Why do Protestants object to Purgatory?

[shawn34_a]

Mary says to me, “Do whatever He tells you to do.” (John 2:5) She also teaches me about His human and divine nature. So, you see, she helps me a great deal, and to have Mary is to really have Jesus - not just my own ideas about Jesus (which could be false, since I am not personally infallible), but the real Truth about Him.

I’ve never could quite understand the signifance people give Mary based on this passage. My point being is that when we are baptized into Christ, we are suppose to be doing whatever Christ tells us. It’s not much different then what the apostles tell us to do. It’s not any different then what the priests tell us to do.

 

[shawn34_a]

Shawn;

How can there be a Tribulation (a persecution of the Church on earth) if the Church is already in Heaven?
The tribulation is Satan’s wrath on earth. The tribulation will last 3 1/2 years. Finally Satan will kill the two witnesses. They will be called up at the same time roughly the Church, those according to Revelations 20, will be called up. Not all Christians will be raptured. Revelations is specific. The rest will sleep in Christ until the end of the millenium.

When Jesus comes, that’s it; the end of the world and then the Last Judgment. There will be no human beings left on the earth after the Last Judgement - everyone will either be in Heaven, or else in Hell. There will be no Tribulation after that.

No it is not. Revelations 20 is specific. The final judgement (2nd judgement), will then take place.

Jesus is only coming in His human body to the earth once more - He is not coming twice. The First Coming has already been; the Second Coming is the Judgement Day. There isn’t going to be a “Once and a half” Coming.

The 2nd coming is the first judgement. Revelations 20 again. Then the 1000 year reign. Satan will be loosed. Then the final judgement will take place.

Revelations 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for £a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

 

[Zooey]

Is it possible to start a new thread for it so I can follow up on it as a separate discussion outside of protestant objections to purgatory?

One would hope so…but this thread looks to be heading for a “Chapter the Second” anyway…

I don’t have anything, I think, overly brilliant to say. Just a lot of jumbled thoughts, & being the Friendly Neighborhood Methodist", I am uncomfortable being untidy that way…but here goes:
I have just read this from the start. These are things that popped into my head. I want to get them written, & then maybe in Chapter Two, we can discuss them??

1. John Wesley, on Entire Sanctification. The Wesleys, you see, were sometimes called the “Holy Club”. People made fun of them, because they aspired to truly holy living. (Catholics might say, John & Charles had set out to become saints).
   I have never totally understood the idea. But it seems to me,at this point in time, clearer than it ever has before. Maybe because it appears to be a kind of intersect between what I hear both Catholics & Protestants saying here…
2. My Grandpa Mark. I never had the privilege of knowing him; he died 3 years before I was born. He was a Free Will Baptist preacher’s son. After his dad died, his mother returned to NY with her family, to be nearer to relatives.
   There were no Free Will Baptists here, & they ended up as Free Methodists. Grandpa Mark struggled with the Wesleyan teachings. He was a true scholar, & my grandmother would tell about how proud she was of the fact that, working on his own time, he covered enough mental & spiritual territory to be ordained a Free Methodist deacon…
   Then, in front of all that huge church, chuckfull of people, the bishop asked him what every Methodist is asked: “Do you expect to achieve Entire Sanctification in this life?” The standard answer is a simple “yes”, & things proceed…
   But he was an honest man. He thought long & hard, & then he said, “No”.
   My grandmother said, “I could just have killed him. Only I was looking for a place to sink thru the floor & hide!!”

As I say, I never knew him, but his face has been floating before me, as I have read here. He would not have used, nor even, perhaps, recognized “purgatory” as the concept he was grappling to understand. He just knew that in this world, he was not sinless. (I can’t imagine what he might have done. He could, & he wouldn’t, under any definition of sanctity, claim to such a thing.
But, surely, he took seriously those words “sanctified” & “in this life”. He said, later, that he expected to be entirely sancitified in the next life…but not this one.

Is that anything like anybody was trying to say at all???

God bless all here.

 

[shawn34_a]

That’s a great point and what we’ve been trying to show those on this thread who deny the Biblical truth of purgatory. When we sin and then ask God for forgiveness, He is faithful to forgive us, however we also are accountable for those sins we freely commit, be they great or small.

This has nothing to do with purgatory. When we repent, we recognize our sin and ask for fogiveness. Forgiveness alone is not enough. There needs to be some form of penance to show our sincerity or else our behavior may never change.

 

[Bishopite]

This has nothing to do with purgatory. When we repent, we recognize our sin and ask for fogiveness. Forgiveness alone is not enough. There needs to be some form of penance to show our sincerity or else our behavior may never change.

