syele:

Luckily Jesus came so we can have a bit more leeway than that. He will forgive us most sins. The Greater sin cannot be forgiven. You commit that one and you’ll go to Hell.

It’s a bit of a nit-pick on my part, but I don’t think luck has much to do with salvation.

Furthermore, Christ has been active in saving people from the beginning.

Nonetheless, the greater sin is either a mortal sin or else a reference to the unforgivable sin of refusing to repent of a mortal sin. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit seems to indicate a persistent refusal to repent of some mortal sin that one fully understands to be a mortal sin and simply doesn’t care.

Syele:

There are Many passages that say that God’s punishment for sin is death. They begin in Genesis, when He warns Adam and Eve. Here are a few…

But no one is denying that death came to humanity as a result of the original sin. I’m not anyway-- so we agree here.

Where we seem to disagree is with the idea that the only consequence that came as a result of the original sin was death itself. This is simply not true Syele. The original sin has inevitably led to all suffering that we undergo today. The orignal sin resulted in many other consequences in addition to physical death.

Syele:

After we are saved we live as slaves to Christ not to the law of sin and death…

No. I can’t agree with that.

According to Romans 8:15, we did not receive a spirit that makes us a slave again to fear. We received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Likewise, according to Galatians 4:7, we are no longer slaves, but sons; and since we are sons, God has also made us heirs.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

After opening presents with the kids this morning, I couldn’t help but think again of how beautiful they were. I thought to myself, “Who on earth would want to hurts these innocent children? Why would anyone want to lead them away from God’s love?”

Then a passage of Scripture came to mind…
Matthew 18:5-7:

And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin!

Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

When Jesus was talking about the ‘greater sin’ to Pilate, he was talking about those who lead innocent people astray…
John 19:11:

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

The people who don’t know better are certainly not judged to the same degree as those who do. This is seen time and time again within the Scriptures.

As yet another example of this, consider Jesus’s words to the Samaritan woman…
John 4:22:

You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

My apologies Syele. Maybe I’ve totally misunderstood your point in regards to the distinctions relating to greater and lesser sin. But I have to admit that, based on the Scriptural record, I seem to be disagreeing strongly with your statements concerning these distinctions so far.

After reconsidering your other statement further, i have to admit that I simply and honestly have no idea ( ) what you mean when you say this…

Syele:

This is talking about how a person can lose their salvation (The forgiveness they have already recieved) not what the origional punishment was BEFORE the forgiveness occured.

What exactly are you saying here?

Oh, and Merry Christmas by the way.

 

[FromTheCrossroa]

That’s the whole point of issue. The Scriptues indicate no such form of “purification/restoration/healing” AFTER death. Such a teaching attacks the efficacy of the cross of Christ.

Lets try to use a little common sense here. First, would you say when we die, we are instantly perfect, cleansed and restored? There is no scriptural proof-text for that position either. A baby is first born, nurtured and fed, eventually grows and learns. My personal understanding is we will find much the same when we are born of the spirit (die). No one on this earth will die perfect, know everything and have all their understandings or doctrines 100 percent correct. I don’t care if its JPII, or Joe Public. Could God wave a wand and bring us there instantaneously? Sure, He could. But, He could also allow us to be comforted, be fed, taught and grow at our own pace. That to me makes a lot more sense than just cramming a new set of programming into us at the moment of our death. You believe how you want to but, also be honest enough to admit you don’t know any more than the rest of us about our “transition” to eternity. I do believe “pain” will be involved but not torture or the eternal paddle for all the bad things we did. Any time we grow, there is pain involved. Weather it’s the pain of letting go of our pride or pain in coming to terms with all the wasted time haggling over what you thought was “truth”…I believe there is no such thing as a free lunch when we die.

The whole sin factor God dealt with, once for all, through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.Sure we are: The death, burial and resurrection of His Son (see Jn. 14:6). That’s what the cross is all about. The false notion of Purgatory militates against the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

Can you tell me how Purgatory does this? Purgatory is a concept, like the trinity that does not appear in the Bible, but can be inferred. Christ spoke of two places in Ghenna. One where the righteous are comforted and the other of torment. In the story, I believe Purgatory to be the place of comfort and place of growth. A place where pain will exist but where we will also be comforted, lovingly restored, and mercifully corrected.

