Why do Protestants presume to know Catholic doctrine and dogmas when they don't really know it?

[Ferdy_000]

And said it beautifully!

Welcome home.

Thanks

 

[po18guy]

Well, when I was young I used to get my doctrine from Nuns, but they were aren’t always charitable ( to their defense , I wasn’t easy), and eventhough this contributed to my “rebellious nature” towards our Church it took me several years or more to fully understand that some of the things we were taught were from not “perfect” teachers , then again who is perfect. But I , like a lot of the Catholics who fell away from the Church had no clear direction , either from our families or the Nuns. But as I got older ( and more mature in thought and reason ) I took responsibility for my sins against our Church . But I think that if you don’t have direction from your families/Catholic friends ( which in mine was weak) and combine that learning through uncharitable teachers ( laypeople or Nuns) and put that with the already rebelliousness of our hearts towards authority, and …wa la …you get “Protestant/Ex-Catholic”. I think to combat this and to defend our Church we need more charity in teaching, both from our families and from the Catechists . We must all get involved in bringing back our fallen brethren and praying for them and being the Catholic example to everyone who watches, otherwise we will see this over and over…Catholics , unsure about their faith and doctrine and hence easy prey for the nearest Protestant Church.

Oh by the way, I love my Catholic Church and faith , ( going on 2 years in returning ) now I understand more of it’s doctrine. I wouldn’t be the same without my faith in Jesus . My life is back on track! I know I’m not perfect either, I make mistakes but without Confession and direction to mold my conscience how else will I be able to attain true holiness . We also have the Sacraments , which help me heal through their graces , especially through the Holy Eucharist ( something I missed while I was the corner Protestant church . And I do believe what St. James said as well " Faith without works is dead", and St. Paul who said that “love covers a multitude of sins”.

Well , I’ve said my peace! :knight2:

Amen! Welcome home. Do Protestants think that Jesus was just filling time when he gave the discourse on His Body and Blood in John 6? We believe the whole bible, not the Cliffs Notes version.

Christ’s peace.

 

[AgnosTheist]

1. They think we worship Mary, we don’t.

Maybe because thats how they felt when they were Catholics. When I was Catholic it sure felt I was worshipping mary whenever I praise and pray to her. I believe its what theologians call the ‘worship of dulia’. Worshipping the saints are an indirect way of worshipping god?

 

[justasking4]

Teflon93;2676902]Why would it follow? On what basis do you presume it not to be true?

i didn’t say it wasn’t. If true what would follow?

Perhaps if you produce a saint fresh from Purgatory who wore the scapular and maintains he wasn’t released until Sunday, you would have a case.

Why would a catholic need this kind of support. It was said by Mary and endorsed by the pope. Isn’t that enough?

Until then, you have the exact same authority I do to make such a statement—which is to say, none.

Authority has nothing to do with something being true or not.

As we’ve told you time and time again, “fullness of truth” pertains to faith and morals,

Is there a offical statement from the catholic church itself that defines what the “fullness of the truth” is?

which is why we keep telling you that the scapular is not a dogmatic teaching and therefore not part of the “fullness of truth” of the Church. That does not make it untrue, however. You seem not to grasp the fact that while “infallible” is synonymous with “true”, “fallible” is not synonymous with “false.”

i have never said such a thing as this. But you do bring up another point though. What exactly is this “fullness of the truth”? Who determines it? Is there a list somewhere of the “fullness of the truth”?

That remains to be seen, doesn’t it?

 

[estesbob]

i have never said such a thing as this. But you do bring up another point though. What exactly is this “fullness of the truth”? Who determines it? Is there a list somewhere of the “fullness of the truth”?

Christianity as revealed by the Catholic Church. Since Jesus Christ and his Church are one and the same he determines it. The fullness of truth is not so much a list one reads- it a life of faith one lives- a life guided by our Lord and Savior via his church.

Being you have bought into an idea that truth can only be found by personal interpretation of Scripture you will never enjoy the fullness of truth until you abandon this doctrine. Then you can come to these forums with honest questions and people will bend over backwards to help you. If use truly seek the truth you’ll become Catholic, without a doubt.

