Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[Sixtus]

Is interesting that Islam and Catholic Church are BOTH in FULL AGREEMENT about the concept of Purgatory

 

[Sixtus]

Christ’s death was sufficient to clean up the spilt orange juice, not just forgive us for it so again, why purgatory - it doesn’t make sense…

Purgatory is perhaps the most misunderstood concept by Protestants. It is nothing to do with Christ’s atonement for our sins. Of course His sacrifice was suffient. The bible says it was MORE THAN ENOUGH!

Purgatory isn’t about 'forgiving what Christ failed to achieve, it is about His sacrifice winning for us, the opportunity to attain that state of Holiness which we do not have on this earth, for the bible also records that God cannot ‘look upon evil’. He is so good that we need to prepare before entering into the Heavenly banquet

Purgatory is our chance to achieve personal perfection that we cannot achieve on this earth. Largely because we have no concept of how damaged we really are by sins. The sin is forgiven and the price of sin is paid for, but we are still damaged by sin. That needs rectifying before we can enter heaven

 

[flameburns623]

It is comments such as this:
MrExNihilo:

. . . . just as in life, the forgiveness of their sins has not been completed unless all sin has been removed from the soul of the sinner.

which seem to give the lie to comments such as this:

Sixtus:

Purgatory is perhaps the most misunderstood concept by Protestants. It is nothing to do with Christ’s atonement for our sins. Of course His sacrifice was sufficient. The bible says it was MORE THAN ENOUGH!

It really is not possible for Catholics to explain purgatory as a place of suffering or expiation without in some way accounting Christ’s death as somehow incomplete, imperfect, unable of itself to fully pay the debt of sinners ‘teletestai’–‘paid in full’, complete, lacking nothing.

Either Christ’s atonement on the Cross was sufficient to expiate for sin in all of it’s effects, consequences, and ramifications, or else it was not. Either we go to Heaven in some sense or manner because of our our human merit, because of what WE have done to earn Heaven; or else we go to Heaven because of what Christ has done. Catholics (at least those influenced by Molinism) like to confuse the issue, it seems to me, to muddy the waters, to have things both ways: it is BOTH ‘all of Christ’ and it is also in some way due to our own merit, our own suffering, our own expiation on behalf of our own sinfulness.

As I explained in earlier posts, the Christian understanding of this whole argument is that sin is not ‘removed from the soul of the sinner’. It is covered by the Blood of Christ. In the Christian view, Christ’s atonement is full and complete and needs no additional merit to be added to it in this life, by prayers, devotions, Bible reading, or good works. Such things are commendable of course: they represent evidence of the changed life of an individual, and without such evidences, any claim to be one of the Elect is simply presumption. But from God’s view, even the bestest and greatest of good deeds is as repugnant as the worstest and most-atrocious of wicked deeds: ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY RAGS. All of it. Without exception. We are saved, sanctified, and exalted not because of our own works nor because of our own merits but because of Christ’s.

It is true that we retain a carnal attachment to sin, even the best of us. Christianity rejects the false view of the perfectibility of the human soul. In Christ our carnal nature was slain with Him on the Cross, but though he is dead, that carnal nature yet remains with out throughout our mortal lives. The carnal man–called in one place by Paul the ‘man of death’–remains chained to us as if we were chained to a rotting corpse. That rottenness is eating away at each of us, killing us each and every one, imposing upon each of us the wages of sin we have so duly and truly earned. It will go with us to our graves and there be buried. Our spirits–the spirits of the Redeemed of the Lord–will be raised, not by our power nor because of our merits but because of the merits of Christ which purchased those spirits as a people for Himself. We who are of the Elect will stand before our Lord and plead not our own merits, not our own virtue, not our own suffering, but the suffering, the merits of Jesus Christ on our behalf. If we are found clothed in the robes of His righteousness we will be counted among His sheep.

This is why Christians do not find the doctrine of purgatory useful nor needful.

 

[AlegreFe]

AlegreFe:

But if we go to confession and confess our sins, God forgives us for those sins. But we still have to do penance for them, which means to repent; same difference.

But isn’t that what’s going on in purgatory?

