Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[hoosierdaddy]

That event continues to this day.

No it doesn’t. Jesus died one time, once for all. Sins are washed away by the Blood. Not by fire. And there is no such thing as purgatory.

Signed,
the Bible.

didn’t even have to read all ten pages of this thread

 

[hoosierdaddy]

“If your expectations of purgatory don’t match our explanations of purgatory, then perhaps it is you who has some misunderstandings about purgatory-- not us.”

False dichotomy. Another option would be that maybe you don’t understand Scripture. Cuz purgatory ain’t in there…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

True Judaism was never based on men’s traditions or personal beliefs (Christ Himself rebuked them).

Well, if you’re going to play that game, then I’ll just come out and state that the belief that there is no purgatory is actually based on men’s traditions or personal beliefs-- the very things that Christ himself, true God and true man, rebuked.

apophasis:

Where in the Tanach is Purgatory ever actually taught???

Well, if you’re refering to the three parts, Torah תורה‎ meaning “Instruction”, Nevi’im נביאים‎ meaning “Prophets”, and Ketuvim כתובים‎ meaning “Writings”, then I would direct your attention to Zechariah 13:9, Isaiah 66:15-16, and Malachi 3:2-3– just as I already pointed out to you.

There’s also Wisdom 3:1-7 & II Maccabees 12:43-45 to consider as well.

These works were collected with the canon of Jewish Scriptures in 250 B.C., as an effort to translate all Jewish Scripture into the Greek language. Interestingly, nearly two-fifths of the population in Egypt alone, especially in Alexandria, were Jewish yet unable to read and write in Hebrew. They were known as Hellenistic Jews.

During this time, seven of the 46 books were never originally written in the Hebrew language-- but were regarded as inspired books nonetheless. Baruch, I & II Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Ecclesiasticus (aka Sirach), and Wisdom were all known and used by Jews-- even in the Holy Land, including Jesus and his disciples. The early Christians likewise accepted the inspired status of the seven books, because no one had questioned their divine inspiration until the time of Jerome if I recall correctly. And even in Jerome’s case, he didn’t actually doubt them and actually translated them as per the pope’s directives.

apophasis:

True Christianity is also based on Divine Revelation, never on the personal beliefs of mere men - even religious authorities.

Exactly. And Catholicism is True Christianity.

The belief in purgatory is a divine revelation from God. Those who have rejected the teaching of purgatory are following their own personal beliefs-- usually focussed within the religious authorities of traditional protestant theologies, which assume they know God’s word better than God himself.

apophasis:

Jesus never taught Purgatory…

Well, since all I’m reading is more empty assertions, I guess I’ll just reply, “Yes. He did.”

apophasis:

…nor did any of the N.T. writers inspired by the Holy Spirit…

This has been covered above already.

apophasis:

…whose focus on the removal of a man’s sins in the N.T. Scriptures is always rooted the sacrificial blood of Christ.

Right. And purgatory is a process by which God cleanses us of our sins through the sacrificial blood of Christ.

apophasis:

…Fire is NEVER presented as a final means of cleansing of any sins…

Hebrews 12:29 says that our God is a consuming fire.

apophasis:

…Again, Purgatory was not taught by the Apostles or by men directly after the Apostolic age…

This just a repeat of more empty assertions without anything of substance to substantiate your claim except the empty claim that you understand the Scriptures better than we do – and this has already been covered above.

apophasis:

…It did, howeve, creep in the back door and become an accepted doctrine in the Latin church, but based strictly on human reasoning, not on any Divine Revelation. It was jettisoned by the Reformers for that specific reason…

sigh

No. Actually, this was the time where the protestants actually rejected the divine revelation of God in order to follow their own personal beliefs and invent their own unscriptural traditions.

As I already noted before, even though all these different faiths and denominations have different views concerning the individual judgement at death of each person, nonetheless Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox have always agreed with each other that there is a kind of final purification for those who need it.

More to the point, it was not until the protestant reformers came in the 1500s that any Christians denied the idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.

So unless you can actually present something of substance which refutes what’s been presented – aside from your claims that you apparently understand the Scriptures better than us – please don’t waste my time. As a former Lutheran, believe me, I’ve heard this all before.

Happy New Year, by the way.

 

[Montalban]

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
…
God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
(emphasis added)

1494 The confessor proposes the performance of certain acts of “satisfaction” or “penance” to be performed by the penitent in order to
repair the harm caused by sin and to re-establish habits befitting a disciple of Christ.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1494.htm

MariaG:

No, Catholics just take scripture very seriously and believe that nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

Which is why limbo was invented.