One has to wonder why you came into these forums. Was it an attempt to convince us that Catholicism is wrong or is an attempt to convince yourself of that?

 

[justasking4]

Ummm, “Councils” are not infallible. We hold that the appointed successor to Peter, when addressing the entire church, then ONLY in the areas of faith and morals, is infallible. His opinion on the weather, or the latest game is as good as yours or mine.

Pope. Entire Church. Faith. Morals.

This is infallibility. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Christ’s peace.

You might want to go to the site New Advent and look up General Councils. It appears that councils can be infallible

 

[Ferdy_000]

Amen! Welcome home. Do Protestants think that Jesus was just filling time when he gave the discourse on His Body and Blood in John 6? We believe the whole bible, not the Cliffs Notes version.

Christ’s peace.

Thanks Brothas, it’s good to be back Home! :bowdown: Keep the Faith! :knight2:

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

i didn’t say it wasn’t. If true what would follow?

Why would a catholic need this kind of support. It was said by Mary and endorsed by the pope. Isn’t that enough?

Authority has nothing to do with something being true or not.

Is there a offical statement from the catholic church itself that defines what the “fullness of the truth” is?

i have never said such a thing as this. But you do bring up another point though. What exactly is this “fullness of the truth”? Who determines it? Is there a list somewhere of the “fullness of the truth”?

Firstly, time as we see it is a property of the universe in which we exist. When we die, our souls are not bound by the limits of this universe. In other words, in Heaven, time will have no meaning. Getting out of Purgatory by a certain Sunday is not really applicable because time as we know it will cease after we die.

But that is highly technical and even I can barely understand it.

Anyway… how did you get the idea that all of the truths of the universe could be written down? There could be no such thing as a “list of the fullness of the truth”

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Back to the title question of this huge thread,
yesterday I watched the “Paula White” program on TBN.
She had as her guest a preacher named “Doctor” Steve Munsey.
I would like to know where this man got his “doctorate,” because some of his remarks were just plain, well, idiotic.
For example, he claimed that prior to the Emperor Constantine, all Christians observed the JEWISH Feast Days regularly and received blessings from God for doing so. He then described Constantine, prior to 313 A.D., as being a persecutor and murderer of Christians (which he NEVER WAS), and then,
and THIS made me fall off my chair, the Reverend “Doctor” Munsey said that at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., Constantine forced the Christians to stop practicing the Jewish Feasts of the Mosaic Law AND, also in 325 A.D., forced the Church to adopt the GREGORIAN Calendar. His claim was that, up to this time, the entire Christian Church went by the Jewish Calendar. And Paula White, “anointed preacher” that she is, was oohing and aahing and her “spirit was bursting within” her at Munsey’s teaching.

The Gregorian calendar is named for Pope Gregory the Great who lived HUNDREDS of years after Constantine and the early Catholic Church NEVER observed the Jewish Feasts of the Mosaic Law as Munsey ridiculously asserted (he was especially referring to the Day of Atonement).

TBN, which is watched by MILLIONS of people, deceived millions of people with this broadcast.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[justasking4]

Tim Kirchoff;2678143]Firstly, time as we see it is a property of the universe in which we exist. When we die, our souls are not bound by the limits of this universe. In other words, in Heaven, time will have no meaning. Getting out of Purgatory by a certain Sunday is not really applicable because time as we know it will cease after we die.

How do you know there is no time in purgatory? Certainly the church in the past thought so.

But that is highly technical and even I can barely understand it.

Anyway… how did you get the idea that all of the truths of the universe could be written down? There could be no such thing as a “list of the fullness of the truth”

i hear this term a lot from catholics who berate protestants for being outside the catholic church and not having the “fullness of the truth”. This fullness is in relation to what the catholic church has that no other has. Since catholics make such claims i thought there must be some kind of list that tells them exactly what this “fullness of the truth” is. It could also be like the word Tradition and tradition. These words also are used a lot but its unclear to me what exactly these are. That’s another list i would like to see and study. So far i have not seen any.

 

[justasking4]

estesbob;2678111]Christianity as revealed by the Catholic Church. Since Jesus Christ and his Church are one and the same he determines it.