Yes. That’s exactly what I’m saying. I do NOT disagree with you. I DO believe in Purgatory. BUT you and I disagree on when God forgives us our sins. I say that God forgives us right away after we confess our sins. And you say that God doesn’t forgive until AFTER we pay the penance. If we die in God’s grace, most of us will still have to pay the temporal punishment, which happens in Purgatory. If we die in God’s Grace that means that God has forgiven us our sins. If God does NOT forgive our sins then we go to Hell. You see what I’m saying? BUT just because God forgives our sins does not mean that we have paid our temporal punishment. That is taken care of in Purgatory; if we fully haven’t taken care of that on earth while we still live.

For example, someone may repent in an improper way, repenting more out of fear than love. So, in this sense, one who has imperfectly repented out of fear may be purged in purgatory as their repentance is transformed into one of love rather than one of fear. In this sense, this fearful contrition is transformed into holy love.

No matter how we “repent” in the confessional, we are still forgiven. If we make an imperfect Act of Contrition (out of fear of hell) but we do it in the Sacrament of Confession we are completely forgiven. If we make a perfect Act of Contrition outside the Sacrament of Confession we are completely forgiven. But in both of those situations we still have to pay the temporal punishment due to sin. But how many of us are completely one hundred percent certain that we are making a PERFECT Act of Contrition. I would rather go to Confession and make what I believe is a Perfect Act of Contrition and make ABSOLUTELY sure that I am completely forgiven. With that, I still know that I have to do penance for my sins. So with God’s Grace I do my penance here on earth so that my stay in Purgatory is shortened as much as God’s Grace and Mercy allows it.

But the ‘process’ of being forgiven began before the person died. And since the person perished before forgiveness could be manifested completely, the Lord completes the process after death in purgatory.

:nope:
God forgives us our sins completely. But what is NOT complete is the temporal punishment due to sin… or the “self-love” that we have.

Cont…

 

[AlegreFe]

It seems the argument you’re using is actually kind of an inversed argument similar to the protestant’s objection to purgatory. In other words, most protestants seem to object to purgatory for the exact same reason you’re saying: since forgiveness has already been pronounced, then why go through the suffering of purgatory.

Oh my goodness… I think you are totally misunderstanding what I’m saying here. Please do NOT compare me to the Protestant belief or unbelief. I am a Catholic Christian. I do NOT object Purgatory.

Please if you want to reply to my posts, it’s fine. BUT please make sure you read my whole post before replying. It would help to read it more than once.

The answer in my opinion is simple: because, just as in life, the forgiveness of their sins has not been completed unless all sin has been removed from the soul of the sinner. What has started of as contrition before death will be transformed into joy after death.

Forgiveness of sin IS completed. When I receive Jesus in Holy Communion AFTER going to Confession, I am in a COMPLETE State of GRACE. ALL Sin is WIPED CLEAN from my SOUL. The only thing that is left is the temporal punishment, the Penance that I have to suffer. WHY? Because I am a member of the Body of Christ. And since Christ’s Body suffered, then I, as a member of His Body, also have to suffer for the sake of His Body the Church. But you have to remember that God has completely forgiven me. Jesus told the Apostles, “whose sins you forgive are forgiven… whose sins you retain are retained.” It is NOT the process of Forgiveness that is taking place in Purgatory. It is the process of purging all of our “self-love” and the paying of our temporal punishment due to sin.

 

[AlegreFe]

The defence i always hear for Purgatory is the one about the spilt orange juice (see www.catholic.com) but my understanding has always been (even when Catholic) that Christ’s death was sufficient to clean up the spilt orange juice, not just forgive us for it so again, why purgatory - it doesn’t make sense…

I like the one about the broken window myself.

I feel so bad about Catholics who no longer believe. I will pray for you.

Please read my previous posts and the other posts here too. If you want ask an Apologist on this website and hopefully they will shed some more light so that you can better understand. Please give the Catholic Faith a chance before you let any Protestant talk you out of believing in the Faith in which you grew up.

 

[flameburns623]

AlegraFe:

Forgiveness of sin IS completed. When I receive Jesus in Holy Communion AFTER going to Confession, I am in a COMPLETE State of GRACE. ALL Sin is WIPED CLEAN from my SOUL.

Apparently not since you follow-up your assertion of ‘complete forgiveness’ with the following:

The only thing that is left is the temporal punishment, the Penance that I have to suffer.

Then you were not ‘completely forgiven’. You were imperfectly forgiven. You are being made to help atone for your own wrongdoing. Which you cannot do.

Because I am a member of the Body of Christ. And since Christ’s Body suffered, then I, as a member of His Body, also have to suffer for the sake of His Body the Church.

