Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

[Tantum_ergo]

I notice you don’t ask, “Is it true that a person WHO HAS OBSERVED ALL THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THIS BLESSING and dies wearing it. . .”

Why is that?

 

[justasking4]

I notice you don’t ask, “Is it true that a person WHO HAS OBSERVED ALL THE REQUIREMENTS FOR THIS BLESSING and dies wearing it. . .”

Why is that?

Didn’t notice it. Lets throw that in to. Is this true? Is it true that a person who dies wearing this scapluar will be set free from purgatory on the first Saturday after their death?

 

[patrick457]

Didn’t notice it. Lets throw that in to. Is this true? Is it true that a person who dies wearing this scapluar will be set free from purgatory on the first Saturday after their death?

If they do what was required of them. The scapular is not a get-out-of-jail-free card after all wherein you just wear it yet keep on sinning.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The **brown scapular **isn’t part of Catholic doctrine or dogmas. I don’t see the point of bring this up.

This would go in another thread. It does not belong here.

 

[estesbob]

The **brown scapular **isn’t part of Catholic doctrine or dogmas. I don’t see the point of bring this up.

This would go in another thread. It does not belong here.

Becuase he doenst understand Catholic teachings at all. He askes questions, for instance, about the brown scapular and purgatory yet he does not have a clue as to what Catholic teaching on purgatory is. He came to ridicule-not to learn.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Becuase he doenst understand Catholic teachings at all. He askes questions, for instance, about the brown scapular and purgatory yet he does not have a clue as to what Catholic teaching on purgatory is. He came to ridicule-not to learn.

I don’t know why Justasking can’t get past the scapular. He could just as easily ask about Fatima or any other private revelation. There’s not that much of a difference…

 

[po18guy]

I never understand this. Why do Protestants especially Ex-Catholics persume to know Catholic Church doctrines and dogma, but they don’t really know it.

1. They think we worship Mary, we don’t.
2. They think think our doctrines are invented doctrines but they aren’t.
3. They think the whatever the Popes says is infallible, when in fact it that infallibility is that the Holy Spirit preserves the Pope from teaching error when speaking moral and faith teaching
4. That the sacrifice of the Mass is re-sacrifice when it isn’t. It is to make presence the sacrifice at the cross which transcends time itself.

These are some false presumption of Protestants of what the Catholic Church supposedly believe. There of course countless others, which they think we believe and professed.

Former Catholics were likely poorly catechized. Knowing what we have, how on earth could you leave it? Protestants dislike what they think the Catholic church is-not what it actually is. Additionally, Protestants must spend 50% of their time being anti-Catholic and 50% being Christian. Catholics get to be Christian 100% of the time. We have no separation to explain.

Christ’s peace to all.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Didn’t notice it. Lets throw that in to. Is this true? Is it true that a person who dies wearing this scapluar will be set free from purgatory on the first Saturday after their death?

Unfortunately, those who have gone through Purgatory and are now in Heaven are unable to contact us, so nobody knows. It’s a mystery.

 

[estesbob]

I don’t know why Justasking can’t get past the scapular. He could just as easily ask about Fatima or any other private revelation. There’s not that much of a difference…

Becuase he thinks that if we dont all ambrace the brown scapulay it means the Catholic Church is a false Church!

 

[thecoach]

So, then as a “biblical christian”, for whom the bible is the inerrant word of God…you deny what James said?

 

[guanophore]

What does infalliblity have to do with the truth?

Infallibility is the charism that Jesus gave to the church that He would not allow it to fall into error (the HS will guide you into all truth, and I will be with you till the end of the age). It applies to the official teaching of the church on matters of faith and morals.

Is it because something is proclaimed infallibly you must believe it?

Yes, an infallible proclaimation is one which is considered a truth divinely revealed to the Church by the Holy Spirit.

If that is the case, there are still many other truth claims and practices that are not proclaimed infallibly true and yet people believe them to be true.

