Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[Morning_Star15]

First, protestant don’t have the doctrine of Real Presence,
Second, protestant only need to do confession to God only,
Third, Blood of Christ is enough to cleanse all sins, why there should be purgatory? purgatory means Blood of Christ isn’t enough to clean the sin of the world.

It’s not as simple as that. When we sin, we deliberately disobey God and separate ourselves from Him. That separation has to be rectified, either in this world or the next. Rejecting God causes us spiritual harm, and purgatory is a way in which we can overcome that. It’s a way that God offers us to overcome the barrier we put between ourselves and God, so that we can be in full union with God when we enter Heaven (that’s what Heaven is, perfect union with God). In that sense, purgatory is not a punishment or something negative, but part of God’s process of salvation.

Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross needs to be continually applied to our lives, and purgatory is one way in which this is done. Think of it this way, it’s not enough to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour once and be saved once and for all, because every time you sin you reject Him as your Lord and Saviour - something has to be done about this rejection, and that’s where Confession and Purgatory come in, as ways of reconciling us with God.

 

[AlegreFe]

I’ll be praying for him too. I understand what apo feels because I used to agree with him… a long time ago. Then I studied, I learned and I now see the truth for what it is and how it makes sense and how it by no means take away from the sacrifice of the cross. Yep…I understand him, but I no longer agree with him. I’ll pray for him too…
P7

It’s very refreshing to hear that non-Catholics are now believers of the Full Truth; and not just bits and pieces here and there that are true. Jesus Christ gave the Keys to Kingdom of Heaven to Peter the Rock!

 

[AlegreFe]

God believed it into existence? That’s a new one.

You know very well what I mean. I was using the words that were being used within our posts.

apophasis:

As real as Narnia.Col. 2:18 “Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on {visions} he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,”

You’re funny… heh. I could use that same verse and turn it around on you.

apophasis:

You’ll NEVER see me in Purgatory. Why? Because 2000 years ago my Lord made purification of my sins through His sacrificial work on the cross (Heb. 1:3), and He now sits at the right hand of the Majesty on High functioning as my High Priest (“Intercessor”) and “Advocate” before my Father (1 Jn. 2:1). And the Apostle Paul, who got his teaching concerning the faith directly from the Lord, taught long before the notion of Purgatory was introduced into the church by men that to be absent from the body is to be at HOME with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8).

How do you know if you are interpreting those verses in the way that God wants them to be interpreted? Who is your instructor? And is that instructor authorized by God Himself by the laying on of hands by the successors of Peter? Can you trace the pastors and/or ministers of your man-made church back to the apostles and Peter most importantly?

30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah
the prophet and said, “Do you understand
what you are reading?”
31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone
instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in
and sit with him. Acts 8:30-31

apophasis:

Yes, the only way you’ll ever get a so-called “confirmation” on “Purgatory” is through some mystical means, not through the written Word of God. Which is the difference between my faith and yours.

You are right as far as not through the written Word of God. Not all Revelation came through written word on papyrus. The Word was preached not written down. There was no writings at the time of Jesus and the Apostles except for the OT Scriptures. And even when the letters were written (epistles of Paul, Peter…) these letters were not the first instruction on the faith. They have already been preached to when these letters were written. That is the reason why we don’t see everything in Paul’s epistles; and even in the rest of the books of the bible.

24 It is this disciple who testifies to these
things and has written them, and we know
that his testimony is true.
25 There are also many other things that
Jesus did, but if these were to be described
individually, I do not think the whole world
would contain the books that would be
written. John 21:25

apophasis:

As I said before, sweetheart, don’t waste prayers on things that are not real. There’s plenty of terrifying reality in this world on which to spend your prayer time.

You don’t think you’re real?
One of the terrifying things to Jesus is a lost soul.

You are in my prayers.