Why? Was Christ’s suffering incomplete? Imperfect? Unsatisfactory? Why do you require a share in His suffering in order to be admitted to full fellowship with Him? Understand that I do not question but that Christians WILL suffer. The issue for Protestants is “why” we suffer and what ‘good’ it brings us. The Christian answer is that it brings NO good to us nor to anyone but is simply the natural consequence of being damnable sinners in a lost and damned world. The consequence of being chained to that ‘body of death’ which is killing us as it rots away at our side.

Sorry to be argumentative but I simply cannot help but feel that we are talking past one another continually on this issue. It would be nice to hammer some of the loose ends down a little better.

 

[jmcrae]

Why? Was Christ’s suffering incomplete? Imperfect? Unsatisfactory? Why do you require a share in His suffering in order to be admitted to full fellowship with Him?

Because we are to be imitators of Him.

In order to become perfect images of Him, such that when God the Father looks at us, He will see His beloved Son, we must come to think as He (the Son) thinks, suffer as He suffers, and do as He does.

 

[rbarcia]

Forgiveness of sin IS completed. When I receive Jesus in Holy Communion AFTER going to Confession, I am in a COMPLETE State of GRACE. ALL Sin is WIPED CLEAN from my SOUL. The only thing that is left is the temporal punishment, the Penance that I have to suffer. WHY? Because I am a member of the Body of Christ. And since Christ’s Body suffered, then I, as a member of His Body, also have to suffer for the sake of His Body the Church. But you have to remember that God has completely forgiven me. Jesus told the Apostles, “whose sins you forgive are forgiven… whose sins you retain are retained.” It is NOT the process of Forgiveness that is taking place in Purgatory. It is the process of purging all of our “self-love” and the paying of our temporal punishment due to sin.

**

Hebrews 10

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

**

There is no more sacrifice after Christ. Why would they go out of their way to contrast a single sacrifice to daily ones, just to replace it with another daily offering? It does not match scripture.

**

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

**

 

[flameburns623]

Because we are to be imitators of Him.

In order to become perfect images of Him, such that when God the Father looks at us, He will see His beloved Son, we must come to think as He (the Son) thinks, suffer as He suffers, and do as He does.

We are to be imitators of Christ. We are NOT expected to become ‘images of Christ’, perfect or otherwise. We bear the image of Christ by dint of the fact that we are covered over with His Blood. We are not ‘made perfect’, but our imperfections are covered by the imputed perfections of Christ on our behalf. Again it seems to me as if Catholics are resolutely determined to smuggle in the idea that human beings in some way save themselves rather than salvation being entirely of Christ. It puzzles me that this doesn’t leap out at you as the obvious distinction between Catholic and Christian doctrine: you, like the Pelagians and the Mormons are ‘saved by grace, after all we can do’. Christians, trusting in the testimony of Scripture alone, are saved by Christ alone, through grace alone, by faith alone, to the glory of God alone.

Again, despite my argumentative tone, I really am struggling to grasp how you understand this subject.

 

[AlegreFe]

It really is not possible for Catholics to explain purgatory as a place of suffering or expiation without in some way accounting Christ’s death as somehow incomplete, imperfect, unable of itself to fully pay the debt of sinners ‘teletestai’–‘paid in full’, complete, lacking nothing.

Paul explains very clearly here;

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,
and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in
the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body,
which is the church Col 1:24

Now I’m not saying that MY merits will get me into Heaven. No way can that ever happen. It is through the merits of Jesus Christ that I will enter into Heaven. GRACE ALONE will get me into Heaven. But how do I get that GRACE? Through FAITH. And how do I show that Faith? Through my WORKS, which comes from the Grace of God. God has already set aside WORKS for each of us. It’s in the Bible.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and
this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for
the good works that God has prepared
in advance, that we should live in them. Eph 2:8-10

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has
faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no
food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm,
and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the
body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works,
is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have
works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will
demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the
demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that
faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he
offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works,
and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham
believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”
and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and
not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also
justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and
sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also
faith without works is dead. Jas 2:14-26

As I explained in earlier posts, the Christian understanding of this whole argument is that sin is not ‘removed from the soul of the sinner’. It is covered by the Blood of Christ.

