Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

[FrankLawrence]

Protestants go back to Paul and Peter and the Scriptures. That is where Sola Scriptura comes from, no?

God also said to Abraham, “On your part, you and your descendants after you must keep my covenant throughout the ages. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you that you must keep: every male among you shall be circumcised…If a male is uncircumcised, that is, if the flesh of his foreskin has not been cut away, such a one shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Genesis 17:9-10…14

“Some men came down to Antioch from Judea and began to teach the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.’ This caused much controversy between them and Paul and Barnabas. Finally, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some others should go up to see the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem about this question.” Acts 15:1-2

“After much discussion, Peter took the floor and said to them: ‘Brothers, you know well enough that from the early days God selected me to be the one from whose lips the gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe. God, who reads the hearts of men, showed his approval by granting the Holy Spirit to them just as He did to us. He made no distinction between them and us, but purified their hearts by means of faith, also. Why, then do you put God to the test by trying to place on the shoulders of these converts a yoke which neither we nor our fathers were able to bear? It is our belief rather that we are saved by the favor of the Lord Jesus, and so are they.’ At that, the whole assembly fell silent.” Acts 15:7-11, and the beginning of Acts 15:12.)

Now, Kaycee, in response to whether Sola-Scriptura comes from Paul and Peter. If Paul believed in Sola-Scriptura, he would have quoted Genesis 17:9-14 to settle the dispute. Look what he did instead, though. He went back to confer with the Bishops and Pope.

If Peter believed in Sola-Scriptura, he would have quoted Genesis 17:9-14 to arrive at his conclusion. Yet, his conclusion is the opposite of what Genesis 17:9-14 says.

If the other apostles and presbyters believed in Sola-Scriptura, they would have sternly rebuked Peter’s decision, claiming he was in blatant violation of Genesis 17:9-14. Yet, “the whole assembly fell silent.” They didn’t question him.

Why? Paul, Barnabas, the apostles, presbyters(priests), and Peter, himself knew that Peter was given the authority to infallibly declare doctrines, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ, Himself gave Peter this authority. We see this in Matthew 16:17-19. See Isaiah 22:22 for another example of “keys” indicating authority. The fact that he will be guided by the Holy Spirit is seen in John 16:13. This is the authority that the successors of Peter, the Popes, have had throughout the history of Christianity. A difference, however, is that while public revelation was still being given during the time of the apostles, public revelation has been closed since the Earthly death of the last original apostle. So, subsequent Popes can merely clarify what has been the divinely revealed truth since the beginning of Christianity, in matters of faith and morals. They can not and have not declared any “new” doctrines resulting from “new” revelations, even if “new” terminology accompanies their ex-cathedra decrees.

So, where does the doctrine of Sola-Scriptura come from? It was popularized by Martin Luther, and has led to thousands of denominations of people who believe different things, but all claim the same source of authority, the Bible. In reality, their sources of authority are their own comprehension skills that can be tainted and distorted by pride, prejudice, and false teachers. So Kaycee, I humbly ask that you please pray about this, re-examine what your church has been teaching, and realize that the Catholic Church has consistently held the same beliefs from the beginning of Christianity, and not even one of them contradicts the proper interpretation of the Bible.

 

[RobHom]

I dont think he is praying to a statue. No protestant I know thinks that. We assume that the prayers would be to the saint that the statue represents.

You apparently know very few “protestants”. I can tell you for a fact that many protestants do not “assume” that the prayers would be to the saint the statue represents. Here is an example of a protestant group that believes that Catholics practice “idolatry”: thebereans.net/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=331
Just read the header on the page when it opens.

Maybe that should be among the list of false Catholics beliefs about protestants.

Actually, it is a rather honest appraisal of what Catholics know to be very true about the thoughts and spoken words uttered by many protestants.

Here is another pack of “yutzes” who bend truth and tell lies unabashedly about Catholicism:

contenderministries.org/Catholicism/mariology.php

And whats really a “true hoot” is that those people quote “Tim La Haye”…a fiction writer…who just happens to be a good friend of the “Reverend Moon”…the cult leader of the “Moonies”… This quote is from the same page…

*In his book, Revelation Unveiled, author Tim LaHaye says this"

    "One of the dangerous trends during the twentieth century in the Church of Rome is the elevation of Mary to a status just short of deity.  News media reports indicate that millions have petitioned the Pope to declare her a member of the Trinity, though the official line is that it is not going to happen - yet.  Already she is referred to as 'the mother of God' or 'the queen of Heaven' and in some instances appears to be the dispenser of salvation, which contradicts many Scriptures...To even suggest that anyone, even Mary the human mother of Jesus, participates in dispensing the gift of eternal life is not only heresy, it is blasphemous."*

Now, as a lifelong Catholic…I can honestly say that I have never heard this from anyone in the Catholic Church!!