This has to be one of the most amazing things i have ever read. Christ and the catholic church are “one and the same”? Do you realize what you are claiming and follows from this? This would mean that Jesus Himself approved of the inquistions and other evils that the catholic church is responsible for.

The fullness of truth is not so much a list one reads- it a life of faith one lives- a life guided by our Lord and Savior via his church.

So it seems it could be anything.

Being you have bought into an idea that truth can only be found by personal interpretation of Scripture you will never enjoy the fullness of truth until you abandon this doctrine. Then you can come to these forums with honest questions and people will bend over backwards to help you. If use truly seek the truth you’ll become Catholic, without a doubt.

One has to wonder why you came into these forums. Was it an attempt to convince us that Catholicism is wrong or is an attempt to convince yourself of that?

 

[Jaypeeto4]

The Church and Christ ARE one and the same in a sense.
He is the Head, we are His Body, members of his flesh and of his bones.

When Jesus stopped Saul of Tarsus on the Damascus Road
while Saul was persecuting the CHURCH, Jesus said to him,
“Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME?” not, “why are you persecuting the Church?”

 

[justasking4]

The Church and Christ ARE one and the same in a sense.
He is the Head, we are His Body, members of his flesh and of his bones.

When Jesus stopped Saul of Tarsus on the Damascus Road
while Saul was persecuting the CHURCH, Jesus said to him,
“Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME?” not, “why are you persecuting the Church?”

If i follow you then, when catholics sin this means that Jesus to is sinning since you are members of His flesh and bone.
There is a close connection between Christ and His folllowers but that connection does not mean they are one and the same. To believe that would lead to all kinds of absurd conclusions.

 

[Teflon93]

If i follow you then, when catholics sin this means that Jesus to is sinning since you are members of His flesh and bone.
There is a close connection between Christ and His folllowers but that connection does not mean they are one and the same. To believe that would lead to all kinds of absurd conclusions.

It is not a sin to call people to Christ, nor to correct their errors.

Was it a sin when Martin Luther called for the death of 100,000 German peasants? Surely it was. And yet he claimed to speak with Christ’s mouth.

Christ himself passed a terrible judgment on the Sanhedrin, and destroyed the Temple in A.D. 70.

One must never think of Christ as being somehow tame. We should remember that the only thing we’re taught this carpenter’s son to have manufactured is the scourge with which he drove the moneylenders from the Temple.

The notion of harsh Old Testament God, kindly Christ is an ancient heresy. Christ both died for us and drowned the world.

He does not take the persecution of his Church lightly.

 

[ChadS]

This has to be one of the most amazing things i have ever read. Christ and the catholic church are “one and the same”? Do you realize what you are claiming and follows from this? This would mean that Jesus Himself approved of the inquistions and other evils that the catholic church is responsible for.

This quote has to be one of the most amazing things I’ve ever read. Jesus Christ did establish the Catholic Church. That does not make him responsible for other people’s sin. The Church is a divine institution but it is also a human institution. Maybe you should look into what the Catholic Church actually says about itself instead of throwing around half-baked ideas and falsehoods. You would do well to do some more reading rather than repeating 400 year old accusations.

ChadS

 

[po18guy]

Is there a offical statement from the catholic church itself that defines what the “fullness of the truth” is?

Basically, it is the deposit of faith that has been kept sacred by the “Church of Christ”, known to you as the Catholic church:

1. It still has the seven Sacraments (not just two) that Luther celebrated.
2. It still has Apostolic succession, how Luther was trained and ordained. Every Priest can trace his ordination back to one of the twelve Apostles.
3. It still has the complete bible-not the edited/censored Luther’s version.
4. It still has the Eucharist, like Jesus commanded us to eat in John 6.
5. It still drinks the Blood of Christ, like Jesus commanded us to drink in John 6.
6. It still has the Communion of Saints, as Luther prayed.
7. It compiled and has maintained the bible for almost 2,000 years-including every word in the version that YOUR church uses.

The foregoing are just some of the reasons why we call all Christians to unity in His body. Eternal life is that important. Can you see how much was lost in the “reformation”?

