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Sean_Boyle
Guest
That event continues to this day.
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Mickey
Guest
Amen.
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AlegreFe
Guest
It’s not so much the sins that are cleansed by fire. It’s the effects of those sins that are cleansed. We are wounded due to our sins, so those wounds are being cleansed. Our self-love is being cleansed also. Those works that we did in vain are being cleansed. All these are being cleansed by that fire.
Our sin is cleansed by the blood He shed during His agony in the garden. Our sin is cleansed by the blood that was shed during the scourging. Our sin is cleansed by the blood and water that came from the side of Christ when He was stabbed while hanging on the cross. Our sins are cleansed because of Christ’s Passion, Death and Resurrection!
If we still have sins that have not been forgiven, mainly mortal sins, then we go to hell. There is no way that we would go to purgatory for mortal sins that have not been forgiven. If that was the case, then purgatory would seem more like a second chance and there is no way that purgatory is a second chance. Once we are forgiven for our sins we go to Heaven with a pitstop to Purgatory first if need be.
The Greeks? The Latins?
Where do you get this stuff? :whacky:Here is something for you to sink your teeth into about Purgatory.
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AlegreFe
Guest
You’re absolutely right my friend. :yup:I hope you realize that this sacrifice is still going on as we speak.
Since God is outside of time, the sacrifice is still present to God the Father.6 Then I saw standing in the midst of
the throne and the four living creatures
and the elders, a Lamb that seemed to
have been slain. Rev 5:6
This is what is going on at our Mass every single day. We don’t crucify Jesus again. It is that same sacrifice that happened at Calvery. We are making that one time sacrifice present to us.
I love the book of Revelation! That is OUR book… the Catholic’s that is!
Well the whole Bible is our book but the Book of Revelation is our Heaven on Earth that is the Mass! The one Worship that is taking place in Heaven is taking place in our Mass today and every day! Read Scott Hahn’s book about the Mass and the book of Revelation.
The Lamb’s Supper - The Mass as Heaven on Earth
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apophasis
Guest
And you’re still eating yesterday’s breakfast?
That event took place in our time/space continuum. It had a beginning, it had an end. Scripture even tells us the time of day it was and the actual number of days and nights He laid dead in the tomb. Then in this earth’s time/space continuum, a very glorious thing happened: He rose bodily from it - alive.Rom. 4:25 "He who WAS delivered up because of our transgressions, and WAS raised because of our justification."No my friend, in this world there are beginnings and there are ends. We live in a real world into which the Son incarnated and operated.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Actually, I think a bigger problem is the idea of the Scriptures being self-interpretive without instruction from someone who already knows the proper exegesis of the Scriptures.
But that’s another thread I think.
Having said that, how can someone know that your interpretation is the correct one?
More to the point, when you say that this is merely a figurative or allegorical language, by what authority do you subscribe?
As the website linked to above notes, even though all these different faiths and denominations have different views concerning the individual judgement at death of each person, nonetheless Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox have always agreed with each other that there is a kind of final purification for those who need it.
More to the point, it was not until the protestant reformers came in the 1500s that any Christians denied the idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.
continued…
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
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Where in 1 Cor. 3 does it not say it’s a “painful” experience?
What part of part of being saved but as one escaping through flames is not painful?
This is fairly clear language apophasis. In fact, one has to do some serious deconstruction of the Scriptural record in order to force this passage to mean the opposite of what it actually says.
Just as in life so it is within death-- having one’s works tested as if passing through flames is a painful process apophasis. Unless some miraculous event transpired, such as with the Hebrews caught within the fires of the king, escaping through flames is a very painful prcoess. Unless a miracle happens, escaping through flames usually results in at least second and third degree burns.
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Then why does the very next passage say this?
If this passage is only refering to the determining of the value of one’s works – revealing the value of a man’s works to determine rewards – then why does the very next passage talk about God destroying those who destroy God’s temple?
If this passage is only refering to the determining of the value of one’s works – revealing the value of a man’s works to determine rewards – then why does Paul ask don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?