What I meant was forgiveness alone in the broader sense of the phrase that is to say forgiveness would involve the sacrament of confession (for Catholics) and penance, of course for everyone. I didn’t even address the issue of penance but that doesn’t mean I don’t think penace isn’t part of forgiveness, it is as is contrition and absolution. If I meant forgiveness alone in the broader sense; that it is achieved in the sacrament of reconciliation which invloves penance and contrition and restitution then I could most certainly use forgiveness alone You are perhaps thinking I’m using forgiveness alone in the Protestant sense like sola fide (faith alone). No I wasn’t using “forgiveness alone” that way.

This is off subject but what I am saying is much like the argument of sola fide (faith alone) which can be accepted by a Catholic, depending what the Protestant means by the word “faith.” Jimmy Akin of Catholic answers says it this way…

“Whether a Catholic will condemn the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).
However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.
A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word “formed” to clarify the nature of the faith in “sola fide” renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.”

cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm

Penance and restitution are needed because of God’s justice to right the wrong done by the affects of sin on the body of Christ. I would think contrition would affect our sincerity and behavior although penance can also affect our behavior. But doing penance also implies a contrite heart too

 

[JoeyWarren]

Mat 24:38
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

And exactly who got raptured(taken away)? It was the sinners that had a zero chance of salvation. Noah and the OT believers were left behind to be tested further. If a pre-trib rapture occurs, then it will be those sinners that have a zero chance of salvation. Then the Tribulation will occur to test those that are left behind. Several verses are out there that attest to God testing believers and that all will not make the grade.

 

[MrS]

1. My Grandpa Mark. I never had the privilege of knowing him; he died 3 years before I was born. He was a Free Will Baptist preacher’s son. After his dad died, his mother returned to NY with her family, to be nearer to relatives.
   There were no Free Will Baptists here, & they ended up as Free Methodists. Grandpa Mark struggled with the Wesleyan teachings. He was a true scholar, & my grandmother would tell about how proud she was of the fact that, working on his own time, he covered enough mental & spiritual territory to be ordained a Free Methodist deacon…
   Then, in front of all that huge church, chuckfull of people, the bishop asked him what every Methodist is asked: “Do you expect to achieve Entire Sanctification in this life?” The standard answer is a simple “yes”, & things proceed…
   But he was an honest man. He thought long & hard, & then he said, “No”.
   My grandmother said, “I could just have killed him. Only I was looking for a place to sink thru the floor & hide!!”

As I say, I never knew him, but his face has been floating before me, as I have read here. He would not have used, nor even, perhaps, recognized “purgatory” as the concept he was grappling to understand. He just knew that in this world, he was not sinless. (I can’t imagine what he might have done. He could, & he wouldn’t, under any definition of sanctity, claim to such a thing.
But, surely, he took seriously those words “sanctified” & “in this life”. He said, later, that he expected to be entirely sancitified in the next life…but not this one.

Is that anything like anybody was trying to say at all???

God bless all here.

I believe that he now knows of God’s mercy in purgatory… and the last attachments to world/flesh/devil have been purged there for all eternity… now he is sanctified fully so that he may enter heaven.

and… He is Catholic now… :yup:

 

[Pryority7]

Believers…you sound like me 15 years ago…since then I’ve wised up and learned the truth about dispensationalism. You should study it too and not absorb everything you hear like a sponge…

P7

 

[MrS]

And exactly who got raptured(taken away)? It was the sinners that had a zero chance of salvation. Noah and the OT believers were left behind to be tested further. If a pre-trib rapture occurs, then it will be those sinners that have a zero chance of salvation. Then the Tribulation will occur to test those that are left behind. Several verses are out there that attest to God testing believers and that all will not make the grade.

that is Catholic teaching… thanks for expressing it here,

 

[AlegreFe]

You don’t understand then what I was talking about. Those that are Catholic that I know, believed that the Church was going to be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation.

The tribulation is going on right now. So if the Church was raptured, then what are we? http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Huh.gif

shawn34_a:

The Bible is quite clear of when the rapture is going to happen. Check under the rapture posts. I read the review and the 5 points you had listed. The means by which the rapture happens in the five points is far from Biblical doctrine. I listed in the rapture column how it was to take place and when though no one knows the day or hour.
The fact is that the rapture is real. It is the second coming of Christ where he calls those that were beheaded in his name and those that did not receive the mark of the beast during the tribulation. The rest that are left behind dead sleep until the final judgement. Those that are alive still, face all of God’s wrath on mankind. This is the pouring out of the bowels. At the conclusion, Satan is bound up for the thousand years and Christ will rain along with those that he called up at the first judgement (Day of the Lord, Coming of the Lord, Coming as a thief at Night). If you choose not to believe it, that’s your choice. But remember the parable of the women and their lamp oils. The Bible goes out of it’s way to keep making mention of the second coming. Jesus did say we would know the generation and the signs of the time.

