Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

“We believe that the blood of Christ make us perfectly clean for heaven through purgatory the moment we die.”

The book of Hebrews and Christ Himself would disagree with this blasphemy.

sigh

So much for friendly ecumenical dialogue between denominations.

All I’m reading are yet more empty assertions and slanders against the Catholic Church without any substance whatsover. And blasphemous assertions and slanders against her at that.

You are counting the Blood of Christ as cheap.

How exactly does Christ’s blood cleansing us in purgatory cheapen God’s grace?

There’s nothing cheap about the blood of Christ cleansing all people’s sins. Nothing cheap about this at all. God willingly gave his life on the cross for our sins. God died on the cross for you and me.

Which is it, fire or blood? It ain’t both.

It’s the grace of God hoosierdaddy. Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

“They believe that the blood of Christ make them perfectly clean for heaven through faith the moment they believe.”

The book of Hebrews and Christ Himself would testify to this truth.

The book of Hebrews and Christ Himself would disagree with this blasphemy.

See how easy it is to refute people when making these kinds of empty assertions?

I’ve never claimed you were blaspheming anything. And yet I’m repeatedly hearing claims that the Catholic Church somehow blashpemes God with the doctrine of purgatory.

If you’re going to make the same assertions over and over again, claming that the Catholic Church teaches blasphemy, at least make an effort back up what you’re claiming.

In fact, if you’re going to play that game then I might as well not mince words anymore.

Right now, in your own stubborn and obstinant heart, you are blaspheming God himself by rejecting the testimony of those who really know God better than you do-- and we have been placed here to reveal the truth to you via the Holy Spirit.

The simple truth is that I know God better than you do hoosierdaddy.

You Protestants worship what you do not know; we Catholics worship what we do know, for Christ lives in the Catholic Church.

In other words, you only know a partial truth, a partial truth which was originally fully revealed by the Catholic Church-- and your partial truth has been somewhat perverted and corrupted by the erroneous traditions of the humanistic aspects of the Renaissance period. More to the point, they seem to have entered a phase where they worship their printing presses even more than their own versions of the Bible they printed from them-- and yes, I do mean ‘worship’ their own version of the Bible.

As 2 Timothy 4:3 clearly states, the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

This isn’t talking about the beginning of the Church. This is talking about, just like sin progressively piling up prior to the Great Deluge, the increase of sin and lawlessness piling up prior to the end of days when the Church approaches the consumation.

In other words, this is talking about the rise of various contradictory protestantisms leading to inceasingly more heretical groups, leading to increasingly more apostate groups, leading the world increasingly closer to the dangers of hell as more and more of God’s grace (God’s life within you) is rejected in favor of their own human traditions and logic.

I can only thank God that he is merciful to those who are honestly ignorant of the truth. Those who are willingly and deliberately rejecting the truth, however, the truth which they know to be true, are an entirely different matter.

I’m guessing that it sucks to be them.

Oh…and Happy New Year by the way.

 

[MariaG]

Hi hoosier,
If you’ll notice, in each post in the lower right hand corner, there is a quote button and a multi quote button. If you wish to respond to one post, hit the quote button and the Quote with a link will appear in your reply box. If you want to do more than one post, hit the multiquote button. On the last post of your multi quotes that you wish to respond to, hit the quote instead of just the multi quote and all that you hit will appear in your reply box.

One can edit out stuff but people can still refer back to the original post if they wish to clarify. It makes things easier to understand who said what instead of retyping or bolding You have to be careful when editing that you do not get rid of any brackets or the quotes won’t come out right. I just spent an amount of time finding the “/” that I had accidently edited out which had the result of not properly quoting you.

Also, you can break up a reply, and “quote” to make multiple answers to the same quote. This feature is on the toolbar next to the mountain and the # sign.

We believe that the blood of Christ make us perfectly clean for heaven through purgatory the moment we die.

The book of Hebrews and Christ Himself would disagree with this blasphemy. You are counting the Blood of Christ as cheap. Which is it, fire or blood? It ain’t both.