On that same website their is a phenomenal amount of propaganda, disinformation, and outright lies…all of it would fit well in “Pravda” or a “Der Sturmer”.

I have known many protestants who have severe misconceptions and who have been taught by their “preachers” many falsehoods about the Catholic Church. Apparently their preachers use these questionable sources for their diatribes against the Church…without ever having taken the time to find out the truth in the matter.

It is irrelevant and a diversion to admonish me for not being able to read minds at any given moment. Catholics do pray to saints.

Really? It seems that you are trying to inject your thoughts into what you think we think. Yes, we do pray “to” the saints, but not in the way that you think. It/they are prayers asking for their intercession on our behalf. It is “biblical”…and if you know your bible…you know it is.

Again, another Catholic misunderstanding. Protestants dont think you put Mary and the saints ahead of God. We think you are giving to the saints what is due only to God.

Wrong on both counts. Both of the links that I have provided show that you are in error. What the problem is…is simply that you “assume” that which is not yours to assume, and you leap to conclusions… Woefully wrong conclusions!!

On the subject of “former Catholics”…I think they are guilty of embracing “B-K” theology. Hold the lettuce, pickles, onions …have it your way. Whatever makes you feel good all over must be right…right?

And…they like all other protestants have never taken the time to learn the true meaning of the sacraments.

 

[RobHom]

Here is 3 real quick

1. Biblical Saving Faith- Faith for the Catholic (works must be added, the person must remain in a state of grace)

So, then as a “biblical christian”, for whom the bible is the inerrant word of God…you deny what James said?

• An individual must believe that the popes are infallible … ex cathedra.

And the problem with that would be? Maybe you are more qualified?

• One must believe that the Bishops of Rome have been given authority by Christ to rule the Church universal.

That has been a clear point for about 20 centuries now.

• One must be submitted to the Bishop of Rome in all areas of faith, morals, discipline and government of the Church.

Yes, and yet while many protestants deny that they do the same, do you not submit to the same to your preachers and governing bodies of the various denominations. Tell the truth now…

• The Roman Catholic Church alone has the right to interpret Scripture and its interpretations are infallible.

Not quite right. I am fully capable of reading and understanding, also known as “interpreting” the meaning of the words, however, where you err regarding the Church is "where there is a dispute regarding “interpretation”, the Church is the final arbiter.

• One must accept the Apocrypha as Scripture and as part of the Canon.

Yes, but I guess you think that Luther was empowered to change that?

• There is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church.

Obviously you have not read the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

• One must believe that the Roman Catholic sacraments are necessary for salvation and that there specific number is seven.

Yes…true, however not everyone experience all seven. All seven are not necessary, as some people will not marry, and many will never take holy orders (become Clergy or Nuns), You might want to better acquaint yourself with the sacraments and the justifications for them: newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

• An individual must repudiate the teaching that the imputed righteousness of Christ is the basis for justification.

Not quite.

• One must embrace the teaching that justification is not by faith alone but by human works cooperating with grace and by participation in the sacraments.

Yes. So whats your problem. As mentioned before…Faith without Works is DEAD. Its in the bible…right, thus it must be right.

• One must believe that human works cooperating with grace merit eternal life.

Almost. Depends on how you define “grace” or the “state of grace”.

• One must accept the teaching that water baptism is necessary for salvation as it is the instrumental means of regeneration even for infants.

Yes. Was not Jesus Christ himself “baptized” by John the Baptist “with water”?

• One must believe that the Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice for sin.

Can’t say I’ve ever heard that before, so I’d have to really question that.

• One must believe that in the eucharist the bread and wine is transformed into the literal body and blood of Christ at the words of consecration (Transubstantiation).

Can you “prove” its not?

• It is necessary to believe that confession of sins to a Roman Catholic priest

Beyond the fact that you are somewhat in error, and behind the times…the fact remains that there is “biblical” justification for confessing our sins to a priest.

• One must embrace the teachings of the immaculate conception and Assumption of Mary.

Yes. Again, can you disprove this.

• One must accept the Roman Catholic teaching on Purgatory.

Can you disprove this as well?

1. 1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God …a

The Catholic Church teaches that there is a myriad of mediator’s, Mary, Saints, Priests.