As I’ve explained, I do not understand Purgatory to be a payment as you have supposed. Why not take those verses further and say we are perfected the moment we become “saved”? If Christs sacrifice ends the effects of sin and punishment, then surely we should all be instantly and forever changed. There should be a billion Christs in this earth. Very few ever approach the ideal. That should tell you something. Maybe, just maybe there is a place between the throne of God and death where we are prepared for eternal life. In our time, it may be a blink of an eye. From our perspective, it may also seem like an eternity. But I’m sure once we get used to being in eternity, many perspectives including our understanding of time will change.

 

[Syele]

After opening presents with the kids this morning, I couldn’t help but think again of how beautiful they were. I thought to myself, “Who on earth would want to hurts these innocent children? Why would anyone want to lead them away from God’s love?”

Then a passage of Scripture came to mind…

When Jesus was talking about the ‘greater sin’ to Pilate, he was talking about those who lead innocent people astray…

The people who don’t know better are certainly not judged to the same degree as those who do. This is seen time and time again within the Scriptures.

As yet another example of this, consider Jesus’s words to the Samaritan woman…

My apologies Syele. Maybe I’ve totally misunderstood your point in regards to the distinctions relating to greater and lesser sin. But I have to admit that, based on the Scriptural record, I seem to be disagreeing strongly with your statements concerning these distinctions so far.

After reconsidering your other statement further, i have to admit that I simply and honestly have no idea ( ) what you mean when you say this…

What exactly are you saying here?

Oh, and Merry Christmas by the way.

Merry Christmas to you too .

As far as what I mean. I’m really not sure how to explain it better to you. Here I will try.

Those who are not Christians will go to hell when they die. Reguardless of what other sins they may have committed, they have committed the greatest sin - complete rejection of Christ. They have done this in one of two ways, they are decieved or they understand but still reject Christ. Reguardless of what other sins these people committed before they died, they have already committed the greatest sin. They will have eternal spiritual death = hell.

Christians also show rejection for Christ being the head of our lives. We do it every time we put anything ahead of Christs will for us. There is only one difference between us and the non-Christian here, We are forgiven for our sin. We still have to suffer the temporal punishments for that sin… including a temporary seperation of our closeness with God. It is temporary because we have the Holy Spirit in us, who convicts us of what we have done. In this way God draws us back to Him. our temporary lapses are not a complete rejection of God… (something unforgivable that will send us to hell) but we CAN cause it to become that serious if we ignore the convictions and refuse to repent.

I do know the Catholic teaching on this, and I’m aware it’s not the same. I’m simply explaining my beliefs on the subject. I agree there are different types of sin, but I believe the consequence of all sin is death. Some have been saved from that consequence, but only as a gift of God.

You seem to have misunderstood another part too. I never ment that death is the only consequence, there are certianly* additional *ones.

 

[Syele]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syele
After we are saved we live as slaves to Christ not to the law of sin and death…
Mr. Ex Nihilo:

No. I can’t agree with that.

7But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Is Following Christ not persuing righteousness? Or do you disagree with scripture?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Merry Christmas to you too .

As far as what I mean. I’m really not sure how to explain it better to you. Here I will try.

Those who are not Christians will go to hell when they die. Reguardless of what other sins they may have committed, they have committed the greatest sin - complete rejection of Christ. They have done this in one of two ways, they are decieved or they understand but still reject Christ. Reguardless of what other sins these people committed before they died, they have already committed the greatest sin. They will have eternal spiritual death = hell.

Christians also show rejection for Christ being the head of our lives. We do it every time we put anything ahead of Christs will for us. There is only one difference between us and the non-Christian here, We are forgiven for our sin. We still have to suffer the temporal punishments for that sin… including a temporary seperation of our closeness with God. It is temporary because we have the Holy Spirit in us, who convicts us of what we have done. In this way God draws us back to Him. our temporary lapses are not a complete rejection of God… (something unforgivable that will send us to hell) but we CAN cause it to become that serious if we ignore the convictions and refuse to repent.

I do know the Catholic teaching on this, and I’m aware it’s not the same. I’m simply explaining my beliefs on the subject. I agree there are different types of sin, but I believe the consequence of all sin is death. Some have been saved from that consequence, but only as a gift of God.

You seem to have misunderstood another part too. I never ment that death is the only consequence, there are certianly* additional *ones.

Ok. I understand where you’re coming from. We agree that there are additional consequences to sin.