It is quite clear that Mr. Ex Nihilo said it is the blood of Christ. The Blood cleanses AS IF through fire. It is the blood of Christ. We have not claimed it is both. It’s the Blood that cleanses us of all sin.

They believe that the blood of Christ make them perfectly clean for heaven through faith the moment they believe.

All else is commentary

The book of Hebrews and Christ Himself would testify to this truth.

And could you be more specific as to why?

I too say that scripture and Christ Himself testify to the truth of purgatory, (and have posted many times the scripture in this thread, but you would have had to read the whole thing to see it), so you would need to get a little more specific than just your word. Quoting scripture and giving your interpretation of Scripture would be a good start

Yup. He just can’t admit that purgtory is all about the blood of Christ.

I always find it kind of sad when people are so caught up in their own self understanding they can not even hear what we are saying and admit they misunderstood a teaching of a church they do not belong to.

Like I said, why is it so hard to say, “Okay, you believe purgatory is a process in which the blood of Christ cleanses you of all sin, making you perfectly clean for heaven and this happens the moment you die. I believe this happens the moment we give our lives over to Christ and here is why I am right.”

We all agree that it is Christ’s blood that cleanses us. We just disagree on WHEN this happens. Why can’t he admit this?

My guess is because only one position is right and since this is a matter of life and death and eternity, neither of our sides wants to be swayed from what we believe is true.

Which position is wrong? The Catholic position that it is the blood that cleanses our sin or yours that it is the blood that cleanses our sin?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[brkn1]

Hmmm…no. Purgatory is not hell.

By the way, when I clicked on the link and typed in ‘purgatory’ in the search field, I got only one link…

realtruth.org/articles/415-dpe.html

This is not a Catholic site as far as I can tell. And there are glaring errors about Catholicism recorded within this on-line article too.

Could you provide a direct link to the Catholic article you were refering too which claimed that purgatory is hell?

I’m sorry about giving the wrong link. I should have used: www.scripturecatholic.com . You will see Purgatory on the list to the left a short ways down.

Whether that site does turn out to be a Catholic site or not, the claim that “the rich man is in purgatory” definitely seems to be in error and they should correct it.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Since it’s about life, death, and eternity, I *want *to be swayed, if what I believe isn’t true.

And, the only way I can be so predisposed, is to be like the Ethiopian with Philip and say, how can I understand if someone doesn’t explain it?

Then, I have to figure out which Someone (presumably the Ethiopian meant that there will always be an identifiable authority) has the authority to do so.

It would have to be a body visible and identifiable from the start, through today, without interruption.

If a certain someone comes along saying something no one said for the first fifteen centuries of Christianity (like that our behavior, prayers, sacrifices, and suffering have no effect on our own salvation), I’d keep on looking for the real authority.

Peace.
John

Hey John, how’s it goin? I would want to be swayed to the truth too. But I’m convinced I’ve found it. If I believe in a works salvation I am going to hell.

As for the first fifteen centuries of Christianity, well people were enslaved. Nobody could question what the Church taught them. Either they’d be persecuted or executed, etc. Besides, most people weren’t knowledgable of the Scriptures so they just accepted whatever the Church said. That was fine for that time, I’m sure God could be gracious. But we don’t have any excuse today.

 

[MariaG]

Hey John, how’s it goin? I would want to be swayed to the truth too. But I’m convinced I’ve found it. If I believe in a works salvation I am going to hell.

As for the first fifteen centuries of Christianity, well people were enslaved. Nobody could question what the Church taught them. Either they’d be persecuted or executed, etc. Besides, most people weren’t knowledgable of the Scriptures so they just accepted whatever the Church said. That was fine for that time, I’m sure God could be gracious. But we don’t have any excuse today.

How is purgatory a works salvation? Purgatory is about the cleansing blood of Christ and the only work done is by God.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

sigh

So much for friendly ecumenical dialogue between denominations.

You can sigh all you want at me and try to mock me but you’re not going to get a very friendly discussion when a) something said was blasphemous and b) I was basically called a non-Christian by someone else on here. Goes both ways.