I as most Catholics, do not see the aforementioned as “mediators”. I think you are confused on the issue. … want to try again?

1. Mary had relations with Joseph and had Children.
   Matt 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

This is a dire misconception on the part of protestants. This is not what Catholics believe. I know that I was not taught that Mary had other children.

Seems your lack of knowledge concerning Catholicism is great.

 

[RobHom]

As to Catholic teachings regarding The Virgin Mary’s “perpetual” virginity, read here:

newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Mary’s perpetual virginity

In connection with the study of Mary during Our Lord’s hidden life, we meet the questions of her perpetual virginity, of her Divine motherhood, and of her personal sanctity. Her spotless virginity has been sufficiently considered in the article on the Virgin Birth. The authorities there cited maintain that Mary remained a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to her Divine Son, as well as after the birth of Jesus. Mary’s question (Luke 1:34), the angel’s answer (Luke 1:35, 37), Joseph’s way of behaving in his doubt (Matthew 1:19-25), Christ’s words addressed to the Jews (John 8:19) show that Mary retained her virginity during the conception of her Divine Son. [65]

As to Mary’s virginity after her childbirth, it is not denied by St. Matthew’s expressions “before they came together” (1:18), “her firstborn son” (1:25), nor by the fact that the New Testament books repeatedly refer to the “brothers of Jesus”. [66] The words “before they came together” mean probably, “before they lived in the same house”, referring to the time when they were merely betrothed; but even if the words be understood of marital intercourse, they only state that the Incarnation took place before any such intercourse had intervened, without implying that it did occur after the Incarnation of the Son of God. [67]

The same must be said of the expression, “and he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son” (Matthew 1:25); the Evangelist tells us what did not happen before the birth of Jesus, without suggesting that it happened after his birth. [68] The name “firstborn” applies to Jesus whether his mother remained a virgin or gave birth to other children after Jesus; among the Jews it was a legal name [69], so that its occurrence in the Gospel cannot astonish us.

Finally, the “brothers of Jesus” are neither the sons of Mary, nor the brothers of Our Lord in the proper sense of the word, but they are His cousins or the more or less near relatives. [70] The Church insists that in His birth the Son of God did not lessen but consecrate the virginal integrity of His mother (Secret in Mass of Purification). The Fathers express themselves in similar language concerning this privilege of Mary. [71]

For further explanation:

newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm

Hopefully you will take the time to properly educate yourself regarding the truths about the Catholic Church.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Bah.
There’s a common problem in every ideology and religion–
There’s always a very noisy fringe that gives everyone else the wrong idea. Someone can claim to be a true Catholic, or Protestant, or Muslim and not have any affiliation with the central organization of that group, if there is one. In something as big as a universal Church, you’re bound to end up with someone who is a bit too enthusiastic about “spreading the faith” without checking whether or not it’s actually part of the faith.

 

[Bishopite]

kaycee;2635916]When you see someone kneeling before a statue of Mary in prayer, would it cross your mind that that person might be praying to Mary, not the statue. Know one is arguing that Catholics pray to statues or crosses or relics directly. Do you deny that Catholics pray to Mary and the saints?

No, I don’t deny Catholics “pray” to Mary and the Saints what I deny is that Catholicism teaches anyone to worship a statue or Saint; that is pure rubbish. I pray to Mary and the Saints too, but I am very aware not to worship them. And you are denying the entymological meaning of the word “pray”; that its secondary meaning is to “ask” and it is in that sense that we are asking them to pray for us.
And to say that it crosses your mind when you see Catholics praying before a statue isn’t there problem but your preconceived notions, that without knowing their hearts or by not asking them if they are actually worshiping a statue you really don’t know their hearts. Don’t get me wrong here, I too often prejudge people also; sometimes I just look at a person and think he/she is one way, yet I find out later that they aren’t. I’m not saying anything about you that I don’t do myself.

Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary #2
O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy,
Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners,
we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

First of all this is NOT official Catholic writing, its a prayer to Mary.
Being a refuge to sinners simply means Mary asks Jesus for our help. If you could or would read some of the civil war letters from men to their wifes you would see them write things like “my dearest wife, whom I adore above all things” eeks people should say as they read it that man is worshiping his wife!
No, most people don’t bat an eye at those words because they realize that this soldier who is writing his beloved wife doesn’t adore in the sense of worshiping her above God, for perhaps in his letter he invokes God to help him survive to see his beloved wife which clarifies his usage of the word “adore.”