 

[Bishopite]

God believed it into existence? That’s a new one.As real as Narnia.Col. 2:18 "Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on {visions} he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,"You’ll NEVER see me in Purgatory. Why? Because 2000 years ago my Lord made purification of my sins through His sacrificial work on the cross (Heb. 1:3), and He now sits at the right hand of the Majesty on High functioning as my High Priest (“Intercessor”) and “Advocate” before my Father (1 Jn. 2:1). And the Apostle Paul, who got his teaching concerning the faith directly from the Lord, taught long before the notion of Purgatory was introduced into the church by men that to be absent from the body is to be at HOME with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8).

Yes, the only way you’ll ever get a so-called “confirmation” on “Purgatory” is through some mystical means, not through the written Word of God. Which is the difference between my faith and yours.

As I said before, sweetheart, don’t waste prayers on things that are not real. There’s plenty of terrifying reality in this world on which to spend your prayer time.

1. How do you know what is the written word of God?
2. When you die, will you have completely repented of all of your sins?

 

[apophasis]

You are right as far as not through the written Word of God. Not all Revelation came through written word on papyrus. The Word was preached not written down. There was no writings at the time of Jesus and the Apostles except for the OT Scriptures. And even when the letters were written (epistles of Paul, Peter…) these letters were not the first instruction on the faith. They have already been preached to when these letters were written.

You’re saying the message Jesus told the Apostles to take to the world was about Purgatory? What proof do you have of this? Why then was this message not recorded in the historical Book of Acts? It records what Peter preched to the people, as well as Paul. Both presented the cross of Christ for the cleansing and forgiveness of ALL sins.

That is the reason why we don’t see everything in Paul’s epistles; and even in the rest of the books of the bible.

That’s right. You find NOTHING in Paul’s Epistles, or any of the rest of them. Only the cross of Christ. In fact, the first we see of any writing referring to anyone being cleansed by “fire” is Origen’s. And he taught that even Satan and his fallen angels would be cleansed in such a manner. Of course that teaching was rejected, but it was the first. Augustine wrote on it, and then Gregory the Great. This was long after the Apostolic age. And according to RC doctrine on tradition, tradition is based on Apostolic teaching. But what proof do you have that such a teaching was ever handed down by any Apostle. Especially Paul who said to be absent from the body is to AT HOME with the Lord?.

24 It is this disciple who testifies to these
things and has written them, and we know
that his testimony is true.
25 There are also many other things that
Jesus did, but if these were to be described
individually, I do not think the whole world
would contain the books that would be
written. John 21:25

So you’re claiming Jesus taught on Purgatory? How is it then such an important doctrine would be left out of the Gospel accounts?

You don’t think you’re real? One of the terrifying things to Jesus is a lost soul.

So now you’re claiming that salvation is based on one’s acceptance of your doctrine of Purgatory???

You are in my prayers.

If that’s what you believe salvation is based on, then you’re in my prayers.

 

[apophasis]

1. How do you know what is the written word of God?
2. When you die, will you have completely repented of all of your sins?

According to the written Word of God, I have been cleansed of ALL my sins through the sacrificial, shed blood of Christ on the cross. Salvation is not based on whether or not I have “repented” (confessed) of ALL committed sins, but that I have “repented,” that is, turned (changed directions, a change of mind) from unbelief to belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

But if you’re questioning even what the written Word of God is, then you’re not even at first base yet in respect to the faith.

 

[apophasis]

There seems to be a common understanding between the two points of view. We die and go somewhere, and some form of purification/restoration/healing takes place.

That’s the whole point of issue. The Scriptues indicate no such form of “purification/restoration/healing” AFTER death. Such a teaching attacks the efficacy of the cross of Christ.

I do not believe Purgatory is a place we pay for our sins. Christ did that on the cross.

Absolutely! And it’s His sacrificial blood that cleanses you of ALL sins, as well. And Christ took ALL your sins to the grave with Him, and He rose to new life, having died UNTO them, once for all (Rom. 6:10). And as Paul teaches in his Epistles that the true believer is also raised to new life in Christ. A whole NEW identity before God.