All I’m reading are yet more empty assertions and slanders against the Catholic Church without any substance whatsover. And blasphemous assertions and slanders against her at that.

Empty assertions and slander? Truth hurt? What’s blasphemous is to spout some of the stuff I’ve seen spouted here. It is a heinous sin to count the Blood of Christ as cheap and anyone thinking “the fires of purgatory” cleanse us from our sin is seriously misinformed. You may accuse me of blasphemy against your church; the Bible and myself accuse you of blasphemy against my Lord.

How exactly does Christ’s blood cleansing us in purgatory cheapen God’s grace?

If you can’t figure out the answer should you really be accusing me of blasphemy?

There’s nothing cheap about the blood of Christ cleansing all people’s sins. Nothing cheap about this at all. God willingly gave his life on the cross for our sins. God died on the cross for you and me.

You’re right there isn’t. That’s what it does. The fires of purgatory don’t accomplish a thing in regards to salvation.

It’s the grace of God hoosierdaddy. Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

The book of Hebrews and Christ Himself would disagree with this blasphemy.

See how easy it is to refute people when making these kinds of empty assertions?

See how easy it is to slander someone’s character instead of reading the book of Hebrews!

I’ve never claimed you were blaspheming anything. And yet I’m repeatedly hearing claims that the Catholic Church somehow blashpemes God with the doctrine of purgatory.

**You haven’t. Others have. **

If you’re going to make the same assertions over and over again, claming that the Catholic Church teaches blasphemy, at least make an effort back up what you’re claiming.

I did. Start with the book of Hebrews.

In fact, if you’re going to play that game then I might as well not mince words anymore.

Right now, in your own stubborn and obstinant heart, you are blaspheming God himself by rejecting the testimony of those who really know God better than you do-- and we have been placed here to reveal the truth to you via the Holy Spirit.

**Riiiiight. **

The simple truth is that I know God better than you do hoosierdaddy.

LOL And a man with a funny hat tells you that?

You Protestants worship what you do not know; we Catholics worship what we do know, for Christ lives in the Catholic Church.

**LOL You worship His mother and the Church. **

I have to go. I’ll deal with the rest later.

In other words, you only know a partial truth, a partial truth which was originally fully revealed by the Catholic Church-- and your partial truth has been somewhat perverted and corrupted by the erroneous traditions of the humanistic aspects of the Renaissance period. More to the point, they seem to have entered a phase where they worship their printing presses even more than their own versions of the Bible they printed from them-- and yes, I do mean ‘worship’ their own version of the Bible.

As 2 Timothy 4:3 clearly states, the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

This isn’t talking about the beginning of the Church. This is talking about, just like sin progressively piling up prior to the Great Deluge, the increase of sin and lawlessness piling up prior to the end of days when the Church approaches the consumation.

In other words, this is talking about the rise of various contradictory protestantisms leading to inceasingly more heretical groups, leading to increasingly more apostate groups, leading the world increasingly closer to the dangers of hell as more and more of God’s grace (God’s life within you) is rejected in favor of their own human traditions and logic.

I can only thank God that he is merciful to those who are honestly ignorant of the truth. Those who are willingly and deliberately rejecting the truth, however, the truth which they know to be true, are an entirely different matter.

I’m guessing that it sucks to be them.

Oh…and Happy New Year by the way.

 

[MariaG]

from post # by hoosierdaddy
Empty assertions and slander? Truth hurt? What’s blasphemous is to spout some of the stuff I’ve seen spouted here. It is a heinous sin to count the Blood of Christ as cheap and anyone thinking “the fires of purgatory” cleanse us from our sin is seriously misinformed. You may accuse me of blasphemy against your church; the Bible and myself accuse you of blasphemy against my Lord.

Again, it is not the fire that cleanses. It is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from our sins. We are cleansed BY HIS BLOOD, as if through fire.

You have said on other threads, most of what you have learned about the Catholic Church is from Protestants. I too used to be where you are. Why don’t you let go of what Protestants (or people who USED to be Catholic) say purgatory is and start listening to the those who are actually practicing Catholics?