 

[estesbob]

How do you know there is no time in purgatory? Certainly the church in the past thought so.

Why would it matter?

i hear this term a lot from catholics who berate protestants for being outside the catholic church and not having the “fullness of the truth”. This fullness is in relation to what the catholic church has that no other has. Since catholics make such claims i thought there must be some kind of list that tells them exactly what this “fullness of the truth” is. It could also be like the word Tradition and tradition. These words also are used a lot but its unclear to me what exactly these are. That’s another list i would like to see and study. So far i have not seen any.

It really is not that Complicated:

Christ IS the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church IS the fullness of Truth. Outside the Church you no only settle for less than the fullness of Truth you also have an inferior relationship with Jesus Christ.

Funny how one can miss the big things while obsessing over little things like Brown Scapulars and random quotes from 2,000 years of Church documents.

 

[estesbob]

If i follow you then, when catholics sin this means that Jesus to is sinning since you are members of His flesh and bone.
There is a close connection between Christ and His folllowers but that connection does not mean they are one and the same.** To believe that would lead to all kinds of absurd conclusions.**

The delicious irony of this had me laughing until the tears rolled dwon my cheeks!

 

[Ferdy_000]

Basically, it is the deposit of faith that has been kept sacred by the “Church of Christ”, known to you as the Catholic church:

1. It still has the seven Sacraments (not just two) that Luther celebrated.
2. It still has Apostolic succession, how Luther was trained and ordained. Every Priest can trace his ordination back to one of the twelve Apostles.
3. It still has the complete bible-not the edited/censored Luther’s version.
4. It still has the Eucharist, like Jesus commanded us to eat in John 6.
5. It still drinks the Blood of Christ, like Jesus commanded us to drink in John 6.
6. It still has the Communion of Saints, as Luther prayed.
7. It compiled and has maintained the bible for almost 2,000 years-including every word in the version that YOUR church uses.

The foregoing are just some of the reasons why we call all Christians to unity in His body. Eternal life is that important. Can you see how much was lost in the “reformation”?

Amen! I couldn’t have said it better myself! This explains what we as Catholics believe , so it’s safe to assume the Protestants disagree on all accounts . The real question is why, don’t you agree? What’s the fundamental reason why you can’t see error in over 30000+ Protestant denonimations…? Why don’t you take a look at the way we practice Catholicism first hand and then you’ll be in better position to witness the Daily miracle of Holy Eucharist and other practices we Catholics are known to devote our faith to. As I said I’ve been to the Protestant side and even though the message was heartfelt and emotionally fed and even uplifting sometimes…something was missing. Starting with, tradition, accountability , then next a lasting commitment which I assume the Protestants don’t have…why else all the different denominations? I feel it’s our loyalty to God we all share in the above traditions that has kept us together through thick and thin…and that Christ first started it by “loving” us on that Cross, and in the garden, in the Eucharist He asked us to remember , and in being our example through sharing the countless “works” of sufferings with us as to heal our very souls and to keep us out of Hell. ( of course, He’s God and didn’t need to do “works” to achieve salvation but only to show us how to offer up our own sufferings for our sins and the sins of others)…There’s so many more beautiful things I can share about our Catholic Church , but for now , I simply invite you as a guest to our Church…Let God be the converter here.

 

[po18guy]

If i follow you then, when catholics sin this means that Jesus to is sinning since you are members of His flesh and bone.
There is a close connection between Christ and His folllowers but that connection does not mean they are one and the same. To believe that would lead to all kinds of absurd conclusions.

From the Protestant New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Ephesians 4:4-6

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

Christ, being God, is incapable of sinning. We comprise his mystical body on earth, as St. Paul preached. We can sin, and do. We are called to “be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect”, but we fail. That is why we have the Sacrament of reconcilliation-the power to forgive men’s sin on earth was given to Peter by Christ (Matthew 16:18-19). By the laying on of hands, that power has been handed down from Peter to Linus to succeeding Popes to Cardinals to Bishops to Priests for nearly 2,000 years. And, thank God!

An analogy: Luther did not fix the church’s flat tire, he replaced it with a compact spare, which has its limits.

Christ’s peace.