But anyway, you suppose that God can’t just pass judgment until He’s been satisfied.

MariaG:

Purgatory has nothing to do with “giving God satisfaction for sinning” since we do nothing in purgatory and God does it all.

Of course it does. You can pray for the people in purgatory. And Saints can lend out their merit to you to pass through quicker.
1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1475.htm

“…and that the living aid the dead by their prayers and works of satisfaction is clear from the tradition above alleged.”
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

And you can do so yourself. It’s not entirely passive!

1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1498.htm

MariaG:

I truly suggest you actually read the article below since you clearly do not have an understanding of what the teaching of purgatory is unless you wish to hold onto your caricature of understanding and continue to mock something that the Church never taught.

The Biblical Doctrine of Purgatory by Patrick Madrid from Envoy Magazine

I’d rather read the catechism. It seems to be more informative

MariaG:

Or, to put it a different way, in purgatory, the soul remains passive as the saving blood of Jesus Christ washes away the impurities and temporal effects due to sin from the soul.

This must be the first time man takes no part in a part of his own salvation. He just sits there being punished.

MariaG:

Purgatory is all about the blood. The saving blood of Jesus Christ and how through His saving blood, God cleanses our soul.

Which is about God still being unsatisfied. The never changing God changes in RC belief.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Not fully paying the satisfaction means God has not fully cleansed them yet. From the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you. As in life, so in death.

God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
(emphasis added)

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with God requiring satisfaction or punishing sin for that matter. There’s nothing unscriptural about the part you emphasized.

Likewise, doing penance is yet another manifestation of God’s grace. From the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

1494 The confessor proposes the performance of certain acts of “satisfaction” or “penance” to be performed by the penitent in order to repair the harm caused by sin and to re-establish habits befitting a disciple of Christ.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1494.htm

Right. And unless you understand that, from the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you, you are not going to understand what’s being said here.

Unless you understand that grace is is God’s life within you, you’re going to read this as if we Catholics think we can earn our way into heaven-- and that not what Catholicism is teaching.

Again, from the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

This is what we mean when we say grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. Take a look at this post here for a quick but detailed analysis of what we mean. This here is another one which really goes into detail as to how God manifests his grace (God’s life within us) within us.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Continued

Montalban:

Which is why limbo was invented.

No. This is why protestants don’t accept the divine revelation of purgatory.

They think that they are completely redeemed in one moment and totally ignore the fact that they continue to sin after they’ve been forgiven. They totally ignore the fact that the effects of sin continue to affect us well after our sins have been forgiven too. They totally ignore the fact that while the life, death and resurrection of Jesus occured at a finite point in time and space, that the effects of sacrifice extends all throughout human history.

When Adam sinned long ago, he was forgiven by the shed blood of Christ. When Peter sinned during the time of Christ, he was forgiven by the shed blood of Christ. When someone in the future that we do not know yet someday sins, if they are forgiven, then they have been forgiven by the shed blood of Christ.

Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

Montalban:

But anyway, you suppose that God can’t just pass judgment until He’s been satisfied.

We don’t ‘suppose’ anything. It’s a divine revelation that God will not allow any unclean thing into his presence. Therefore, as in life, so too in death, God does the work of cleansing us by the blood of Christ.

Again, from the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

Montalban:

Of course it does. You can pray for the people in purgatory. And Saints can lend out their merit to you to pass through quicker.

Praying for the saints is likewise a grace from God. In other words, we’re not doing this of our own human effort. Christ is doing this through us by the Holy Spirit as well.

Montalban:

1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1475.htm

Yes. Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

"…and that the living aid the dead by their prayers and works of satisfaction is clear from the tradition above alleged."
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Since you keep repeating the same errors concerning your misperceptions of Catholicism, I’m going to keep repeating this same simple point until you understand what we mean.

Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

Montalban:

And you can do so yourself. It’s not entirely passive!

no.

Grace is God’s life within you…

Montalban:

1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1498.htm

no.

Grace is God’s life within you…

Montalban:

I’d rather read the catechism. It seems to be more informative

You can read anything from the catechsim that you want to read. If you don’t understand that grace is God’s life within you, then you will not understand anything that we’re trying to explain to you. You will always misinterpret what we’re saying as Catholics thinking that we can earn our way into heaven.

Montalban:

This must be the first time man takes no part in a part of his own salvation. He just sits there being punished.

no.