The teaching of purgatory does not say that fire, in and of itself cleanses us from our sins.

Purgatory is the process in which we are cleansed through the saving grace of Christ’s blood. And then fire comes in when we try to describe HOW Christ’s blood cleanses, using scripture to describe.

You know, one day, I actually picked up a Catechism of the Catholic Church. As a technical “cradle Catholic” whose parents left the Church when I was 4, I knew nothing about the teachings of the Catholic Church. When people found out I “used” to be Catholic, they would ask me questions. When I could not answer them, they would proceed to tell me things that “CAtholics believed” that proved they could not be Christian if they actually believed them.

Every time I looked up in the Catechism different topics, I found the person was wrong about what they thought the Catholic Church taught.

Worship Mary? Not supposed to.

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.” The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The Blood is what cleanse our sins

613 Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”,439 and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.440

440 Mt 26:28; cf. Ex 24:8; Lev 16:15-16;* 1 Cor* 11:25

I recommend picking up a hard copy, but that is just a personal choice.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Note:

Online version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church by index or the main “contents” page Catechism of the Catholic Church

And if in doubt as to what the Catechism is saying, look to Catholics to explain instead of those who used to be Catholic or never were in the first place.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[apophasis]

It’s not a hard thing to do at all. Unfortunately many seem to be hell-bent determined to make sure that Catholic doctrines are presented in such a distorted way that they cannot possibly make sense to them.

Actually, it’s those like you and MariaG who are bent on distorting historic Catholic doctrines like Purgatory by trying to make them less serious, even less offensive. Even more Protestant.

If Purgatory was always taught to be such a pleasant experience, as you’re now trying to portray it, then why, pray tell, have Latin Catholics historically handed over large amounts money to their “Church” authorities, or volunteered to endanger their lives on Crusades, in hopes to shorten or even avoid their future stint, or that of a loved one already in Purgatory? If it was always taught to be such a pleasant experience, then why the earnestness to avoid it? Just sit back and enjoy it - let it happen.

Actually, you guys do a GREAT disservice and dishonor those Catholics, and by your new descriptions of that “future abode” you cast even greater guilt upon those (Popes and Prelates) who then took the money and/or drafted them into harms way under false pretenses by instilling great fear of Purgatory in them.

Seems fairly clear to you and I that purgatory is all about the blood of Christ. Purgatory is all about the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin as if through fire.

Are you quoting 1 Cor. 3:15? If so, you’re WAY out of context. As pointed out previously the context is not at all about “sin,” as you assert above, but the evaluation of a believer’s WORKS. Claim what you will, but you’ll never change the context of what is written there. This is the beauty of having the Written Word and the ability to read. The “fire” is figuative for the Lord’s omniscience, and His redeeming blood is mentioned nowhere in the passage. That’s because there is no “cleansing” process of sins being described there, but the evaluation of a believer’s works and the dispensing or holding of rewards.

When I asked you to show me passages in the Tenach where Purgatory is actually taught, I didn’t ask you to show me passages where the word “fire” is used. You read your beloved doctrine into those verses, but they in no way actually teach it.

We believe that the blood of Christ make us perfectly clean for heaven through purgatory the moment we die.

Yet there is no such concept taught in the Scriptures - anywhere.

They believe that the blood of Christ make them perfectly clean for heaven through faith the moment they believe.

A truth totally taught in the Scriptures and based on the ever cleansing, shed blood of Christ.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

You can sigh all you want at me and try to mock me…

I’m sighing because I find it frustrating that you’re not understanding what we’re claiming.

Furthermore, the only mockery that was done was to show how it feels when someone claims over and over again that what you believe God revealed to you is actually a blasphemy before the God you worship. That’s why I was using the roll eyes smiley.

It doesn’t make a person feel good, does it?

Likewise, once the name-calling starts, this usually closes the paths of communication between the two people.