I think your interpretation is actually the opposite of what the passage in question actually means. The reason why Paul is talking about building up things using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, is because he is utlimately taking about us as a temple of the Holy Spirit.
In other words, he’s talking about these various materials because they are perishable things which can really be destroyed by fire.
And he’s going one step further, connecting the destruction of these materials with a literal process whereby God will really destroy those aspects of our soul which need to be cleansed through the blood of Christ-- a real process that will really be painful, just as is we were really passing through flames.
Consequently, if there is nothing redeemable about our souls, then they will perish in the eternal destruction of hell-- a totally different kind of pain that is very different from the pain experienced in purgatory.
How literal are you going to get here?
Even though the Scriptures do not always state that people are breathing in a particular passage, I can can assure you that they are breathing even though the Scriptures do not directly state this all the time.
So too with works.
Is not our failure to do the works which God fore-ordained us to do not the very reason we are condemned?
Are sins not the opposite of doing the work that God fore-ordained we should do?
Then why do people continue to sin after they’ve become a believer in Christ?
Are you saying that you’re absolutely perfect, now totally without sin, and that you no longer sin because you believe in Jesus?
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MariaG
Guest
No one has claimed that scripture says our sins are cleansed by fire except you. Nowhere does the teaching of purgatory deny that we are cleansed from our sins through Christ’s blood. The saving grace of Christ’s blood is applied, and we are purged from our sins and the effects of our sins. This is the definition of purgatory.
Our sins are cleansed through the redeeming blood of Christ AS IF through fire, as per scripture.
The teaching of purgatory is the definition of how Christ’s blood cleanses us. It’s Christ’s blood that cleanses us. Purgatory describes how it will happen.
God Bless,
Maria
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MariaG
Guest
Respectfully, how does this contradict the Catholic teaching of purgatory?
The official Catholic teaching of purgatory does not specify a “time”. Some believe that this purifying fire will be instanteneous the moment we die, citing the above scripture. Others believe that a period of “time” is involved. The Catholic Church has no “official” position, although JPII did come out and say that he felt that purgatory should be thought of as more of a process (possibly instantaneous) rather than a place.
For most Catholic Christians, we “think” of purgatory as a place. Most find it easier to think of purgatory as a place and some are influenced by private revelations. But the truth is that purgatory is not defined as a place.
That would be blasphemy if one thought that fire alone could cleanse sin.
But that is not what is being claimed.
Nowhere is Christ’s redeeming blood being denied except by you who keep saying that the Catholic Church teaches this. We do not. The teaching of Purgatory (nor any teaching of the Catholic Church) does not deny that our sins are cleansed through Christ’s redeeming sacrifice.
God Bless,
Maria
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Alexius
Guest
We still sin don’t we? :yup: God cannot let unclean beings into Heaven. So He “washes” us clean just like baptism. :yup: So what’s the problem ?
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
So He “washes” us clean just like baptism. :yup: So what’s the problem ?Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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MariaG
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This right here is one reason some cannot grasp the understanding of the Catholic teaching of purgatory.
But as you said earlier Mr. Ex Nihilo, where was this belief, a belief that reflects a “once saved always saved” kind of thinking reflected in the teachings of Christians before the reformation? Nowhere.
I would encourage people to look at this link to Scripture Catholic and read the explanation to scripture and the ongoing nature of justification. Discussion of this can only be limited in this thread, but I think it is valuable for people to read and understand the Catholic position on scripture concerning the ongoing nature of justification and how this relates to the teaching on purgatory.
IV. Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a one-time event)
There is also a good article that helps explain and addresses the question “once for all” as well as explain what purgatory is. It is a lengthy article but apparently we/I are not explaining things well because most non-Catholics here still are not understanding what purgatory is and what is isn’t. I would encourage people to read it. It is a good article, here is a snippet below.