What about Adam? Did Adam have the Holy Spirit in him?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Quote: Originally Posted by SyeleAfter we are saved we live as slaves to Christ not to the law of sin and death…

Is Following Christ not persuing righteousness? Or do you disagree with scripture?

But how do you reconcile Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:7 with Romans 6:18?

According to Romans 6:18 we read the we have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

But according to Romans 8:15, on the other hand, we did not receive a spirit that makes us a slave again to fear. We received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Likewise, according to Galatians 4:7, we are no longer slaves, but sons; and since we are sons, God has also made us heirs.

Personally, I think the passage of Romans 6:18 refers to us in our childhood of faith so to speak, before we have matured into the fullness of faith in Christ. In other words, I am saying that even though we are heirs, if we are still children in our faith, then we are no different from a slave.

This is actually very clearly explained in Galatians 4:1-7 for example…

What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father.

So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

No. I am not a slave to Christ. I am a son and heir to God meritted through Christ our Lord by the Holy Spirit, just as the Scriptures clearly explain.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I think it should be noted that purgatory exists in life as well as in death.

When Christ purges our sins from us in life, he is using a form of purgatation, allowing us to share in his sufferings so that he may redeem us by his body and blood, a suffering which manifests Christ’s holy presence being alive within us.

I think this comes back to the distinction between slaves and sons again, as Christ invites us to participate in his sufferings so that we may glorify his name…
Romans 8:17:

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

And again…

In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him.

Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

Nonetheless, coming back to my main point, I believe that many (if not almost all) start to go through purgation while still alive-- even though they’ve already been forgiven. I think many non-Catholics actually believe this to some extent too-- even if they do not call this a manifestation of purgatory.

My only further assertion from a Catholic perspective is the revelation that this purgation does not, by necessaity, end upon physical death. This doesn’t mean that someone could not immediately enter heaven upon death. I’m only stressing that this purgation, even though they’ve already been forgiven, lasts as long as God is required to purge us of our sins – by the body and blood of Christ – in life as well as in death.

 

[john_ennis]

The denying of self and taking up one’s own cross and following Him has everything to do with discipleship, NOTHING to do with effecting the cleansing, purging or forgiveness of your own sins. This can ONLY be done through the “once for all” sacrifice of God the Son, and the cleansing and redeeming power of His shed blood, alone.1 Pet 1:17-19 "If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay {on earth;} knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ.No, John, God allows no one to “participate” in their own salvation, i.e., saving themselves. NO ONE is qualified:"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified AS A GIFT through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."This has to do with with HIS cross, not yours - not ever!"For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"How many “gifts” do you think you’re going to receive this Christmas with an attached note specifying how many hours you must “participate” in helping to pay for it? NONE. Would God, through Christ, do less than sinful men?

When you fully grasp what God has done for you through Christ alone, then you’ll understand the full essence of why we celebrate “Christmas” and God’s selfless giving of His only begotten Son.

He can and does allow us to participate in our salvation. That is His prerogative. It doesn’t mean we save ourselves.

Taking up our crosses is our acceptance of His Grace. None of the texts deny this. Indeed, every text in which Jesus is asked, “What must I do to be saved?” or the like, affirms this…Take up your cross, Love your neighbor, Keep the commandments. Never does Jesus say, you don’t have to do anything.

And no one in the first fifteen centuries of Christianity ever said believing that our works of love and faith affect our salvation is denying that Grace is free. It is a non sequitor. We’re not saving ourselves, but accepting Christ’s salvation.

Peace.
John

 

[Pryority7]

It’s very refreshing to hear that non-Catholics are now believers of the Full Truth; and not just bits and pieces here and there that are true. Jesus Christ gave the Keys to Kingdom of Heaven to Peter the Rock!

Actually, I’ve never left the Catholic Church…I just had issues with some of her beliefs…now it’s different…
P7

 

[apophasis]

john ennis:

He can and does allow us to participate in our salvation. That is His prerogative.

There is absolutely no revelation of this so-called divine prerogative. One is saved by GRACE through FAITH in the Person and substitutionary work of Jesus Christ on the cross alone (Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). The “meeting place” between sinful man and God is an historical place, not future. And the entrance is through blood, not fire. The saved can now participate in fellowship with God, but they could not, nor cannot, participate in their salvation.

