Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

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Catholics don’t believe that they are saved by grace alone? It was my understanding that grace alone was one of the things we have in common. I think you’re mixing concepts here.
No sir. There is no mixing of concepts. We do believe very much in God’s grace, and that grace is much a part of salvation, however, we do not believe that eternal salvation is achieved solely by grace alone as many protestants do. Additionally, our beliefs encompass the writing of James…therefore…faith without works is dead, and faith without works has no grace. Its quite possible that my words are inadequate for the explanation, but I think you get the drift.
 
Once more displaying an iognorance of Catholocism. By the very definition a Saint can’t be in purgatory. You might want to read the cathecism before you make more foolish comments like that.
He may be one of those who belongs to a “religion” that liberally applies the word “saint” to anyone who is in agreement in his religion. Its a “context” borne of “linguistic revisionism” or rewriting Webster’s dictionary to suit ones beliefs. Thus his assessments are based on faulty assumptions and opinions.

True Saints at the time of their deaths were without sin, and were immediately taken to Heaven where they are today.
 
The purpose of the thread was not for you to demonstrate an example of the lies, kaycee. For example:

“You know very well that there are 20+ rites in the church, of which the Latin (Roman) is only one. The Church does NOT teach one must practice the Latin Rite in order to be saved.”

Umm, the Pope said just that recently.
 
guanophore;2638244:
The purpose of the thread was not for you to demonstrate an example of the lies, kaycee. For example:

“You know very well that there are 20+ rites in the church, of which the Latin (Roman) is only one. The Church does NOT teach one must practice the Latin Rite in order to be saved.”

Umm, the Pope said just that recently.
The Pope said one had to practice the Latin Rite to be saved. ??? Can you provide a link? This is the first Ive heard of it.
 
No sir. There is no mixing of concepts. We do believe very much in God’s grace, and that grace is much a part of salvation, however, we do not believe that eternal salvation is achieved solely by grace alone as many protestants do. Additionally, our beliefs encompass the writing of James…therefore…faith without works is dead, and faith without works has no grace. Its quite possible that my words are inadequate for the explanation, but I think you get the drift.
Maybe the words are getting in the way here.

I’m quite familiar with James; it would be my guess that I’ve read James more than I’ve read any other book in the Bible with the possible exception of Romans. I think James speaks primarily about faith and works, what it means to have faith and what relationship faith has to works. As we know, faith without works is dead (btw, I watched part of an old Billy Graham special in black and white last night on the tube…quoting James he was emphatic that a faith consisting of mere intellectual assent was no faith…a faith no better than that held by the demons…). Still, James speaks to faith and works more than to grace.

In contrast, by “grace alone” we believe that nothing we can do, no works, no faith, no good deeds, nothing can save ourselves. We are saved only by the grace of God. Absent the grace of God, we could have the faith of angels and the utmost in good works and neither would not save us.

To the best of my understanding, the Catholic Church does not teach otherwise. I believe that this is supported by Trent, the CCC, and recent efforts to bridge the theological gap between the Lutheran and Catholic Churches. For example, in Catholic Answers one discussion went as follows:

***Q: My Protestant friend says that the Catholic Church has finally changed its teaching on justification to line up with Luther’s interpretation. He bases this on section 15 of a document signed by the Church and the Lutherans.

A: Your friend is referring to the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification that was signed in October 1999 by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation. This is what §15 says:

“In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.”

Now let us look at what the Council of Trent said, in the decrees on justification, in the 16th century: “Canon 1. If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.”

In no way did the Catholic Church change its doctrines. After years of dialogue, the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation realized that there was a degree of agreement on justification between them that warranted a statement explaining that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between them. ***

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301qq.asp

Where our differences lie is in how we define and talk about faith. I do not believe that we use the term in the same way you do. Terminology sometimes highlights, sometimes minimizes, our theological differences.
 
No sir. There is no mixing of concepts. We do believe very much in God’s grace, and that grace is much a part of salvation, however, we do not believe that eternal salvation is achieved solely by grace alone as many protestants do. Additionally, our beliefs encompass the writing of James…therefore…faith without works is dead, and faith without works has no grace. Its quite possible that my words are inadequate for the explanation, but I think you get the drift.
Respectfully, you are mixing concepts for Protestants.