When I confess my sins in the Sacrament of Confession and then I receive the Body & Blood of Jesus in the Sacrament of Holy Communion ALL stain of sin is wiped clean from my soul. No “covering up” is going on there. I do not want to be ONLY COVERED up. It’s like going to a special party/occasion all stinky and dirty but I have clean clothes on top of the stink. YUK. The thought of me entering into Heaven NOT cleaned up from the INSIDE out repulses me. It’s not even possible for that to happen. Nothing UNCLEAN can enter into Heaven.

This “belief” of sins being “covered” is hogwash. Jesus does not “cover” my sins but wipes them clean from my soul with the water and blood that was shed from his side on the cross.

 

[AlegreFe]

My sins are “wiped away” and not just “covered up.”

19 Repent, therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be wiped away Acts 3:19

We are to be imitators of Christ. We are NOT expected to become ‘images of Christ’, perfect or otherwise.

2 Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter
various trials,
3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces
perseverance.
4 And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may
be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. Jas 1:2-4

Jesus Himself told us to “be perfect” just as His Father in Heaven is perfect. He told us that when He explained how we are to love our enemies.

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for
those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father,
for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and
causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense
will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual
about that? Do not the pagans do the same?
48 So be perfect,
just as your heavenly Father is perfect. Mat 5:44-48

Paul also tells us;

28 It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and
teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present
everyone perfect in Christ.
29 For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the
exercise of his power working within me. Col 1:28-29

Paul “labors” and “struggles” for his perfection. Hmm, that sounds like WORKS to me.

12 Epaphras sends you greetings; he is one of you, a slave
of Christ (Jesus), always striving for you in his prayers
so that you may be perfect and fully assured in
all the will of God. Col 4:12

Again, despite my argumentative tone, I really am struggling to grasp how you understand this subject.

Don’t worry. I will be as patient as I could be with God’s help of course.
Just open up your heart and your mind and pray to the Holy Spirit.
I will pray for you too.

Come Holy Spirit prayer

 

[AlegreFe]

There is no more sacrifice after Christ. Why would they go out of their way to contrast a single sacrifice to daily ones, just to replace it with another daily offering?

I think you would agree that we are all incorporated into the Priesthood of Christ right? Tell me, for what are you incorporated into the priesthood of Christ?

I believe that my role in the Priesthood of Christ allows me to offer up sacrifices. That is part of the penance that I show for my sins. My sacrifices will NEVER replace the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for me, NEVER. But if you look back on my previous posts you will see a scripture passage that states that we are to “rejoice in our sufferings” to make up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ. NOTHING is lacking in Christ’s sufferings as far as getting me into heaven. His sacrifice will get me into Heaven but only if I stay in the State of Grace of my own Free Will. But that can only happen with the Grace of God. We are all part of the Body of Christ right? Then it only makes sense that the “Body of Christ” also suffer. WE are the Body of Christ here on earth, so we too have to suffer and offer up our own sacrifices.

If you scroll back in this thread and read some previous posts of mine and of other Catholics here, hopefully you will at least, start to understand what we mean by “offering up” and what we mean by Purgatory.

 

[jim1130]

The defence i always hear for Purgatory is the one about the spilt orange juice (see www.catholic.com) but my understanding has always been (even when Catholic) that Christ’s death was sufficient to clean up the spilt orange juice, not just forgive us for it so again, why purgatory - it doesn’t make sense…

So, you are perfect, as clean as the driven snow? Must be nice.

 

[rbarcia]

I think you would agree that we are all incorporated into the Priesthood of Christ right? Tell me, for what are you incorporated into the priesthood of Christ?

Preach the gospel as the Bible says.

I believe that my role in the Priesthood of Christ allows me to offer up sacrifices.

Nobody gave you this role, you gave it to yourself

That is part of the penance that I show for my sins. My sacrifices will NEVER replace the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for me, NEVER. But if you look back on my previous posts you will see a scripture passage that states that we are to “rejoice in our sufferings” to make up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ.

There is nothing Christ lacks.

NOTHING is lacking in Christ’s sufferings as far as getting me into heaven.

Christ’s suffering lacks nothing at all for getting into heaven. Nor does it lack anything for anything else.

His sacrifice will get me into Heaven but only if I stay in the State of Grace of my own Free Will. But that can only happen with the Grace of God.

You can only stay in grace, by grace? That is like saying I can only stay in a state of drinking water while I am drinking water.

We are all part of the Body of Christ right? Then it only makes sense that the “Body of Christ” also suffer. WE are the Body of Christ here on earth, so we too have to suffer and offer up our own sacrifices.