It doesn’t mean we save ourselves.

Yes it does. If you in any way participate in your salvation then you are participating in saving yourself. And it is upon this false notion that the RC doctrine of Purgatory is taught. You’ll notice that the doctrine of Purgatory altogether departs from the Biblical teaching that all sins are cleansed through the blood of Christ and introduces instead the pagan idea of fire and personal suffering as a Divine means for cleansing of sins. A notion totally foreign to Scripture.

Catholics (both Latin and Greek) like to refer to 1 Cor. 3:10-15 as their proof text for Purgatory and cleaning by fire. The Greek church does not believe in “Purgatory” but a subsequent cleansing by fire as one approaches God.

But in context 1 Cor. 3 is referring to the works of a believer, not sins. And the fire is figurative for divine judgment (i.e., appraisal) of the believer’s works. The fire is revelatory, evaluative - not purgatorial. The “fire” REVEALS (not purges) the value of a person’s works, and the believer either receives a reward or loses it. There is no cleansing going on in this passage whatsoever. How could there be? Sins are not the issue here. ALL the sins of true believers were dealt with, once for all, by God through the sacrificial death and shed blood of His beloved Son.

Taking up our crosses is our acceptance of His Grace.

Not the way Catholicism presents it. It is the SAVED who are to take up their cross and follow Him. Catholicism presents it as an ACT of salvation, not an act of the saved.

 

[apophasis]

FromTheCrossroa:

Lets try to use a little common sense here. First, would you say when we die, we are instantly perfect, cleansed and restored? There is no scriptural proof-text for that position either.

The true Christian faith is not based on “common sense.” God Himself saysIs. 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD."And Paul teaches the same basic principle:1 Cor 1:20-24 "Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."The doctrine of Purgatory, with its idea of “cleansing fire,” is totally outside the realm of Divine Revelaton and is based solely on worldly “wisdom,” i.e., that which seems “reasonable” to man (common sense).

Physical death does not make the believer “instantly perfect.” It’s upon belief in Christ that he is imputed the righteousness of Christ (justified), and he is co-crucified with Christ, co-buried with Him, and raised to new (resurrected) life “in Him” (see Rom. 6; Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 3:1-3). All who the true believer WAS in Adam is crucified with Christ and he is now raised to new life with Him - the “last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45). In other words, Scripture reveals that all true believers have a perfectly new indentity before God, now being “in Christ.” Physical death does not add anything to this new identity, nor does it change it. It is eternal as Christ Himself.

Upon belief, not death and suffering, the believer is “made righteous” in Christ.Rom 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."The true believer has been “cleansed” of all sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (1Jn. 1:7), and he is “restored” to friendship and fellowship with God through the reconciliatory work of Christ on the cross (2 Cor. 5:18).

Can you tell me how Purgatory does this? Purgatory is a concept, like the trinity that does not appear in the Bible, but can be inferred.

The “word” Trinity is not in the Bible but the doctrine is truly there by the simple fact that the Father, Son and H.S. are all called God and each are revealed in Scripture as separate Persons. But “Purgatory” is not there either in word or doctrine. It is a completely extra-biblical teaching. No writer of Scripture ever taught it.

Christ spoke of two places in Ghenna. One where the righteous are comforted and the other of torment.

I think you’re getting “Gehenna” mixed up with “Hades.” And the “bosom of Abraham” was not described as such a place as YOU describe it. Scripture describes no such future place of pain and comfort for the redeemed through the shed blood of Christ.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

There is absolutely no revelation of this so-called divine prerogative.

Yes there is.

Some people say that the Scriptures do not ever state that “God helps those who help themselves.” And, technically speaking they are right, because no one can save themselves. Only God can save us.

But the Scriptures do say in James 4:8…

Come near to God and he will come near to you.

What this means is that when someone draws closer to God, it’s a result of the Holy Spirit drawing them closer to God.

apophasis:

One is saved by GRACE through FAITH in the Person and substitutionary work of Jesus Christ on the cross alone (Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

Actually, your faith does not save you. Christ’s faith saves you. And everytime you claim that ‘your’ faith saves you, you are acting no differently than the ones you are deriding as being engaged in works righteousness.

Grace is God’s life within you, and his life transforms the whole meaning and direction of your life. In grace, St. Paul declared: “For to me life is Christ, and death is gain” as Philippians 1:21 states.