****We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; ****
all that we have, all that we love, all that we are.

To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls;
to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.

We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee,
and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction. …

Finally, we promise thee,
O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men,
to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult,

Many Protestants have a “devotion” to the Apostle Paul. Having a devotion is NOT an act of worship. And the usage of the word “cult” has a different meaning in our venacular than it did in prior generations which is many times how these prayers were formed and used today and it means a small group of devotees to something. Mary serves us in asking Jesus to help us.

in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart,
the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son,
in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven, so on earth.

Dont know about you, but when I ask a brother in Christ to pray for me, I am not quite as flattering to him.

I can only answer like the late Protestant contemporary
Christian song writer and singer Rich Mullins who said…Is it that Catholics revere Mary to much or Protestants too little!

My main Idea is that prayers to saints such as this one to Mary, is nothing like me asking a brother in Christ to pray for me.

Well, we Catholics NEVER pray outside the body of Christ and your brothers who pray for you didn’t birth the Savior of the world either.

 

[Mannyfit75]

So far my assumptions about Protestants false assumption of the Catholic Church prove true. I can tell by reading the Protestants insistence in our so called “false doctrines.”

They keep on** spreading lies**.

 

[Mimi]

I think the biggest problem is most Catholics really do not know what they believe past a few major tenents when talking to protestants about Catholic doctrine.

Since most evangelicals actually know what and why they believe, most of the time in great detail, they tend to assume that Catholics know what their church teaches as well.

At least that was my experience for 27 years and I doubt my experience is in the minority.

Hi,
I just jumped in here to say:
Now, with the advent of technology and access to Catholic Answers web site (and Catholic Radio), we have no excuse except laziness to keep us from knowing our faith.

I’m a book lover, and have found a wealth of print material also, not to mention magazines, both in print and online.

Lord Have Mercy
Christ Have Mercy
Lord Have Mercy

Mimi

 

[FrankLawrence]

Yes. Was not Jesus Christ himself “baptized” by John the Baptist “with water”?

To clarify that point, however, we need to note that what John the Baptist was doing was not the Sacrament of Baptism, as Catholics know it, today. The initiation of the Sacrament of Baptism was recorded in Matthew 28:19. While we believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation (which could include Baptism of desire or Baptism of Blood), we do NOT believe that Baptism in and of itself guarantees one’s salvation. See John 3:5 and realize, Kaycee, that it always refered to the Sacrament of Baptism. Writings of the early Church Fathers, attest to this.

 

[Mimi]

So, where does the doctrine of Sola-Scriptura come from? It was popularized by Martin Luther, and has led to thousands of denominations of people who believe different things, but all claim the same source of authority, the Bible. In reality, their sources of authority are their own comprehension skills that can be tainted and distorted by pride, prejudice, and false teachers. So Kaycee, I humbly ask that you please pray about this, re-examine what your church has been teaching, and realize that the Catholic Church has consistently held the same beliefs from the beginning of Christianity, and not even one of them contradicts the proper interpretation of the Bible.

I snipped most of this post, which I thought was an excellent reply.

Wouldn’t this doctrine qualify as a man-made tradition, along with sola fide?

Wasn’t Luther saying that the apostles got it wrong, that he knew better what Jesus taught, and most everyone else, for almost 1500 yrs got it (mostly) wrong? How arrogant is that?

Mimi

 

[justasking4]

I looked up the word “veneration” in the dictionary and this what it means honor something or somebody: to honor something or somebody as sacred or special

In the thesaurus it came up with these words:
revere, worship, adore, idolize, esteem, honor, respect, look up to, admire
antonym: disrespect

Worship means-religion treat somebody or something as deity: to treat somebody or something as divine and **show respect by engaging in acts of prayer and devotion **

In the thesaurus it uses these words–adoration, love, reverence, respect, devotion, adulation, veneration
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2004. © 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

So no matter how catholics would like to get around this issue of worshipping Mary and saints, there is no getting around it. Worship is going on.

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
So, where does the doctrine of Sola-Scriptura come from? It was popularized by Martin Luther, and has led to thousands of denominations of people who believe different things, but all claim the same source of authority, the Bible. In reality, their sources of authority are their own comprehension skills that can be tainted and distorted by pride, prejudice, and false teachers. So Kaycee, I humbly ask that you please pray about this, re-examine what your church has been teaching, and realize that the Catholic Church has consistently held the same beliefs from the beginning of Christianity, and not even one of them contradicts the proper interpretation of the Bible.