The whole sin factor God dealt with, once for all, through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

The bottom line for me is God can bring us home any way he chooses, and we are not privied to the details.

Sure we are: The death, burial and resurrection of His Son (see Jn. 14:6). That’s what the cross is all about. The false notion of Purgatory militates against the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

 

[Syele]

This last one sums it up well, The wages of sin is not suffering and torture, it is DEATH. The Gift of God is eternal Life. It is a gift. Once you are dead it’s too late to accept that gift. You get one or the other death or life.

Sorry I wasn’t clear, I wasn’t trying to say purgatory is another chance after death. I’m saying you have one punishmnet that is listed for sin… that punishmnet is not suffering but death. Purgatory changes the punishment God says is required for sin. The Punishment for all sin is Death. We all sin so we all deserve death reguardless. God is loving and offers us the alternative of life. Adding a condition that we must suffer before being given life is just made up. Hell is eternal seperation from God. Eternal seperation from God will be AWFUL. All the scriptures about fire and gnashing of teeth are just because a literal description of existing without the presance of God is not possible. I believe alot of what we read about HEaven is also analogy, these things are too different from our current existance to unterstand exactly how they will be. Being purified is discussed in the Bible, but it is also allegory.

 

[apophasis]

MariaG:

Heb 1:3b “When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,”

Let’s start with this one. Where exactly does this verse contradict the Catholic teaching of purgatory?

Christ is outside of time. How can Christ’s sacrifice be good for my sins today? Because Christ’s sacrifice is not limited to time. Christ’s sacrifice is outside of time. God is outside of time.

First of all, Christ’s sacrifice was not “outside of time.” The Son incarnated, being born into the time/space continuum of our world. His sacrifice was an HISTORICAL event which took place in time and space. It had a beginning, and it had an end (“it is finished”). He died and was in the grave for a REAL three days and three nights. And after those real three days and three nights He rose again, bodily. And for a real forty days afterwards, prior to His bodily ascension back to heaven, he taught His disciples concerning the gospel (good news) message they were to take to the world. All this happened (past tense) in our time/space continuum. It is HISTORICAL fact.

Now it is true, God transcends time. Hence, He laid upon the Savior, at the time of His historical sacrifice, ALL the sins of the world: past, present and future. But the sacrifice itself took place in actual time.

Now those were my and your sins that were put upon the Savior 2000 years ago. They were not His own, and they were not just those who were His contemporary (“behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”).

And the word has since gone out that whoever believes in His Person and work, through faith, enter into the once for all salvation He historically procured through the offering up of Himself. Because what was laid on the Savior 2000 years ago can never be laid back on the sinner who believes in Him.

For 1400 years, through the Law of Moses, it was demonstrated to men by God that men are cleansed from sin through the shedding of sacrificial blood, not fire. The blood of God’s Lamb being the ultimate, and His death the final sacrifice. Cleansing by fire, however, is an ancient pagan concept and has nothing to do with the God of the Bible or the true Christian faith. It is outside the realm of Divine Revelation.

 

[PauloFreire2]

Many Protestants have typically taken Paul literally when he wrote that one can be ‘saved’ in this life. Of course they’ve ignored all the other Biblical passages concerning the Final Judgment, which in and of itself argues against total salvation in this life. Well, the ‘born-again’ types feel that if they’ve been ‘saved’ in this life, there’s no need for a purgatory. They’re SAVED, here, now, and forever, even if they keep sinning like crazy before they die.

 

[john_ennis]

According to the written Word of God, I have been cleansed of ALL my sins through the sacrificial, shed blood of Christ on the cross.

But if you’re questioning even what the written Word of God is, then you’re not even at first base yet in respect to the faith.

I think Bishopite was pointing out that, when one assumes that the written Word (Bible) is the total Word, you’re leaving yourself without any way of knowing which books the Word contains–which are inspired–for none of them tell you. It was the Church councils which tell us the 27 books of the NT.
This is why St. Augustine said he could not even accept the Bible if the Church’s authority didn’t legitimize it.
But you say their (the Church’s) judgment is not the Word–not authoritative.
So how can you know what the written word is? That was the point.