So if you want to hear what we’re actually claiming, then please stop claiming we’re teaching blasphemies and actually make an effort to understand what we actually claim to believe in-- not what others misunderstand about Catholic doctrines.

hoosierdaddy:

…but you’re not going to get a very friendly discussion when a) something said was blasphemous…

See…there you go again. This is your claim against ours-- and it doesn’t really prove much of anything expect that you believe that what we’re teaching is blasphemous. It certainly doesn’t prove that your claim is correct-- no more so that us making a similar claims proves we’re right.

hoosierdaddy:

…and b) I was basically called a non-Christian by someone else on here.

Well, I didn’t call you a non-Christian. In fact, I do beleive that you are a Christian-- and I’ve never denied this…expect when using the ironic sarcasm in order to get you to understand how it feels to be called a blasphemer.

See…that’s the thing. I do believe that you are a Christian. I just happen to believe, as a Catholic, that you are in error on a few key points.

hoosierdaddy:

Goes both ways.

No. Actually, it doesn’t.

You, on the other hand, if I’m understanding you correctly, seem to be implying that I am not a Christian-- and if that’s the case, then, no, this does not go both ways.

I’ve never really denied that you were a Christian. I’ve also never attempted to malign your own theology in order to prove that you believed something that you do not actually believe in either.

Now can you stop projecting your anger onto people who never said these things to you in the first place?

hoosierdaddy:

Empty assertions and slander? Truth hurt?

No. What hurts is that you apparently have no intentions to actually listen to what we’re explaining to you.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

continued…

hoosierdaddy:

What’s blasphemous is to spout some of the stuff I’ve seen spouted here. It is a heinous sin to count the Blood of Christ as cheap and anyone thinking “the fires of purgatory” cleanse us from our sin is seriously misinformed.

Purgatory is the blood of Christ being appplied to the soul in order to purify it, just as a refiner refines impurities from gold for example. The blood of Christ really destroys the sins in our soul, a truly painful process, purifiying the soul through the blood of Christ in a way similar to how fire is used by a refiner to purify gold.

Look here…
Isaiah 48:10:

See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

And here…
Malachi 3:2:

But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

And here…
1 Peter 1:6-7:

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Despite claims to the contrary, there is absolutely nothing blasphemous about people sharing in Christ’s sufferings so that we may glorify God.

For example…
Romans 8:17:

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

And again…
Hebrews 2:9-10:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

And again…
1 Peter 4:13:

But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

And echoing Hebrews 2:10 above, but applied to Christians…
1 Peter 5:10:

And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

hoosierdaddy:

You may accuse me of blasphemy against your church;

It’s a combination of sarcasm and irony hoosierdaddy.

It’s designed, metaphorically speaking, to act like a good slap across the face in order to get someone’s attention so that they realize how **they sound **when they accuse others of the same thing-- ie., blasphemy.

How did you feel when I retorted and bluntly accused you of blaspheming God?

Did you feel good?

How do think I felt when you originally, bluntly accused me of blaspheming God?

Do you think I felt good?

I can assure you that the hairs on the back of my neck bristled, just as I’m sure yours did too.

I personally don’t think the idea that once saved always saved is a blasphemy. I just think this doctrine is wrong, an incorrect understanding of the Scriptural record which can lead to some very dangerous thoughts.

hoosierdaddy:

…the Bible and myself accuse you of blasphemy against my Lord.

These kind of claims might work within your church-- with like-minded people who already believe as you do. But they don’t work here. If you want to convince us (and others), then your going to have to step past the stage of trying to ‘preach to the choir’ and actually demonstrate by the Holy Spirit why your understanding is superior to ours.

To be honest, I don’t see any real reason to believe that your understanding is better than ours. Likewise, when I examine church history, I see plenty of reasons to believe that those who have taught this within the early church from the beginning are indeed speaking by the Holy Spirit-- God is speaking through them.

hoosierdaddy:

If you can’t figure out the answer should you really be accusing me of blasphemy?

By now you should understand why I placed the rolling eyes smiley…

Anyway, this doesn’t really answer the question.

**We believe that the blood of Christ makes us perfectly clean for heaven through purgatory the moment we die.

You believe that the blood of Christ makes you perfectly clean for heaven through faith the moment you believe.**

You said that our view is a blasphemous one and that your view is the Scriptural one.