This does not make sense to me, Christ is no longer suffering, the sacrificed is finished. Persecution and suffering may be required of you by God, but not for getting into heaven, but for spreading th gospel of Christ.

If you scroll back in this thread and read some previous posts of mine and of other Catholics here, hopefully you will at least, start to understand what we mean by “offering up” and what we mean by Purgatory.

I know what you mean, it does not mean its true because you have defined it. I know what it means to steal for example, knowing the meaning does not make it right.

 

[jim1130]

"AlegreFe:

If you scroll back in this thread and read some previous posts of mine and of other Catholics here, hopefully you will at least, start to understand what we mean by “offering up” and what we mean by Purgatory.

I know what you mean, it does not mean its true because you have defined it. I know what it means to steal for example, knowing the meaning does not make it right.

Purgatory is consistent with God’s love and allows those of us not perfect by death to be purified before entering Heaven since sin cannot be in the presence of God. Are you saying that upon your death you are 100% pure of sin?

 

[MariaG]

It really is not possible for Catholics to explain purgatory as a place of suffering or expiation without in some way accounting Christ’s death as somehow incomplete, imperfect, unable of itself to fully pay the debt of sinners ‘teletestai’–‘paid in full’, complete, lacking nothing.

Either Christ’s atonement on the Cross was sufficient to expiate for sin in all of it’s effects, consequences, and ramifications, or else it was not. Either we go to Heaven in some sense or manner because of our our human merit, because of what WE have done to earn Heaven; or else we go to Heaven because of what Christ has done. Catholics (at least those influenced by Molinism) like to confuse the issue, it seems to me, to muddy the waters, to have things both ways: it is BOTH ‘all of Christ’ and it is also in some way due to our own merit, our own suffering, our own expiation on behalf of our own sinfulness.

As I explained in earlier posts, the Christian understanding of this whole argument is that sin is not ‘removed from the soul of the sinner’. It is covered by the Blood of Christ. In the Christian view, Christ’s atonement is full and complete and needs no additional merit to be added to it in this life, by prayers, devotions, Bible reading, or good works. Such things are commendable of course: they represent evidence of the changed life of an individual, and without such evidences, any claim to be one of the Elect is simply presumption. But from God’s view, even the bestest and greatest of good deeds is as repugnant as the worstest and most-atrocious of wicked deeds: ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY RAGS. All of it. Without exception. We are saved, sanctified, and exalted not because of our own works nor because of our own merits but because of Christ’s.

It is true that we retain a carnal attachment to sin, even the best of us. Christianity rejects the false view of the perfectibility of the human soul. In Christ our carnal nature was slain with Him on the Cross, but though he is dead, that carnal nature yet remains with out throughout our mortal lives. The carnal man–called in one place by Paul the ‘man of death’–remains chained to us as if we were chained to a rotting corpse. That rottenness is eating away at each of us, killing us each and every one, imposing upon each of us the wages of sin we have so duly and truly earned. It will go with us to our graves and there be buried. Our spirits–the spirits of the Redeemed of the Lord–will be raised, not by our power nor because of our merits but because of the merits of Christ which purchased those spirits as a people for Himself. We who are of the Elect will stand before our Lord and plead not our own merits, not our own virtue, not our own suffering, but the suffering, the merits of Jesus Christ on our behalf. If we are found clothed in the robes of His righteousness we will be counted among His sheep.

This is why Christians do not find the doctrine of purgatory useful nor needful.

In the Christian view? Christianity rejects? Are you saying Catholics are not Christians? Maybe you would like to clarify that by stating a denomination since your statements are excluding Catholics from being defined as Christian? Maybe you did not mean this, but you repeated it several times so I would ask for you to clarify your statements as to what “Christians” you are referring to. All which would of course exclude Catholics as well as many other denominations as being defined as Christians? Or just your particular church or denomination believes this?

There are in fact still some obvious misunderstandings about what you think purgatory is but I would like for you to clarify your statements about what Christianity rejects and the implications that has for your view of the Christianity of the Catholic Church.
God Bless,
Maria

 

[jim1130]

flameburns:

It really is not possible for Catholics to explain purgatory as a place of suffering or expiation without in some way accounting Christ’s death as somehow incomplete, imperfect, unable of itself to fully pay the debt of sinners ‘teletestai’–‘paid in full’, complete, lacking nothing.