Peace.

John

 

[Mannyfit75]

If they are saved they are in Christ. If they are in Christ they have the righteousness, holiness, and perfection of Christ. From what does Christ then need to be purged?

The understanding in Purgatory is more clear when you know that there are two types of sins. Mortal Sin (Deadly Sin) and venial sin.

Mortal sin destroy our union with God, and we must repent and confess our sins to restore our relationship with God.

Venial sins are sin that doesn’t destroy the state of the soul. Those who die in the state of venial sin go to purgatory so their sins will be burn or purge from them.

Protestants don’t have a belief in venial and mortal sin even though the Bible say there is a sin that is deadly.

1 John 16-17.
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly (venial), he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin (mortal), about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

A person who die in God’s grace will go to heaven. These are the souls of the righteous. Those who have venial sin that is not deadly will be purge in purgatory. Those who die without God’s grace are condemned to hell.

 

[john_ennis]

First of all, Christ’s sacrifice was not “outside of time.” The Son incarnated, being born into the time/space continuum of our world. His sacrifice was an HISTORICAL event which took place in time and space. It had a beginning, and it had an end (“it is finished”).
Now it is true, God transcends time. Hence, He laid upon the Savior, at the time of His historical sacrifice, ALL the sins of the world: past, present and future. But the sacrifice itself took place in actual time.

Now those were my and your sins that were put upon the Savior 2000 years ago. They were not His own, and they were not just those who were His contemporary (“behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”).

And the word has since gone out that whoever believes in His Person and work, through faith, enter into the once for all salvation He historically procured through the offering up of Himself. Because what was laid on the Savior 2000 years ago can never be laid back on the sinner who believes in Him.

.

The fact that Christ on Holy Thursday before he was crucified, could say truly, “This is my body…” ought to make us not at all hesitant to believe that the sacrifice has effect outside of time.

Regarding our own part–the symbol of the cross is certainly sacrificial. It’s a deliberate choice of words when Jesus tells us–if we wish to follow Him–we must take up our crosses.

The sacrifice and suffering involved on our part when we take up our crosses are given saving value by Christ’s sacrifice. He is lovingly allowing (not needing) our participation in our own salvation.

Isn’t it great!?

John

 

[john_ennis]

Purgatory changes the punishment God says is required for sin. The Punishment for all sin is Death. We all sin so we all deserve death reguardless. God is loving and offers us the alternative of life. Adding a condition that we must suffer before being given life is just made up. .

I don’t know anybody who would say that God doesn’t ask even the saved to suffer, before being given life. I mean at least here, and now; see what I mean?

And why? Isn’t it part of our preparation for life? We all agree, don’t we, that the suffering we endure in this life is very real, and that it doesn’t mean Christ didn’t pay the Punishment for sin.

The suffering involved in Purgatory could be for the same reason as it is in this world, couldn’t it?

It’s really only a question of whether purgative suffering can happen now AND after death or just now. It’s not a question of whether it’s made up–we know it exists for all the saved.

Peace.
John

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Sorry I wasn’t clear, I wasn’t trying to say purgatory is another chance after death. I’m saying you have one punishmnet that is listed for sin… that punishmnet is not suffering but death.

But that’s just plain wrong.

Death is certainly not the only punishment listed for sin. And almost all suffering that I can think of comes from the primordial sin of the adversary. In fact, if no one had ever sinned, there would no suffering period-- and we would be able to perfectly glorify the Lord totally without any suffering at all.

Here’s just two examples of many within the Scriptures where suffering results from the sins the people commit here…
Numbers 14:34:

For forty years—one year for each of the forty days you explored the land—you will suffer for your sins and know what it is like to have me against you.