You have Jesus coming back at least 2 or 3 more times. :whacky: How many times do you think Jesus is going to come back? http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/huh.gif

You do know that the Satan is loose right now right? http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/huh.gif Well he is.

I say my Saint Michael prayer every day!

St. Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our defense against the
wickedness and snares of the Devil.
May God rebuke him,
we humbly pray, and do thou,
O Prince of the heavenly hosts,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan,
and all the evil spirits,
who prowl around the world
seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

Prayer to St. Michael (different longer version)

 

[Sixtus]

Originally Posted by jmcrae
The Judgement Day will not take place until after the destruction of the whole earth. Up until that moment it continues to be the Age of Mercy.

Not so. That’s your religion talking.

It might be ‘our’ religion talking but that is the only one [except Orthodoxy] that has a valid voice.

That is the religion the Lord spoke to and commissioned

 

[shawn34_a]

The tribulation is going on right

Prayer to St. Michael (different longer version)

Daniel’s 70th week is not going on right now. The first thing that must happen is the signing of the covenant in which will allow for the third temple to be build. This will mark the beginning of the tribulation. Halfway through Daniel’s 70th week, the beginning of the tribulation, the antichrist will stand in the Holiest of Holies claiming to be God, cut of sacrifices, and etc.

No, that’s not true. The return of Jesus is mentioned several times. But you must understand that the book of Revelations is not in chronological order from front to back. It is in an order however. Much like the gospels are parallel and tell the same story of Christ, Revelations is written much in the same way with the the trumpets, seals, and vials ending at the same point. If this was not the case, there would be multiple second comings and multiple Armageddons.

Revelations 6:12-17
12I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and £behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the £moon became like blood. 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15And the kings of the earth, the great men, £the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelations 11:15-19, focus being 19.
15Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The £kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying: “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was £and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.” 19Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of £His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelations 16:17-21
17Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

Matthew 24:29-31
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24 describes the same event culminating in his return.

 

[AlegreFe]

You don’t have to believe me, just remember what I said.

I believe Jesus and that’s all that matters. Why you decided to soak up a lot of that crazy stuff you have heard is beyond me. :whacky:

 

[Sixtus]

I find more evidence for Purgatory in Scripture than for the pretribulation rapture.

Actually I jest. Of course we know that purgatory is mentioned in scripture. St Paul mentions it, he then goes no to describe how it works. The Lord speaks of it.

I have never found one single shred of evidence in a pre-tribulation rapture.

It is my understanding that the Lord will come again 'on the last day, not the day before or the day after but the last day.

You cannot use the scriptures against the Church whose scriptures they are

 

[shawn34_a]

I believe Jesus and that’s all that matters. Why you decided to soak up a lot of that crazy stuff you have heard is beyond me. :whacky:

Are you not familiar with Revelations 1:3?
3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. We are blessed by knowing and keeping this information.
Jesus warned us in Matthew 24:23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. so that we may know the signs of the time.
If we know the signs, we can be vigilant and not fooled.

 

[shawn34_a]

Actually I jest. Of course we know that purgatory is mentioned in scripture. St Paul mentions it, he then goes no to describe how it works. The Lord speaks of it.

I have never found one single shred of evidence in a pre-tribulation rapture.

It is my understanding that the Lord will come again 'on the last day, not the day before or the day after but the last day.

You cannot use the scriptures against the Church whose scriptures they are

Where does St. Paul make mention to Purgatory? Verse please.

 

[Sixtus]

If the Lord makes demand on my soul this very night, I will say 'Lord, let me go first to a place and prepare myself.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually I jest. Of course we know that purgatory is mentioned in scripture. St Paul mentions it, he then goes no to describe how it works. The Lord speaks of it.

I have never found one single shred of evidence in a pre-tribulation rapture.

It is my understanding that the Lord will come again 'on the last day, not the day before or the day after but the last day.

You cannot use the scriptures against the Church whose scriptures they are.

 

[AlegreFe]

No, that’s not true. The return of Jesus is mentioned several times. But you must understand that the book of Revelations is not in chronological order from front to back.

Oooh don’t even talk to us Catholics about the book of Revelations. Any good Catholic that knows the Mass inside out, backwards and forwards and knows what the Mass means, could tell you all about Revelations! :yup:

Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper

REVELATION AND THE HOLY MASS

Heaven On Earth: The Liturgy of the Eucharist

Dr. Edward Sri’s The Mass: Heaven on Earth

 

[shawn34_a]

If the Lord makes demand on my soul this very night, I will say 'Lord, let me go first to a place and prepare myself.

Which verse is it exactly?