Our salvation is by grace alone.

That this is not the end of the story in no way negates the truth of that statement. Your statement implies that we must in some way earn our way to heaven for many Protestants.
 
The Pope said one had to practice the Latin Rite to be saved. ??? Can you provide a link? This is the first Ive heard of it.
No, she said that one does NOT have to practice the Latin Rite to be saved.
 
Oh yeah. A month or two ago the Vatican sent out a letter stating that the Catholic Church is the one true church established by Christ. That doesn’t mean that the RCC is the only way to be saved, though.
 
Ever heard of being washed in the blood of the Lamb?? I think I will rely upon his sacrifice, I don’t know what you will do.
Nella,
This requires thought and reflection. It may shock you, but yes I have been washed in the blood of the Lamb, as have all baptized Catholics. Salvation by the blood of the lamb actually began long before the advent of Christ (Exodus 12:1-13). The lamb’s blood preserved the Hebrews from God’s wrath. But, the shedding of blood was not enough. God commanded them to eat the body of the lamb. Have you done that? How do you do that? Christ Himself tells you (John 6). Do you do this? I pray you are right.

The bible is inspired by God, but is a tiny fraction of the life of Christ-little more than Cliffs Notes. However, it is apparently ALL you have of our Blessed Savior. Please read John 21:25. Done? Still feel satisfied that you know enough about Christ? Good for you if you do. I pray you are right.

Please explain Why Christ gave Peter the keys to the gates of heaven and the power to bind or loose sin. (Matthew 16:19) You can? I pray you are right.

Again, from Matthew 16:19, please explain how Peter was to know which sins to bind or loose, since he was not an omniscient God? Wouldn’t this mean that Christians had to tell him of their sins? No? Then how? I pray you are right.

In John 8:11, Jesus tells the woman caught in adultery to “Go, from now on do not sin any more” What if she did? Would she then be condemned to hell? Is there a limit to Jesus’ forgiveness? Or, did he leave His foregiving power with one who remained after He ascended (Matthew 16:19). Only one answer is correct. I pray you are right.

Are you either: incapable of sin, or do you believe that forgiveness is automatic each time you sin? You say that you can sin? OK then, if forgiveness is automatic, why did Christ command the woman in John 8 to sin no more? Can you go out murdering and be saved, as long as you silently plead forgiveness after each crime? I pray you are right.

Please reflect on these questions in your heart. You need not respond. Generations of Christians have reflected on exactly these issues. No one on these forums invented this stuff. We are simply passing on the faith that was passed on to us since Christ taught it to the Apostles (who passed it on).

Since we have all been washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb, why are you here? What is your purpose? God knows what is is. Would you tell us?

Praying for you.
 
Nella,
This requires thought and reflection. It may shock you, but yes I have been washed in the blood of the Lamb, as have all baptized Catholics. Salvation by the blood of the lamb actually began long before the advent of Christ (Exodus 12:1-13). The lamb’s blood preserved the Hebrews from God’s wrath. But, the shedding of blood was not enough. God commanded them to eat the body of the lamb. Have you done that? How do you do that? Christ Himself tells you (John 6). Do you do this? I pray you are right.

The bible is inspired by God, but is a tiny fraction of the life of Christ-little more than Cliffs Notes. However, it is apparently ALL you have of our Blessed Savior. Please read John 21:25. Done? Still feel satisfied that you know enough about Christ? Good for you if you do. I pray you are right.

Please explain Why Christ gave Peter the keys to the gates of heaven and the power to bind or loose sin. (Matthew 16:19) You can? I pray you are right.

Again, from Matthew 16:19, please explain how Peter was to know which sins to bind or loose, since he was not an omniscient God? Wouldn’t this mean that Christians had to tell him of their sins? No? Then how? I pray you are right.

In John 8:11, Jesus tells the woman caught in adultery to “Go, from now on do not sin any more” What if she did? Would she then be condemned to hell? Is there a limit to Jesus’ forgiveness? Or, did he leave His foregiving power with one who remained after He ascended (Matthew 16:19). Only one answer is correct. I pray you are right.

Are you either: incapable of sin, or do you believe that forgiveness is automatic each time you sin? You say that you can sin? OK then, if forgiveness is automatic, why did Christ command the woman in John 8 to sin no more? Can you go out murdering and be saved, as long as you silently plead forgiveness after each crime? I pray you are right.