And here…

You will suffer the penalty for your lewdness and bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

The problem with this, though, is that not all suffering is directly linked with people’s own personal sins. We can also often suffer greatly for the sins that others commit too even though we are not guilty of these sins.

For example, one portion of a commandent makes this kind of inheritted suffering very clear…

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

In other words, the effects of the sins of their fore-fathers (as opposed to the guilt of their sins of their fore-fathers) carry over onto their descendents.

So, for example, if a father wastes all their money and ends up in poverty, their child is going to grow up in poverty too. If their child is not able to break out of this impoverished state inheritted from their father, then this impovershed state could likewise be inheritted further on from there-- something which could very possibly set up a chain reaction of their descendents likewise being caught in a cycle of poverty.

It is in this way, but applied to issues of faith, that we see that God is punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate him.

In other words, the effects of the sins of our fore-fathers carry over onto us-- and potentially onto our descendents as well. But the guilt of the sins of our fore-fathers do not carry over onto us-- nor to our descendents either.

Now in relation to the guilt of the sins of our fore-fathers, I think this stops with the death of the person who is guilty of the crimes,

For example, we read…

Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on** his own head**.

"But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

"He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife.

He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

He withholds his hand from sin
and takes no usury or excessive interest.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

There’s also these two passages that need to be considered as well…
Luke 13:1-3:

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.

Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

And this…
John 9:2-3:

His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.”

No. Death is certainly not the only punishment for sin.

In fact, the effects of sin are the punishments for sin.

 

[MariaG]

Sorry I wasn’t clear, I wasn’t trying to say purgatory is another chance after death. I’m saying you have one punishmnet that is listed for sin… that punishmnet is not suffering but death. Purgatory changes the punishment God says is required for sin. The Punishment for all sin is Death. We all sin so we all deserve death reguardless. God is loving and offers us the alternative of life. Adding a condition that we must suffer before being given life is just made up. Hell is eternal seperation from God. Eternal seperation from God will be AWFUL. All the scriptures about fire and gnashing of teeth are just because a literal description of existing without the presance of God is not possible. I believe alot of what we read about HEaven is also analogy, these things are too different from our current existance to unterstand exactly how they will be. Being purified is discussed in the Bible, but it is also allegory.

Why do I start to read when I know I won’t have time to catch up full?

The belief that the punishment for all sin is death absolutely contradicts scripture.

Scripture tells us, not all sin leads to death. It has been quoted many times on this thread. You are starting out with a completely false belief that contradicts God’s inspired written word.

Care to start over?

You again assert that the purification in scripture is allegorical. Again, could you please cite a source other than your own interpretation?

I say my interpretation is correct. I say that the Holy Spirit leads me. AND I can show ECF who back up the interpretation of the CAtholic Church.

Respectfully, where is your source other than you own personal claim? Show me that you teaching, that seems to start with the verifiably false fact that “all sin leads to death” is not a false teaching that has come along.

Not all sin leads to death. Scripture says so.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Why do I start to read when I know I won’t have time to catch up full?

The belief that the punishment for all sin is death absolutely contradicts scripture.

Scripture tells us, not all sin leads to death. It has been quoted many times on this thread. You are starting out with a completely false belief that contradicts God’s inspired written word.

Care to start over?

Excellent point.

Here’s a fine Scriptural reference to sins that do not lead to death…
1 John 5:16-17:

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Jesus backed this up too by referencing to greater and lesser sins. For example, we read here…
John 19:11:

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Here’s another…
Mark 3:28-29:

I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

This greater sin seems to be a sin that leads to death.

Here’s another example…
1 Timothy 5:24:

The sins of some men are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them.

I think, like you said MariaG, the belief that the punishment for all sin is death absolutely contradicts Scripture.

I’ve already covered the fact that there are also many other things that people suffer besides death due to these sins. The effects of sins are much more than death. These effects include fear, mistrust, greed, starvation, dishonesty, etc. So the claim that the only effect of sin is death doesn’t seem to be sustainable from the Scriptures either.