How do you as a catholic determine what the proper interpretation of a particular verse of the Bible is if your church has never defined them?

I snipped most of this post, which I thought was an excellent reply.

Wouldn’t this doctrine qualify as a man-made tradition, along with sola fide?

How so?

Wasn’t Luther saying that the apostles got it wrong, that he knew better what Jesus taught, and most everyone else, for almost 1500 yrs got it (mostly) wrong? How arrogant is that?

Mimi

No. Luther and the reformers were against the false teachings of the catholic church. They rightly accused the church of teaching doctrines and practices not taught by the apostles.

 

[estesbob]

I looked up the word “veneration” in the dictionary and this what it means honor something or somebody: to honor something or somebody as sacred or special

In the thesaurus it came up with these words:
revere, worship, adore, idolize, esteem, honor, respect, look up to, admire
antonym: disrespect

Worship means-religion treat somebody or something as deity: to treat somebody or something as divine and **show respect by engaging in acts of prayer and devotion **

In the thesaurus it uses these words–adoration, love, reverence, respect, devotion, adulation, veneration
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2004. © 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

So no matter how catholics would like to get around this issue of worshipping Mary and saints, there is no getting around it. Worship is going on.

I prefer to use the cathecism rather than a dictionary. if you can find any official Church teaching that we are to worship mary please provide us a link. I am always amazed at Protestants having the arrogance to TELL us what we BELIEVE.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

So no matter how catholics would like to get around this issue of worshipping Mary and saints, there is no getting around it. Worship is going on.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down. A thesaurus lists synonyms and antonyms. Veneration and worship have similar meanings, not identical ones.

 

[justasking4]

I prefer to use the cathecism rather than a dictionary. if you can find any official Church teaching that we are to worship mary please provide us a link. I am always amazed at Protestants having the arrogance to TELL us what we BELIEVE.

Huh? Do not catholics use the words “veneration” of the saints and Mary?
Its not arrogance to say this. There is plenty out there for anyone to study and see what catholics believe.

 

[estesbob]

How do you as a catholic determine what the proper interpretation of a particular verse of the Bible is if your church has never defined them?

Why would it matter?

BTW-which version of the Bible did the Apostles use? King James?

No. Luther and the reformers were against the false teachings of the catholic church. They rightly accused the church of teaching doctrines and practices not taught by the apostles.

Teachings that went unchallenged for 1,500 years. Was God realy so inept that he let his Church remain in error for 1500 years? Was he so cruel that he let millions go to hell before revealing to Luther et al the doctrine of Sola Fidelis?

 

[justasking4]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down. A thesaurus lists synonyms and antonyms. Veneration and worship have similar meanings, not identical ones.

The word veneration means something. As you say these words have similar meanings which tells us its worship. These are words that rightly come to mind when someone uses the word veneration and the like in a religious context.

Maybe a different word should be used.

 

[estesbob]

Huh? Do not catholics use the words “veneration” of the saints and Mary?
Its not arrogance to say this. There is plenty out there for anyone to study and see what catholics believe.

Since every Catholic you have run across has told you we do not worship Mary why do you continue to claim we do? BTW-is the Encrata divinnley inspired?

I am curious , BTW, as to why Protestants pray to Jabaz to bring them wealth? It appears to me they worship him. Is this not idolatry?

 

[guanophore]

I never understand this. Why do Protestants especially Ex-Catholics persume to know Catholic Church doctrines and dogma, but they don’t really know it.

1. They think we worship Mary, we don’t.
2. They think think our doctrines are invented doctrines but they aren’t.
3. They think the whatever the Popes says is infallible, when in fact it that infallibility is that the Holy Spirit preserves the Pope from teaching error when speaking moral and faith teaching
4. That the sacrifice of the Mass is re-sacrifice when it isn’t. It is to make presence the sacrifice at the cross which transcends time itself.

These are some false presumption of Protestants of what the Catholic Church supposedly believe. There of course countless others, which they think we believe and professed.

I noticed this too, especially here in CAF. When I left the Church, I believed many things that were not true about Catholicism. I think it is because people (myself included) are improperly catechized. I also left because I was emotionally and spiritually immature.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Huh? Do not catholics use the words “veneration” of the saints and Mary?
Its not arrogance to say this. There is plenty out there for anyone to study and see what catholics believe.

Veneration is different from worship. Veneration in terms of the saints is recognizing a person who has lived a holy life. Saints have done what we are trying to do, that is, reach heaven.Why shouldn’t we respect them for that? Don’t they deserve to be “honored as something sacred or special”?