This is certainly the case. It is also true that some Catholics are uneducated, and don’t know the difference between private devotional practices that are permitted, and divinely revealed truths that are considered part of the deposit of faith to which we are all bound.

Are not these claims also true? Are they not also part of the fullness of the truth?

Some private revelations are only true, or most true, for the persons to whom they are revealed. For example, God revealed to Joseph in dream that he should get up, take the child and His mother, and flee to Egypt. Do all of us think we should make a pilgrimmage to Egypt, and remain there until God calls us home? However, it is “true” and is considered a valid revelation to Joseph.

For example, how do you know exactly what is the “fullness of the truth” and what is not? Since you call me ignorant, then teach me if you can.

I think you may be confusing “fullness of faith” with “fullness of truth”. The Catholic Church does not claim to teach the “truth” about everything that can be known by man, but only those matters of faith and morals revealed by God for our salvation.
We distinguish between what is necessary and what is not by following the Magesterium, that body appointed by God to discern these matters.

 

[guanophore]

While infallibly = correctly, non-infallibly does not = wrong. It just means the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire it. May be right, may be wrong; Catholics are not required to believe it is correct.

I don’t think this is right, either. I think there are many things inspiried by the HS that have not been considered infallible. For example, look at all the religious orders and apostolic missions! They are held up as good for the faithful, but only to those that are called to them. Mother Theresa used to send people away all the time because she determined they were not called to that apostolate. Just because something does not apply to everyone does not mean it is not inspiried by the Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

While infallibly = correctly, non-infallibly does not = wrong. It just means the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire it. May be right, may be wrong; Catholics are not required to believe it is correct.

I don’t think this is right, either. I think there are many things inspiried by the HS that have not been considered infallible. For example, look at all the religious orders and apostolic missions! They are held up as good for the faithful, but only to those that are called to them. Mother Theresa used to send people away all the time because she determined they were not called to that apostolate. Just because something does not apply to everyone does not mean it is not inspiried by the Spirit.

Are the teachings that are claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit the only ones that you know are true and required to believe?

I do not think this is the best way to characterize it, no. No “claims” are taught, but the official teaching is only what has been revealed by God. Furthermore, many things are inspired by the HS that are not part of the official teaching of the Church. The ones we are required to believe have been defined by the Magesterium.

 

[po18guy]

Infallibility is the charism that Jesus gave to the church that He would not allow it to fall into error (the HS will guide you into all truth, and I will be with you till the end of the age). It applies to the official teaching of the church on matters of faith and morals.

Yes, an infallible proclaimation is one which is considered a truth divinely revealed to the Church by the Holy Spirit.

This is certainly the case. It is also true that some Catholics are uneducated, and don’t know the difference between private devotional practices that are permitted, and divinely revealed truths that are considered part of the deposit of faith to which we are all bound.

Some private revelations are only true, or most true, for the persons to whom they are revealed. For example, God revealed to Joseph in dream that he should get up, take the child and His mother, and flee to Egypt. Do all of us think we should make a pilgrimmage to Egypt, and remain there until God calls us home? However, it is “true” and is considered a valid revelation to Joseph.

I think you may be confusing “fullness of faith” with “fullness of truth”. The Catholic Church does not claim to teach the “truth” about everything that can be known by man, but only those matters of faith and morals revealed by God for our salvation.
We distinguish between what is necessary and what is not by following the Magesterium, that body appointed by God to discern these matters.

Guanophore, you teach well.

“Originally Posted by justasking4
For example, how do you know exactly what is the “fullness of the truth” and what is not? Since you call me ignorant, then teach me if you can.”

Great wisdom revealed here, justasking4. Please do not confuse stupidity with ignorance, or lack of education. I am ignorant of and uneducated in much of the faith, but willing to learn. Are you willing to learn, too? Keep seeking the truth, and God will reveal it to you. But, as Saint Paul admonished, “Test everything. Retain what is good.”