Ultimately, grace – God’s free gift of himself to you – is life eternal, a life that has already begun. Already, while you are still an earthly pilgrim, grace is “Christ in you, the hope for glory” as Colossians 1:27 notes.

More to the point, grace is the Spirit of God who is “poured out into our hearts” as Romans 5:5 says. Grace, in this sense, is the presense of God’s living, dynamic Spirit, enabling us us to live with a new, abundant inner life that makes us “share in the divine nature” as 2 peter 1:4 notes.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

The “meeting place” between sinful man and God is an historical place, not future. And the entrance is through blood, not fire.

Then why do the Scriptures say this here?

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

And here?
Luke 3:16:

John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Sounds like fire to me. The Holy Spirit is certainly involved too.

apophasis:

The saved can now participate in fellowship with God…

The saved, such as Enoch, Abraham, Moses and Elijah for example, have been participating in fellowship with God well before Christ revealed himself in the incarnation.

apophasis:

…but they could not, nor cannot, participate in their salvation.

Then why do the Scriptures say in James 4:8?

Come near to God and he will come near to you.

Hopefully, by now you understand that we are not claiming to be saving ourselves. We’re only pointing toward those things which we believe to be a manifestation of grace-- God’s life within us.

apophasis:

If you in any way participate in your salvation then you are participating in saving yourself.

Are you claiming that you are saved by your faith in Jesus?

If so, then you are claiming to be participating in saving yourself, are you not?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

quote=apophasis]And it is upon this false notion that the RC doctrine of Purgatory is taught. You’ll notice that the doctrine of Purgatory altogether departs from the Biblical teaching that all sins are cleansed through the blood of Christ and introduces instead the pagan idea of fire and personal suffering as a Divine means for cleansing of sins. A notion totally foreign to Scripture.

You can make empty claims if you wish. The concept of purgatory is in the Scriptures, as has been pointed out to you. And the concept of purgatory wasn’t foreign to the traditions of the Jewish leaders who passed down the Scriptures to us either.

apophasis:

Catholics (both Latin and Greek) like to refer to 1 Cor. 3:10-15 as their proof text for Purgatory and cleaning by fire. The Greek church does not believe in “Purgatory” but a subsequent cleansing by fire as one approaches God.

That’s purgatory-- a subsequent cleansing by fire as one approaches God. You almost can’t get a better definition of purgatory. It happens in both life and death.

apophasis:

But in context 1 Cor. 3 is referring to the works of a believer, not sins. And the fire is figurative for divine judgment (i.e., appraisal) of the believer’s works. The fire is revelatory, evaluative - not purgatorial. The “fire” REVEALS (not purges) the value of a person’s works, and the believer either receives a reward or loses it.

Then why is this considered a painful process to go through?

You can’t reveal their works without a painful separation from their sins apophasis.

Think about what you’re claiming.

apophasis:

There is no cleansing going on in this passage whatsoever. How could there be? Sins are not the issue here. ALL the sins of true believers were dealt with, once for all, by God through the sacrificial death and shed blood of His beloved Son.

Then why don’t people immediately become translated into heaven upon the moment of their salvation?

Why do people continue to sin after they’ve been saved?

What happened to people before Christ appeared on earth?

What difference is there between Sheol of the Hebrew Scriptures and purgatory as taught within Catholicism?

Weren’t there people in Sheol prior to Christ’s death and resurrection who had died but had not fully entered heaven yet?

What were these people in Sheol waiting for?

Weren’t they waiting for Jesus to cleanse and redeem them?

How is this any different from purgatory?

apophasis:

Not the way Catholicism presents it. It is the SAVED who are to take up their cross and follow Him. Catholicism presents it as an ACT of salvation, not an act of the saved.

No. Catholicism presents the action as part of a process toward salvation-- a manifestation of God’s life within in you as he draws us closer to God. Therefore, it is not something the we do-- it is not an act of salvation. Rather, it something that God does through us, a visible sign of God moving us toward salvation-- an action of God through those who are ‘being saved’.

From man’s finite perspective within time and space, we are ‘being saved’.