Please reflect on these questions in your heart. You need not respond. Generations of Christians have reflected on exactly these issues. No one on these forums invented this stuff. We are simply passing on the faith that was passed on to us since Christ taught it to the Apostles (who passed it on).

Since we have all been washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb, why are you here? What is your purpose? God knows what is is. Would you tell us?

Praying for you.
Great post!
 
Respectfully, you are mixing concepts for Protestants.

Our salvation is by grace alone.

That this is not the end of the story in no way negates the truth of that statement. Your statement implies that we must in some way earn our way to heaven for many Protestants.
AMEN! The false doctrines of “sola scriptura” and “sola fide” , both of which are unbiblical, have once again polluted Christian thought. Thank you for clearing this up. Faith, good works and scripture are our gifts from God. Grace is strictly HIS.

“sola gratia” anyone?

Grace, not works. Grace, not faith. Grace, not scripture. 👍
 
AMEN! The false doctrines of “sola scriptura” and “sola fide” , both of which are unbiblical, have once again polluted Christian thought. Thank you for clearing this up. Faith, good works and scripture are our gifts from God. Grace is strictly HIS.

“sola gratia” anyone?

Grace, not works. Grace, not faith. Grace, not scripture. 👍
As far as I am aware, Protestants have been proclaiming sola gratia since the beginning. I had thought the Catholic Church had done the same, hence my confusion about the posts of some of the Catholics in this thread.
 
As far as I am aware, Protestants have been proclaiming sola gratia since the beginning. I had thought the Catholic Church had done the same, hence my confusion about the posts of some of the Catholics in this thread.
In our hurry (fury?) to post, some of us fail to proof-read :o Grace has always been the teaching. Of that, you may rest comfortably. I see that your faith journey has been intriguing. You are still seeking the fullness of truth, as are all loving Christians. Just be prepared to be shocked at where the Holy Spirit will lead you in the future. :bigyikes:

Christ’s peace be with you always.
 
In our hurry (fury?) to post, some of us fail to proof-read :o Grace has always been the teaching. Of that, you may rest comfortably. I see that your faith journey has been intriguing. You are still seeking the fullness of truth, as are all loving Christians. Just be prepared to be shocked at where the Holy Spirit will lead you in the future. :bigyikes:

Christ’s peace be with you always.
Thanks. 🙂
 
Once more displaying an iognorance of Catholocism. By the very definition a Saint can’t be in purgatory. You might want to read the cathecism before you make more foolish comments like that.
This is not a comment but a question. Can you point me to the specific reference in the catechism that says this?
 
Yes -IN HEAVEN!!! That is what Saint means. By the very definition they can not be in purgatory when we pray to them.JUST$KING commented we could end up praying to a Saint that was in purgatory- an utterly ridicoulus comment for anyone who knows what a Saint is …
Are catholic saints made here on earth or do they have to go through pugatory to achieve full sainthood?
 
In the catechism it states in paragraph 841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

I don’t quite understand this. How could there be salvation for Muslims since they reject that Christ was God in the flesh, died for our sins and rose again? To reject these things means that person cannot be saved.
 
In the catechism it states in paragraph 841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

I don’t quite understand this. How could there be salvation for Muslims since they reject that Christ was God in the flesh, died for our sins and rose again? To reject these things means that person cannot be saved.
Good question, and good to see you looking into the Catechism.

As it explains in the paragraph, Muslims possess some of God’s truth. Since they possess some of God’s truth, they factor in in some way to God’s plan of salvation. This doesn’t mean Muslims are saved; it simply recognizes that Muslims are not pagans.
 
And do you also state that there is no possibility for salvation for the Jews as well? How about Buddhists, Hindu, etc?
 
Good question, and good to see you looking into the Catechism.

As it explains in the paragraph, Muslims possess some of God’s truth. Since they possess some of God’s truth, they factor in in some way to God’s plan of salvation. This doesn’t mean Muslims are saved; it simply recognizes that Muslims are not pagans.
“Some truth” is not enough to save though. To possess salvation a person must believe that Christ died for our sins and rose again according the scriptures. (ICor 15:1-4) Remember also that the demons believe but they are not saved.
 
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