Either Christ’s atonement on the Cross was sufficient to expiate for sin in all of it’s effects, consequences, and ramifications, or else it was not. Either we go to Heaven in some sense or manner because of our our human merit, because of what WE have done to earn Heaven; or else we go to Heaven because of what Christ has done. Catholics (at least those influenced by Molinism) like to confuse the issue, it seems to me, to muddy the waters, to have things both ways: it is BOTH ‘all of Christ’ and it is also in some way due to our own merit, our own suffering, our own expiation on behalf of our own sinfulness.

As I explained in earlier posts, the Christian understanding of this whole argument is that sin is not ‘removed from the soul of the sinner’. It is covered by the Blood of Christ. In the Christian view, Christ’s atonement is full and complete and needs no additional merit to be added to it in this life, by prayers, devotions, Bible reading, or good works. Such things are commendable of course: they represent evidence of the changed life of an individual, and without such evidences, any claim to be one of the Elect is simply presumption. But from God’s view, even the bestest and greatest of good deeds is as repugnant as the worstest and most-atrocious of wicked deeds: ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS IS AS FILTHY RAGS. All of it. Without exception. We are saved, sanctified, and exalted not because of our own works nor because of our own merits but because of Christ’s.

It is true that we retain a carnal attachment to sin, even the best of us. Christianity rejects the false view of the perfectibility of the human soul. In Christ our carnal nature was slain with Him on the Cross, but though he is dead, that carnal nature yet remains with out throughout our mortal lives. The carnal man–called in one place by Paul the ‘man of death’–remains chained to us as if we were chained to a rotting corpse. That rottenness is eating away at each of us, killing us each and every one, imposing upon each of us the wages of sin we have so duly and truly earned. It will go with us to our graves and there be buried. Our spirits–the spirits of the Redeemed of the Lord–will be raised, not by our power nor because of our merits but because of the merits of Christ which purchased those spirits as a people for Himself. We who are of the Elect will stand before our Lord and plead not our own merits, not our own virtue, not our own suffering, but the suffering, the merits of Jesus Christ on our behalf. If we are found clothed in the robes of His righteousness we will be counted among His sheep.

This is why Christians do not find the doctrine of purgatory useful nor needful.

In the Christian view? Christianity rejects? Are you saying Catholics are not Christians? Maybe you would like to clarify that by stating a denomination since your statements are excluding Catholics from being defined as Christian? Maybe you did not mean this, but you repeated it several times so I would ask for you to clarify your statements as to what “Christians” you are referring to. All which would of course exclude Catholics as well as many other denominations as being defined as Christians? Or just your particular church or denomination believes this?

There are in fact still some obvious misunderstandings about what you think purgatory is but I would like for you to clarify your statements about what Christianity rejects and the implications that has for your view of the Christianity of the Catholic Church.
God Bless,
Maria

For flameburns, is this all another pitch for “faith is all you need”?

Christ’s death was complete, but that does not excuse us of our individual accountability.

I guess the “cloak of righteousness” says to me that we are never truly purified of sin; that the “cloak” merely covers or hides our true unworthiness (as if this “disguise” fools God). Does this mean that we sneak into heaven under the disguise of righteousness?

Baptism washes away our original sin, but, given our free will, not our inclination to sin.

Yes we retain a “carnal” knowledge to sin, which means that when we die we die in a state of sin. Since sin cannot enter Heaven then what is the option? Send the faithful to Hell? Is not a purifying process, i.e. purgatory, the act of a loving God?

 

[valient_Lucy]

Why do Protestants object to Pergatory when it is a Biblical concept. It was also believed by the Jews of Jesus day.In that snese belief in Purgatory was not created by the CC but inherited from it’s earliest roots of Judaism. There is no evidence that the Lord refuted this teaching. So why do Protestants not accept it?

I think there’s a sense that Purgatory either serves as a second chance for people who to go to heaven, or that it implies that Christ’s redemption on the cross wasn’t enough to cleanse us from sins. I think they feel that it subtracts from that. At least, that’s the sense I get from Protestant family members and others.

 

[valient_Lucy]

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There is no more sacrifice after Christ. Why would they go out of their way to contrast a single sacrifice to daily ones, just to replace it with another daily offering? It does not match scripture.

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The Sacrifice of the Mass is THE SINGLE sacrifice. It is the Sacrifice of Calvary. It is not a a sacrifice that is repeated every day.