From God’s infinite perspective from eternity, we are ‘already saved’.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

First of all, Christ’s sacrifice was not “outside of time.” The Son incarnated, being born into the time/space continuum of our world. His sacrifice was an HISTORICAL event which took place in time and space. It had a beginning, and it had an end (“it is finished”). He died and was in the grave for a REAL three days and three nights. And after those real three days and three nights He rose again, bodily. And for a real forty days afterwards, prior to His bodily ascension back to heaven, he taught His disciples concerning the gospel (good news) message they were to take to the world. All this happened (past tense) in our time/space continuum. It is HISTORICAL fact.

Christ was dead for three days, not three nights. Just two nights according to Jewish customs of the time.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

How many “gifts” do you think you’re going to receive this Christmas with an attached note specifying how many hours you must “participate” in helping to pay for it? NONE. Would God, through Christ, do less than sinful men?

One gift. the reason for the season, Christ’s mass. The Christ is that one gift.

 

[apophasis]

You can make empty claims if you wish. The concept of purgatory is in the Scriptures, as has been pointed out to you. And the concept of purgatory wasn’t foreign to the traditions of the Jewish leaders who passed down the Scriptures to us either.

That’s the WHOLE problem, my friend. It hasn’t been pointed out or its existence proved by Scripture. One has yet to prove BY SCRIPTURE that sins are cleansed by fire.

That’s purgatory-- a subsequent cleansing by fire as one approaches God. You almost can’t get a better definition of purgatory. It happens in both life and death.

The “Greeks” don’t see it as “Purgatory.” But the point is, they error as do the “Latins” on that doctrine.

Then why is this considered a painful process to go through?

Where in 1 Cor. 3 does it say it’s a “painful” experience? As I said, the fire is figurative for the omniscient judgment of Christ; it’s revelatory, evaluative, not “purgatorial.” It reveals the value of a man’s works to determine rewards. The text states NOTHING about sins.

You can’t reveal their works without a painful separation from their sins apophasis.

Where in that passage is sin even mentioned? A true believer is separated from his sins at the time of belief in Christ. That’s the purpose of Christ’s sacrificial death:Col. 3:3 “For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."The cross dealt with my sins through blood and death, not fire.

Think about what you’re claiming.

You think about what you’re claiming. The cleansing of sins not by the shed blood of Christ but by fire and your own suffering. That’s blasphemy.

Then why don’t people immediately become translated into heaven upon the moment of their salvation?

How would the gospel be preached to the unsaved, since God determined this effort be accomplished by redeemed men, not angels? And Jesus Himself prayed that we not be taken immediately out of the world (Jn. 17:15).

Why do people continue to sin after they’ve been saved?

We still live in unredeemed bodies. But these sins were already dealt with at the cross.

What happened to people before Christ appeared on earth?

They too were saved by faith and their sins were completely dealt with through Christ’s sacrificial death.

What difference is there between Sheol of the Hebrew Scriptures and purgatory as taught within Catholicism?

Lazareth went straight to the “bosom of Abraham.” There was no fire on his side, no pain, only comfort.

Weren’t there people in Sheol prior to Christ’s death and resurrection who had died but had not fully entered heaven yet?

Yes. Comforted with Abraham.

What were these people in Sheol waiting for?

The BLOOD.

Weren’t they waiting for Jesus to cleanse and redeem them?

AMEN!!

How is this any different from purgatory?

No one is there now. The blood of Christ has taken away all sins; and Paul says to be absent from the body is to be at Home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). Hades is Biblical, “Purgatory” is not. It’s the difference between reality and fantasy. The difference between real earth and “middle earth”; reality and Narnia.

No. Catholicism presents the action as part of a process toward salvation–

Don’t be silly. You’re taught that you can’t enter heaven without it (unless you die completely sinless). And you’re the one who’s suffering there, not Christ. The whole concept is an exercise of unbelief in what Christ Himself accomplished, once for all, through the sacrifice of Himself:1 John 3:5 "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."All who truly believe in Christ are now “in Him.” For the redeemed, the whole sin issue was forever dealt with at the cross.Heb. 9:26b “…but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to *put away sin *by the sacrifice of Himself.”

Heb. 10:12 “…but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God…”
**
Heb. 10:14** “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

 

[apophasis]

Christ was dead for three days, not three nights. Just two nights according to Jewish customs of the time.

Matt. 12:40 "for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."But this is a whole other issue.

 

[apophasis]

One gift. the reason for the season, Christ’s mass. The Christ is that one gift.

And His sacrificial death a one time historical event by which He took away sins, once for all. See my post #454.