God Bless,
Maria
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Montalban
Guest
And Catholics believe that you’ve got to keep giving God ‘satisfaction’ for sinning, even though God could never want for anything
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MariaG
Guest
No, Catholics just take scripture very seriously and believe that nothing unclean shall enter heaven.And Catholics believe that you’ve got to keep giving God ‘satisfaction’ for sinning, even though God could never want for anything
Purgatory has nothing to do with “giving God satisfaction for sinning” since we do nothing in purgatory and God does it all.
I truly suggest you actually read the article below since you clearly do not have an understanding of what the teaching of purgatory is unless you wish to hold onto your caricature of understanding and continue to mock something that the Church never taught.
Purgatory is all about the blood. The saving blood of Jesus Christ and how through His saving blood, God cleanses our soul.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Very well said MariaG.
Actually, that was extremely well said. :tiphat:
It would seem that many non-Catholics (even including some Orthodox at times) simply enjoy not actually listening to anything we’re actually trying to explain to them.
I’m certainly not saying that all non-Catholics act this way. Indeed, many that I meet in direct encounters are more than happy to agree to disagree without debate. They are more than happy to agree that we have our faith and they have theirs-- and let God sort it out in the end according to one’s faith.
It’s just that many that I’ve encountered here at these non-Catholic forums, even after these things are clearly explained to them, seem to almost need for us to be wrong-- and that no amount of explaning any subject we explain for them will ever be acceptable until we somehow admit the we Catholics were wrong all along.
sigh
Actually, the more I read their posts, the more I realize that they need for us to have their misconceptions about Catholicism for their arguments to work. Often, when they find we don’t actually believe what they thought we believed, they don’t actually know what to say-- and instead insist that we assume the pre-supposed role that they insist they assume we beleive so that they can resume their old tired arguments.
Even back when I was Lutheran, I never used this sad approach that I see many other non-Catholics using around here on these forums. For example, I never thought the Catholic Church was “The ##### of Babylon”, even though some Lutheran teachings do in fact make this claim. Back when I was Lutheran, I just thought that ‘they’ were ‘in error’. Perhaps this was an indication that my spirit was open to the Spirit’s motion even though I did not have the fullness of truth revealed to me.
I thank God so much for him leading me to the Catholic faith-- and I have no regrets at all for once being Lutheran either. But I’m starting to realize that if a non-Catholic cannot even see these basic, common, Spirit-led similarities between Catholicism and various forms of protestantism (like I did back then for example), then it would seem that we are indeed wasting our time.
More to the point, it appears that their spirits are simply not open to the Spirit’s motion-- and I don’t think any reasonable arguments will ever persuade them until they are actually in a position to really agree that we could possibly be right after all. More often than not, in the case of the extreme anti-Catholic types, their claims against the Church basically amount to conspiracy theories, sometimes only slightly less insane than a convoluted, irate, Jack Chick comic book. :whacky:
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apophasis
Guest
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed.), #1455 it is specifically said that those in purgatory are expiating (making amends for, satisfaction for) their sins. This expiation then is obviously the result of their enduring the suffering caused by this purgatorial “fire.” Of course the CCC then contradicts itself by saying Christ expiated our sins once for all. I have found when studying the CCC that whatever orthodox, grace teachings it does present based on divine revelation (God’s written Word), it then takes away through its extra-biblical traditions, such as its non-biblical doctrine of purgatory. What it builds up it then tears down.
Scripture never speaks of sins as merely “wounding” men, but sin brought about death - both physical and spiritual, beginning with Adam, the father of the human race and the representative head of all his descendants. The guilt of his sin was placed to our account:Rom. 5:12 "Therefore, just as through ONE MAN sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death spread to ALL MEN, because all sinned (i.e, in Adam).Paul goes on to prove his point pointing out that from Adam to Moses (prior the giving of the Law) men died, not because they transgressed specific Commandments, but simply because they were born in Adam - held guilty. According to Scripture, not man-made tradition, God adjudges all men to be guilty sinners in Adam, just as He adjudges all believers to be righteous (justified) in Jesus Christ. Which is what he meant when he wrote:Rom. 5:18-19 "So then as through ONE TRANSGRESSION (Adam’s) there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through ONE ACT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (Christ’s on the cross) there resulted justification of life to all men (i.e., believers). For as through the ONE MAN’S disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the ONE (obedience of the cross) the many will be made righteous (i.e., through faith in Him).Man’s fall into sin with Adam was absolutely fatal. All men born into this world are dead and enslaved to sin. All are in need of LIFE and redemption. The need to be set free from the bondage of sin. Not simply in need of “wounds” to be cleansed. Jesus saidJohn 8:36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."And John writes in his Epistle:1 John 5:11 "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this LIFE is in His Son.