In both cases, the blood of Christ is doing the cleansing.

But if the timing of the cleansing via the blood of Christ is believed to be the only difference between our views, why is our view a blasphemous one and your view a Scriptural one?

 

[Montalban]

MrExNihilo:

Not fully paying the satisfaction means God has not fully cleansed them yet. From the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you. As in life, so in death.

No, it means God is not satisfied. That’s why such terms are used. It says “God requires satisfaction…”
MrExNihilo:

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with God requiring satisfaction or punishing sin for that matter. There’s nothing unscriptural about the part you emphasized.

Then God needs to punish people
MrExNihilo:

Likewise, doing penance is yet another manifestation of God’s grace. From the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

You do this, to satisfy God.
MrExNihilo:

Right. And unless you understand that, from the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you, you are not going to understand what’s being said here.

The emotive appeal “You just don’t understand us” doesn’t work.
MrExNihilo:

No. This is why protestants don’t accept the divine revelation of purgatory.

I don’t wish to speak for all Protestants; they in fact also believe God needs to be satisfied. But for them, this is done through a kind of one-off payment. For you guys, you need to continually pay off your debts to a God that needs this.
MrExNihilo:

They think that they are completely redeemed in one moment and totally ignore the fact that they continue to sin after they’ve been forgiven. They totally ignore the fact that the effects of sin continue to affect us well after our sins have been forgiven too. They totally ignore the fact that while the life, death and resurrection of Jesus occured at a finite point in time and space, that the effects of sacrifice extends all throughout human history.

I’m not here to defend Protestant’s views.
MrExNihilo:

When Adam sinned long ago, he was forgiven by the shed blood of Christ.

Which is what Protestants believe
MrExNihilo:

When Peter sinned during the time of Christ, he was forgiven by the shed blood of Christ. When someone in the future that we do not know yet someday sins, if they are forgiven, then they have been forgiven by the shed blood of Christ.

Grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

This is still not addressing the fact you have a God that needs some kind of legalistic framework by which you sin, your sins are weighed up, and He punishes you until He is satisfied.
MrExNihilo:

We don’t ‘suppose’ anything. It’s a divine revelation that God will not allow any unclean thing into his presence. Therefore, as in life, so too in death, God does the work of cleansing us by the blood of Christ.

Again, from the Catholic perspective, grace is God’s life within you-- God is doing the work. As in life, so in death.

This supposes that God simply won’t forgive right away all sins that you’ve committed, upon genuine request that they be forgiven. It supposes God still needs to be ‘satisfied’.

 

[apophasis]

AGAIN,
The Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is a place. Most Catholics think of it as a place, but this is just because it is usually easier for our limited understanding when thought of in this manner.

The official teaching of the Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is a place. In fact, JPII said it should be thought of as more of a process, one that can even be instantaneous.

What does it matter if it’s a place or process? It’s still a process that takes place somewhere after this life. But tell me, from where did JPII get his information? What was his divine source?

You are asking us to prove that purgatory is a place and the official teaching of the Catholic Church does not claim that purgatory is a place.

Then prove to me based on divine revelation the validity of this “process?” You seem to theologize a lot on a “process” which neither Christ or His Apostles knew anything about. How is it YOU have detailed information when those who should have been in the know, knew nothing of it?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Mr.Ex, I will try to address your post more completely tomorrow (and Maria’s).

I am sorry but I do believe your view of “cleansing” is blasphemous. The only thing that cleanses us from our sin is the Blood of Christ. I have to defend this. However, I also have to do it more charitably. I should not have said some of the things I said nor written out of anger. Though I believe your view is blasphemous this does not mean you are 'the devil" or anything. It just means you are in error according to what I believe.

I will address the Scripture verses you gave later as well ok? I hope we can discuss this a little more calmly or at least keep it from getting personal. We are both passionate about our convictions. God bless.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Actually, it’s those like you and MariaG who are bent on distorting historic Catholic doctrines like Purgatory by trying to make them less serious, even less offensive. Even more Protestant.