Grace is God’s life within you…

Montalban:

Which is about God still being unsatisfied. The never changing God changes in RC belief.

And like protestant doctrines, even within the same exact denominations, haven’t changed over time?

I think you’re making a fairly hypocritical claim right now.

In case this hasn’t come through clearly, I will say this once again…

Grace is
God’s Life
Within You

 

[MariaG]

That’s the WHOLE problem, my friend. It hasn’t been pointed out or its existence proved by Scripture. One has yet to prove BY SCRIPTURE that sins are cleansed by fire.

No one has claimed that scripture says our sins are cleansed by fire except you. Nowhere does the teaching of purgatory deny that we are cleansed from our sins through Christ’s blood. The saving grace of Christ’s blood is applied, and we are purged from our sins and the effects of our sins. This is the definition of purgatory.

Our sins are cleansed through the redeeming blood of Christ AS IF through fire, as per scripture.

The teaching of purgatory is the definition of how Christ’s blood cleanses us. It’s Christ’s blood that cleanses us. Purgatory describes how it will happen.

God Bless,
Maria

Have you read my posts??? In NONE of them do I claim Scripture says our sins are cleansed by fire.

Poorly worded on my part.

My point is that Catholic Christians are not claiming that fire cleanses the blood. Catholic Christians are saying that Christ blood cleanses, and this cleansing happens through a process called purgatory.

You keep arguing against a point that the Catholic Church does not teach, asking us to provide scripture for something that we do not teach, demanding scripture about fire cleansing when the Catholic Church does not teach that the fire cleanses. You are arguing against something we do not teach. Can you not yet see this?

We are cleansed during a process named purgatory through the saving grace of His blood AS IF through fire. Even if someone specifically said that the fire cleanses instead of we are cleansed AS IF by fire, the only way the person could possibly mean the fire itself cleanses is because of the blood of Christ.

 

[MariaG]

Sure it does. Purgatory has to do with venial sins, Maria. Venial sins you cannot take into Heaven with you. If you die with these venial sins still attached to you, then obviously the blood of Christ never did cleanse you of them, hence they must be dealt with while in “Purgatory.” The place where you must expiate those sins and suffer the “temporal punishment” that’s required of them/you.

Once again, the “once for all” argument. Did you read the link to the article by Patrick Madrid?

Most Christians do not believe that once a person becomes a Christian they are never unable to sin again. We/they believe that justification is a process that does not end until death.

While you are certainly free to believe that the justification is instantaneous and complete the moment you gave your heart to Christ, this is a new interpretation not even shared by all the different Christian denominations since the reformation and certainly not an interpretation found before the reformation.

Can you be any more irrational, Maria?

Irrational? No.

I do thank the Holy Spirit though for the gift of the Spirit that allows me to see that the reason you are unable to see the truth of my words is that your doctrine of “once and for all” is too much at stake and if you ever get even a inclination that purgatory is all about the saving blood of Christ, your doctrine may just tumble down to the ground. You have too much invested in the Catholic Church being wrong to admit they could be right about anything apparently.

Purgatory is about fire, not blood. You’re trying so hard to be Protestant in your beliefs on this and yet still remain Catholic.

No. You are unable to admit you are wrong about what you think the Catholic teaching of purgatory is.

Purgatory is all about the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin as if through fire.

But I guess I am in good company of those who according to you are trying to be Protestant in my beliefs, Patrick Madrid being one.

But from my view, you are the one that is trying so desperately to “prove” that purgatory is not about the cleansing blood of Christ.

Actually the question is not how any teachings in Scripture contradict Catholic teachings, but how Catholic teachings (like Purgatory) contradict Scripture - the revealed, written Word of God.The “truth” is? On what Divine revelation are you basing this “truth” of yours? How is it YOU possess the defining word on this “in house” Catholic controversy? Were you given direct, divine revelation?RC’ism is notorious for teaching one thing, and then tearing it down by teaching another: Your sins are forgiven, but they’re not forgiven. Christ expiated sins once for all, but you must expiate them in Purgatory. Christ saved you, but you are still being saved and yet will be saved. No man is justified by works but works participate in, even solidify, your justification. It’s a constant theological exercies of building up and tearing down.James 1:17 "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."2 Cor 1:18 "But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no."2 Cor. 1:19 "For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us–by me and Silvanus and Timothy–was not yes and no, but is yes in Him."2 Cor. 1:20 “For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.” Maria, if you truly understood that you have been cleansed of all sins through the blood of Christ, then the inconsistency and fatuity of the extrabiblical doctrine of Purgatory would be evident to you

And if you could let go of your prejudice and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to all truth, the complete biblical nature of the saving grace of Christ’s cleansing blood named purgatory by the Catholic Church would evident to you.