1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."The unbiblical, man-made concept of purgatory has no leg to stand on in light of this divine truth concerning Christ and those who are now “in Him.” As the writer of Hebrews testifies:Heb 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin (How? By purgatorial fire? NO!) by the sacrifice of Himself.And John writes:Rev 1:5b "To Him who loves us and released us from our sins [by fire? NO!) by His blood."None of this has anything to do with the cleansing one’s “works,” which makes no sense at all, since one does not clean works as if you can make bad works into good ones, dirty works into clean ones.
As said previously, the “fire” in 1 Cor. 3 is figurative for the omniscience of Christ and His appraisal of the redeemed believer’s works done in this life, done in this body (2 Cor. 5:10). An appraisal in which He will bring to light even the motives of a saint’s heart:1 Cor 4:5 "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, {but wait} until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of {men’s} hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.For this reason too, even the unbiblical concept of men elevating other men (or women) to a special level of “sainthood” (canonized) has absolutely no leg to stand on. No man (Pope of Prelate) has the ability to know the motives of the heart.
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apophasis
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No it’s not. Only sacrificial blood cleanses:Col. 1:20 “…and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross;”
No it’s not. Only “the blood of His cross.”
That’s better.
No they’re not. They are cleansed because of His sacrificial death alone. He was raised because of our justification (Rom. 4:25).
If you believe this then you call Peter, Paul and John liars:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
1 John 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.”
This whole argument is moot since you must first prove there is even such a place as purgatory. This you have not done. How will you? How can you? Scripture speaks nothing of it. What proof do you have that ANY Apostle taught of it, even orally? Rome says that all its tradition must be based on Apostolic teaching. If you believe Oregin got his teaching straight from the Apostles, then you must accept his teaching that Satan and his fallen angels will also be cleansed by fire. If you believe Augustine and Gregory, then show me where they prove their doctrine was orally taught by any Apostle.
The article had no substance. NONE of the Biblical references actually taught the doctrine of Purgatory. Yes, it read INTO those passages the unbiblical doctrine, but none actually teach it.
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apophasis
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Mr. Ex Nihilo:
True Christianity is also based on Divine Revelation, never on the personal beliefs of mere men - even religious authorities. Jesus never taught Purgatory, nor did any of the N.T. writers inspired by the Holy Spirit; whose focus on the removal of a man’s sins in the N.T. Scriptures is always rooted the sacrificial blood of Christ. Fire is NEVER presented as a final means of cleansing of any sins.
1 John 3:5 “You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.”
True Judaism was never based on men’s traditions or personal beliefs (Christ Himself rebuked them). Where in the Tanach is Purgatory ever actually taught???
True Christianity is also based on Divine Revelation, never on the personal beliefs of mere men - even religious authorities. Jesus never taught Purgatory, nor did any of the N.T. writers inspired by the Holy Spirit; whose focus on the removal of a man’s sins in the N.T. Scriptures is always rooted the sacrificial blood of Christ. Fire is NEVER presented as a final means of cleansing of any sins.
Again, Purgatory was not taught by the Apostles or by men directly after the Apostolic age. It did, howeve, creep in the back door and become an accepted doctrine in the Latin church, but based strictly on human reasoning, not on any Divine Revelation. It was jettisoned by the Reformers for that specific reason. It was time to return to a Biblical faith. A faith based on Divine Revelation, not the imaginations of men.