 

[apophasis]

The fact that Christ on Holy Thursday before he was crucified, could say truly, “This is my body…” ought to make us not at all hesitant to believe that the sacrifice has effect outside of time.

Regarding our own part–the symbol of the cross is certainly sacrificial. It’s a deliberate choice of words when Jesus tells us–if we wish to follow Him–we must take up our crosses.

The sacrifice and suffering involved on our part when we take up our crosses are given saving value by Christ’s sacrifice. He is lovingly allowing (not needing) our participation in our own salvation.

Isn’t it great!?

John

The denying of self and taking up one’s own cross and following Him has everything to do with discipleship, NOTHING to do with effecting the cleansing, purging or forgiveness of your own sins. This can ONLY be done through the “once for all” sacrifice of God the Son, and the cleansing and redeeming power of His shed blood, alone.1 Pet 1:17-19 "If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay {on earth;} knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ.No, John, God allows no one to “participate” in their own salvation, i.e., saving themselves. NO ONE is qualified:"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified AS A GIFT through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."This has to do with with HIS cross, not yours - not ever!"For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"How many “gifts” do you think you’re going to receive this Christmas with an attached note specifying how many hours you must “participate” in helping to pay for it? NONE. Would God, through Christ, do less than sinful men?

When you fully grasp what God has done for you through Christ alone, then you’ll understand the full essence of why we celebrate “Christmas” and God’s selfless giving of His only begotten Son.

 

[Syele]

1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Notice in verse 13 before your quote that This is addressed to those who are already saved, “to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” These people have already been forgiven for their sins. This is not to everyone in general. This is talking about how a person can lose their salvation (The forgiveness they have already recieved) not what the origional punishment was BEFORE the forgiveness occured.

This greater sin seems to be a sin that leads to death.

The Greater sin is what will make you lose your Salvation after you are already a Christian. The origional punishment for all sin is Death(Rom. 6:23). We all sin, by that judgement we’d all be in Hell. Luckily Jesus came so we can have a bit more leeway than that. He will forgive us most sins. The Greater sin cannot be forgiven. You commit that one and you’ll go to Hell.

There are Many passages that say that God’s punishment for sin is death. They begin in Genesis, when He warns Adam and Eve. Here are a few…

Romans 7:7-13
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

Romans 8

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
…
6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
…
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
…
13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Eph 2
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Col 2:13a
And you, being dead in your sins

Ezek. 18
4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Romans 6:21
Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death

After we are saved we live as slaves to Christ not to the law of sin and death…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Notice in verse 13 before your quote that This is addressed to those who are already saved, “to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

But they’re not ‘already saved’. The process of salvation has begun in them-- they won’t be ‘fully saved’ until they reach the beautific vision of God while in heaven. And, down below, you yourself admit that they can later fall away (ie., lose salvation).

Syele:

These people have already been forgiven for their sins.

Yes. They’ve been forgiven of their sins-- and no one is denying this part. But the effects of these sins can still linger long after they’ve been forgiven.

Furthermore, if they sin again after they’ve been forgiven, then they need to align themselves to God’s grace again-- and they can fall away from God again if they fail to be open to God’s grace.
Syle:

This is not to everyone in general.

It is generally talking about all believers in Christ.

Syele:

This is talking about how a person can lose their salvation (The forgiveness they have already recieved) not what the origional punishment was BEFORE the forgiveness occured.

That doesn’t make sense Syele. I’m not following this reasoning at all to be honest.

So you’re saying that the person can lose their salvation, and that ‘losing one’s salvation’ means ‘losing one’s forgiven status’?

But, more to the point, you’re saying that losing one’s forgiven status bears absolutely no significance on what the punishment for sin was before they were actually forgiven?

Am I actually understanding this correctly?

my head hurts

I have to admit that you’ve really lost me here.

Before I go any further, I need to step back, stop for a moment, and ask you what exactly you are saying here.

What exactly you are saying here?