Try reading the article by Patrick Madrid and try to understand the teaching of purgatory instead of choosing to hang onto your false belief that you know what the teaching of purgatory is.

Purgatory is all about the cleansing power of Christ’s blood

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed.), #1455 it is specifically said that those in purgatory are expiating (making amends for, satisfaction for) their sins. This expiation then is obviously the result of their enduring the suffering caused by this purgatorial “fire.” Of course the CCC then contradicts itself by saying Christ expiated our sins once for all. I have found when studying the CCC that whatever orthodox, grace teachings it does present based on divine revelation (God’s written Word), it then takes away through its extra-biblical traditions, such as its non-biblical doctrine of purgatory. What it builds up it then tears down.Scripture never speaks of sins as merely “wounding” men, but sin brought about death - both physical and spiritual, beginning with Adam, the father of the human race and the representative head of all his descendants. The guilt of his sin was placed to our account:…

For this reason too, even the unbiblical concept of men elevating other men (or women) to a special level of “sainthood” (canonized) has absolutely no leg to stand on. No man (Pope of Prelate) has the ability to know the motives of the heart.

Okay, when all else fails, jump topics.

Again, the difference between whether or not we have a wounded nature or are completely depraved. Once saved always saved or whether or not one must “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” as St. Paul taught.

I’ll stick with St. Paul:thumbsup:

But again, you try to argue that the Catholic Church denies the blood of Christ. You are agruing against a point the Catholic Church does not teach. We do not teach that the fire cleanses. We are cleanse AS IF through fire with the cleansing blood of Christ. We call this process purgatory.

Now if you would admit that this what the teaching of purgatory is, we could move onto a new thread about whether once one is saved and we are cleansed of all sin before we ever commit it or if we are cleansed and are continually washed in His blood as we walk in His Grace.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

This whole argument is moot since you must first prove there is even such a place as purgatory.

AGAIN,
The Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is a place. Most Catholics think of it as a place, but this is just because it is usually easier for our limited understanding when thought of in this manner.

The official teaching of the Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is a place. In fact, JPII said it should be thought of as more of a process, one that can even be instantaneous.

You are asking us to prove that purgatory is a place and the official teaching of the Catholic Church does not claim that purgatory is a place.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

That’s fairly ignorant apophasis.

Maria has actually explained things very rationally-- and I don’t think you have any right to call her irrational.

If your expectations of purgatory don’t match our explanations of purgatory, then perhaps it is you who has some misunderstandings about purgatory-- not us.

Yup. He just can’t admit that purgtory is all about the blood of Christ.

I always find it kind of sad when people are so caught up in their own self understanding they can not even hear what we are saying and admit they misunderstood a teaching of a church they do not belong to.

Like I said, why is it so hard to say, “Okay, you believe purgatory is a process in which the blood of Christ cleanses you of all sin, making you perfectly clean for heaven and this happens the moment you die. I believe this happens the moment we give our lives over to Christ and here is why I am right.”

We all agree that it is Christ’s blood that cleanses us. We just disagree on WHEN this happens. Why can’t he admit this?

 

[MariaG]

In case this hasn’t come through clearly, I will say this once again…

Grace is
God’s Life

Within You

Just in case Montalban didn’t hear your main point .

Nicely said:thumbsup:

 

[MariaG]

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
…
…
This must be the first time man takes no part in a part of his own salvation. He just sits there being punished.

Which is about God still being unsatisfied. The never changing God changes in RC belief.

Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

…
Again, from the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

Praying for the saints is likewise a grace from God. In other words, we’re not doing this of our own human effort. Christ is doing this through us by the Holy Spirit as well.

Yes. Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

Since you keep repeating the same errors concerning your misperceptions of Catholicism, I’m going to keep repeating this same simple point until you understand what we mean.

Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

no.

Grace is God’s life within you…

no.

Grace is God’s life within you…

Grace is God’s life within you…

In case this hasn’t come through clearly, I will say this once again…

Grace is
God’s Life

Within You

Just in case Montalban did not hear your point .

Nicely said and better than I could have done

God Bless,
Maria

 

[brkn1]

I looked up “purgatory” in the www.catholicscripture.com site.

There was a very interesting verse used to prove purgatory’s existence.
It was (Luke 16:19-31) where the question is asked: “…So where is the rich man?”, answered by: “He is in purgatory.”