That’s like asking where in the Scriptural references pertaining to Heaven does it NOT say it’s a painful experience? Again, 1 Cor. 3 has nothing to do with cleaning a soul of sins, but it’s a man’s “works” that are in question and being examined:1 Cor 3:10-15 "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it (his work) is {to be} revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss;To apply this passage to your doctrine of Purgatory is to deny the passage itself. It is wholly about works and the fire neither purges nor cleanses anyone, but reveals the value of a man’s WORKS for the Divine purpose of reward or loss. In fact, those who apply this passage to the unbiblical doctrine of Purgatory, or even teach it, for that matter, if saved, will lose reward because the doctrine of Purgatory militates the foundation Paul laid, which is the Person of Jesus Christ and His substitutionary sacrifice by which He put away sins once for all:Heb. 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
1 John 3:5 “You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.”
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apophasis
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Based on 1 Cor. 3:15? All of it. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with being saved. The CONTEXT is the examination of a saved man’s WORKS.1 Cor. 3:15 "If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.The emphatic, “but he himself” contrasts the person with his works and pointedly upholds the believer’s security. Though he may suffer loss because of works which do not meet the test of Divine judgment, his salvation is not in question here because it is not based on works but faith in Christ. He himself was bought, purchased (redeemed) with precious blood (1 Pet. 1:18-19). And at the cross his sins were forever “put away,” even buried with Christ (Rom. 6:10).
Yes, very clear, indeed. But you’re the one doing the destroying, corrupting Paul’s teaching to conform to your beloved doctrine. But the truth is, my friend, if you’re not saved then nothing in Paul’s teaching here pertains to you. But if your are saved then the negatives contained here DO pertain to you because your teaching of Purgatory does not coincide with the Foundation Paul laid.
Do you know what a paragraph is? It indicates a change of topic. Verse 16 is a paragraph change, so is verse 18.
Scripture reveals my sins, past, present, and future, GOD dealt with at the cross of Christ, once for all.Heb. 9:26b "…but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.The doctrine of Purgatory blatantly denies this Biblical truth
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apophasis
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Have you read my posts??? In NONE of them do I claim Scripture says our sins are cleansed by fire.
Sure it does. Purgatory has to do with venial sins, Maria. Venial sins you cannot take into Heaven with you. If you die with these venial sins still attached to you, then obviously the blood of Christ never did cleanse you of them, hence they must be dealt with while in “Purgatory.” The place where you must expiate those sins and suffer the “temporal punishment” that’s required of them/you.
Can you be any more irrational, Maria? Purgatory is about fire, not blood. You’re trying so hard to be Protestant in your beliefs on this and yet still remain Catholic.
Actually the question is not how any teachings in Scripture contradict Catholic teachings, but how Catholic teachings (like Purgatory) contradict Scripture - the revealed, written Word of God.
The “truth” is? On what Divine revelation are you basing this “truth” of yours? How is it YOU possess the defining word on this “in house” Catholic controversy? Were you given direct, divine revelation?
RC’ism is notorious for teaching one thing, and then tearing it down by teaching another: Your sins are forgiven, but they’re not forgiven. Christ expiated sins once for all, but you must expiate them in Purgatory. Christ saved you, but you are still being saved and yet will be saved. No man is justified by works but works participate in, even solidify, your justification. It’s a constant theological exercies of building up and tearing down.James 1:17 “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.”
2 Cor 1:18 “But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no.”
2 Cor. 1:19 “For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us–by me and Silvanus and Timothy–was not yes and no, but is yes in Him.”
2 Cor. 1:20 “For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.” Maria, if you truly understood that you have been cleansed of all sins through the blood of Christ, then the inconsistency and fatuity of the extrabiblical doctrine of Purgatory would be evident to you.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
That’s fairly ignorant apophasis.
Maria has actually explained things very rationally-- and I don’t think you have any right to call her irrational.
If your expectations of purgatory don’t match our explanations of purgatory, then perhaps it is you who has some misunderstandings about purgatory-- not us.
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