Christ’s peace.

 

[justasking4]

Unfortunately, those who have gone through Purgatory and are now in Heaven are unable to contact us, so nobody knows. It’s a mystery.

Huh? What do you do when you are praying to some saint that may be in purgatory? Can they hear you there?

 

[justasking4]

The **brown scapular **isn’t part of Catholic doctrine or dogmas. I don’t see the point of bring this up.

This would go in another thread. It does not belong here.

There seems to be some confusion on this thread what doctrine and dogma means. Here are a couple of definitions.

This is a definition of doctrine:

rule or principle: a rule or principle that forms the basis of a belief, theory, or policy
ideas taught as truth: a body of ideas, particularly in religion, taught to people as truthful or correct

This is what dogma means:
RELIGION religious belief: a belief or set of beliefs that a religion holds to be true

As you can see by these definitions this topic does belong here. That being the case, discussing things like the Brown Scapular is appropriate and necessary if we are to understand catholic doctrines and practices.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Huh? What do you do when you are praying to some saint that may be in purgatory? Can they hear you there?

1. I hope you understand that when a Catholic “prays to” a saint it is exactly the same as asking a friend or church member to pray for me, and is not worship. If you’re unclear about Catholic terminology please start a new thread and I’ll be happy to explain it to you.
2. You’re operating on the assumption that I personally pray to saints (meaning asking them to pray for me to the Lord our God) when nothing in my previous post would indicate such.
3. Were I to ask the intercession of a saint on my behalf, it would be someone such as Mary, whom I know from Scripture is in Heaven.
4. In my post that you quoted, I said they cannot contact us to let us know they’ve arrived in Heaven. I wasn’t even talking about those in Purgatory but those who are now in Heaven, so really your question makes no sense.

If you’re interested in learning about Purgatory, you can read about it here and Scriptural support is found here. Happy reading, and God Bless.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

There seems to be some confusion on this thread what doctrine and dogma means. Here are a couple of definitions.

This is a definition of doctrine:

rule or principle: a rule or principle that forms the basis of a belief, theory, or policy
ideas taught as truth: a body of ideas, particularly in religion, taught to people as truthful or correct

This is what dogma means:
RELIGION religious belief: a belief or set of beliefs that a religion holds to be true

As you can see by these definitions this topic does belong here. That being the case, discussing things like the Brown Scapular is appropriate and necessary if we are to understand catholic doctrines and practices.

But the Brown Scapular is not part of Catholic Dogma! That link will show you a list of the “Fundamentals” of the Catholic Faith. Those and those ONLY are what the Church has declared, “If you want to call yourself a Catholic and not be a liar, you must believe these things.” Brown Scapulars are not on that list!!

Here is an excellent, no holds barred explanation of the Scapular for you from a bona-fide Catholic Nun with a blog.

 

[justasking4]

Pixie Dust;2666077]But the Brown Scapular is not part of Catholic Dogma! That link will show you a list of the “Fundamentals” of the Catholic Faith. Those and those ONLY are what the Church has declared, “If you want to call yourself a Catholic and not be a liar, you must believe these things.” Brown Scapulars are not on that list!!

It may not be a defined dogma but it is a doctrine by definition.
This is a definition of doctrine:
rule or principle: a rule or principle that forms the basis of a belief, theory, or policy
ideas taught as truth:

Here is an excellent, no holds barred explanation of the Scapular for you from a bona-fide Catholic Nun with a blog.

Did i read correctly that in this blog the nun said that catholics are to believe this when she writes:
The Pope extended the promise to the rest of us, meaning, the Church Militant…which means, we believe the same thing. He didn’t extend the promise to the separated brethren or the Wiccans.???

 

[justasking4]

I don’t know why Justasking can’t get past the scapular. He could just as easily ask about Fatima or any other private revelation. There’s not that much of a difference…

We need to discuss these things to if you are up to it.