If Purgatory was always taught to be such a pleasant experience…~snip~

Stop right there. I’ve never said that purgatory was always taught to be a pleasant experience. In fact, we’ve been saying the opposite of this-- it is only the most rare cases that one is purified completely in this life prior to their death and individual judgement.

As we’ve said repeatedly, purgatory is the blood of Christ being appplied to the soul in order to purify it, just as a refiner refines impurities from gold for example. The blood of Christ really destroys the sins in our soul, a truly painful process, purifiying the soul through the blood of Christ in a way similar to how fire is used by a refiner to purify gold.

Look here…
Isaiah 48:10:

See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

And here…
Malachi 3:2:

But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

And here…
1 Peter 1:6-7:

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Despite claims to the contrary, there is absolutely nothing blasphemous about people sharing in Christ’s sufferings so that we may glorify God.

For example…
Romans 8:17:

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

And again…
Hebrews 2:9-10:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

And again…
1 Peter 4:13:

But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

And echoing Hebrews 2:9-10 above, but applied to Christians…
1 Peter 5:10:

And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

So coming back to the main point…

**We believe that the blood of Christ makes us perfectly clean for heaven through purgatory the moment we die.

You believe that the blood of Christ makes you perfectly clean for heaven through faith the moment you believe.**

Now you also said that our view is a blasphemous one and that your view is the Scriptural one.

In both cases, the blood of Christ is doing the cleansing.

But if the timing of the cleansing via the blood of Christ is believed to be the only difference between our views, why is our view a blasphemous one and your view a Scriptural one?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Actually, it’s those like you and MariaG who are bent on distorting historic Catholic doctrines like Purgatory by trying to make them less serious, even less offensive. Even more Protestant.

No. It’s like you are finally starting to realize what we’ve been saying all along.

We know for example that 1 Corinthians 12:3 says that no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 10:19-21 goes even further and says, “But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.”

This is exactly the same kind of spiritual dynamic understood within the Christian Scriptures to be at work within the Hebrew Scriptures too. For example, 2 Peter 1:21 says, “For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

In other words, when someone is truthfully speaking truth in regards to God’s revelation, they are not speaking.** God is speaking through them**. Therefore, the words they speak are a manifestation of God acting though them to reveal his will.

Or, as 1 Peter 4:11 states…

If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

The Scriptures are exceptionally clear about how this dynamic works.

1 Peter 1:23 say that you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 2:14 says I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Colossians 3:16 says to let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

Romans 8:9 says that you are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:16 asks. “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?”

2 Corinthians 13:4 says he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God’s power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God’s power we will live with him to serve you.

Galatians 2:20 says I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:22 says in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

2 Timothy 1:14 says to guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

1 John 4:12 says if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

1 John 4:15 says if anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

1 John 4:16 says and so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

Colossians 1:29 says to this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 asks, “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?”

There is a tremendous amount of Scriptural writings which display this interaction between God and man, with God acting through those who believe.

In short, if someone does something toward salvation, then it is Christ working through them-- not them earning their way into heaven through their own human effort. The actions they do are the actions of God acting through them by the Holy Spirit because of the blood of Christ which was shed for us and opened the door to all of God’s graces-- past, present, and future.

continued…

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued

Even the gifts of the Spirit work this way.

1. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak a message of knowledge, God is revealing this message of knowledge through them, essentially speaking the message of knowledge through them.
2. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak a message of wisdom, God is revealing this message of wisdom through them, essentially speaking the message of wisdom through them.
3. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to perform a gift of healing, God is revealing this gift of healing through them, essentially performing the gift of healing through them.
4. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to perform a miraculous power, God is revealing this miraculous power through them, essentially performing the miraculous power through them.
5. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to prophesy, God is revealing this prophesy through them, essentially prophesying through them.
6. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to distinguish between spirits, God is revealing this distinguishing between spirits through them, essentially distinguishing between spirits through them.
7. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to speak in different kinds of tongues, God is revealing this speaking in different kinds of tongues through them, essentially speaking in different kinds of tongues through them.
8. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to interpret these tongues, God is revealing this interpretation of these tongues through them, essentially interpreting these tongues through them.
9. When the Holy Spirit moves within someone to have faith in Jesus, God is revealing this faith in Jesus through them, essentially having faith in Jesus through them.