According to my KJV bible in verse (Luke 16:23), Jesus described the rich man as being in HELL (HADES) and not purgatory, but I guess hell is now the same thing as purgatory according to some.

In (Mark 9:43-48) Jesus descibes hell as a place “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”

So purgatory is hell. It will take a while for me to grasp that new thought fully.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I looked up “purgatory” in the www.catholicscripture.com site.

There was a very interesting verse used to prove purgatory’s existence.
It was (Luke 16:19-31) where the question is asked: “…So where is the rich man?”, answered by: “He is in purgatory.”

According to my KJV bible in verse (Luke 16:23), Jesus described the rich man as being in HELL (HADES) and not purgatory, but I guess hell is now the same thing as purgatory according to some.

In (Mark 9:43-48) Jesus descibes hell as a place “Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.”

So purgatory is hell. It will take a while for me to grasp that new thought fully.

Hmmm…no. Purgatory is not hell.

By the way, when I clicked on the link and typed in ‘purgatory’ in the search field, I got only one link…

realtruth.org/articles/415-dpe.html

This is not a Catholic site as far as I can tell. And there are glaring errors about Catholicism recorded within this on-line article too.

Could you provide a direct link to the Catholic article you were refering too which claimed that purgatory is hell?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Yup. He just can’t admit that purgatory is all about the blood of Christ.

I always find it kind of sad when people are so caught up in their own self understanding they can not even hear what we are saying and admit they misunderstood a teaching of a church they do not belong to.

Me too. I know that when I was first investigating Catholicism, I had more than a few misconceptions regarding Catholic doctrines. But once I began to put aside my own assumptions about what I believed the church taught, then things started to make much more sense.

MariaG:

Like I said, why is it so hard to say:

Okay, you believe purgatory is a process in which the blood of Christ cleanses you of all sin, making you perfectly clean for heaven and this happens the moment you die.

I believe this happens the moment we give our lives over to Christ and here is why I am right.

It’s not a hard thing to do at all. Unfortunately many seem to be hell-bent determined to make sure that Catholic doctrines are presented in such a distorted way that they cannot possibly make sense to them.

MariaG:

We all agree that it is Christ’s blood that cleanses us. We just disagree on WHEN this happens. Why can’t he admit this?

Because he either really doesn’t understand this or else he really doesn’t want too understand this. I don’t really see any other options.

Seems fairly clear to you and I that purgatory is all about the blood of Christ. Purgatory is all about the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin as if through fire. Everything else, as far as I can tell, seems to be reduced to the indifference between God’s infinite perspective and man’s finite perspective.

We believe that the blood of Christ make us perfectly clean for heaven through purgatory the moment we die.

They believe that the blood of Christ make them perfectly clean for heaven through faith the moment they believe.

All else is commentary.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

“We believe that the blood of Christ make us perfectly clean for heaven through purgatory the moment we die.”

The book of Hebrews and Christ Himself would disagree with this blasphemy. You are counting the Blood of Christ as cheap. Which is it, fire or blood? It ain’t both.

“They believe that the blood of Christ make them perfectly clean for heaven through faith the moment they believe.”

The book of Hebrews and Christ Himself would testify to this truth.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Originally Posted by MariaG
We all agree that it is Christ’s blood that cleanses us. We just disagree on WHEN this happens. Why can’t he admit this?

My guess is because only one position is right and since this is a matter of life and death and eternity, neither of our sides wants to be swayed from what we believe is true.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**Grace is
God’s Life

Within You**

Is that a concept found in Scripture?

I believe grace is God’s unmerited favour.

 

[john_ennis]

**Originally Posted by MariaG **
We all agree that it is Christ’s blood that cleanses us. We just disagree on WHEN this happens. Why can’t he admit this?

My guess is because only one position is right and since this is a matter of life and death and eternity, neither of our sides wants to be swayed from what we believe is true.

Since it’s about life, death, and eternity, I *want *to be swayed, if what I believe isn’t true.

And, the only way I can be so predisposed, is to be like the Ethiopian with Philip and say, how can I understand if someone doesn’t explain it?

Then, I have to figure out which Someone (presumably the Ethiopian meant that there will always be an identifiable authority) has the authority to do so.

It would have to be a body visible and identifiable from the start, through today, without interruption.

If a certain someone comes along saying something no one said for the first fifteen centuries of Christianity (like that our behavior, prayers, sacrifices, and suffering have no effect on our own salvation), I’d keep on looking for the real authority.

Peace.
John