In all these above cases God is manifesting something within them by the same Spirit, working through them in a way that they are quite frankly incapable of doing by their own human power or intellect.

As Ephesians 4:7-10 clearly spells out…

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.

This is why God says:

When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.

What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

When Jesus died on the cross, this was the singular event by which he reached out to all of humanity and graced all people who would be saved in him-- past, present, and future.

Or, as Ephesians 2:13 states…

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

And again…
Hebrews 10:18-22:

And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

The same exact thing is happening in the purgation of the soul by the blood of Christ, whether dead or alive– God is manifesting something within them by the same Spirit, working through them in a way that they are quite frankly incapable of doing by their own human power or intellect. And this all happens because of the blood of Christ.

Nothing has changed within Catholicism. This is the way it’s always worked.

 

[Montalban]

We need not dwell upon the possibility of the salvation of mankind or upon its appropriateness. Nor need we remind the reader that after God had freely determined to save the human race, He might have done so by pardoning man’s sins without having recourse to the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Still, the Incarnation of the Word was the most fitting means for the salvation of man, and was even necessary, in case God claimed full satisfaction for the injury done to him
by sin (see INCARNATION).
newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

We need not dwell upon the possibility of the salvation of mankind or upon its appropriateness. Nor need we remind the reader that after God had freely determined to save the human race, He might have done so by pardoning man’s sins without having recourse to the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Still, the Incarnation of the Word was the most fitting means for the salvation of man, and was even necessary, in case God claimed full satisfaction for the injury done to him
by sin (see INCARNATION).
newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

And this implies?

Anyway, let’s allow the Scriptures to speak of the dead for a moment…

There’s this…
John 5:25:

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

And this…
Matthew 12:40:

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And this…

(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

And this…
1 Peter 3:18-20:

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

And even this verse seems to mesh with this message…
1 Peter 4:5-6:

But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Some would say that this passage only means those who were alive when Jesus came-- and later died. But looking at these other passages, it can also certainly mean that Christ preached to the dead as well, just as he says in John 5:25.

Either way, I don’t think there’s any valid question about whether God does come to people in death and reveals Himself to them or not.

Clearly, Jesus did preach to all-- even to the dead. In fact, it was through his blood shed on the cross that he was able to do this, even to those who had not formerly heard the fullness of truth as presented within Catholicism and therefore did not have direct access to the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity in their lives.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

We need not dwell upon the possibility of the salvation of mankind or upon its appropriateness. Nor need we remind the reader that after God had freely determined to save the human race, He might have done so by pardoning man’s sins without having recourse to the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Still, the Incarnation of the Word was the most fitting means for the salvation of man, and was even necessary, in case God claimed full satisfaction for the injury done to him
by sin (see INCARNATION).
newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

If you had read a little further, you would have also read this part…

Hence follows the perfection of the salvation wrought by Christ for mankind. On His part Christ offered to God a satisfaction for man’s sin not only sufficient but superabundant (Romans 5:15-20); on God’s part supposing, what is contained in the very idea of man’s redemption through Christ, that God agreed to accept the work of the Redeemer for the sins of man, He was bound by His promise and His justice to grant the remission of sin to the extent and in the manner intended by Christ.

In this way our salvation has won back for us the essential prerogative of the state of original justice, i.e., sanctifying grace while it will restore the minor prerogatives of the Resurrection.

At the same time, it does not at once blot out individual sin, but only procures the means thereto, and these means are not restricted only to the predestined or to the faithful, but extend to all men (1 John 2:2; 1 Timothy 2:1-4).

Moreover salvation makes us coheirs of Christ (Romans 8:14-17), a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9; cf. Exodus 19:6), sons of God, temples of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 3:16), and other Christs–Christianus alter Christus; it perfects the angelical orders, raises the dignity of the material world, and restores all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9-10).

By our salvation all things are ours, we are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s (1 Corinthians 3:22-23).