P
poche
Guest
If they think our gospel is different than theirs then maybe they haven’t read it.
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TULIPed
Guest
This is interesting. I’ve got a bunch of Catholic friends, and I’ve never heard this - I’m not saying you’re wrong (I’m not Catholic, so I wouldn’t presume to know your beliefs better than you), but it is a different take I would say based on discussions with them. How would you dovetail what you’ve said here with this from the RCC:
“1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.”
And do you have to follow the Ten Commandments exactly, or do you just have to do the best you can? And is it just the 10 commandments, or more. If its just the 10, why just the 10? Thanks.
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fhansen
Guest
The question doesn’t follow here.
Yes, as God draws us and we respond, with “the obedience of faith” to begin with but including others.
Apples and oranges. If pagans actually possess the love Jesus wanted He would’ve praised it, and they would all be automatically justified by it. But their’s was not the kind of love that moved them towards God. Jesus was speaking of a different kind and level: agape, love of God, neighbor, enemies, a supernatural gift. We’re here to come to recognizes our need for this kind of love in a world that sorely lacks it-when we finally meet it face to face in the person of the Incarnate Lord.
I’ve never heard the Church or anyone else say:
And while that sounds at first much like legalism, I understand where you’re coming from now-that we must be disposed towards God prior to entering fellowship with Him. Faith, especially, is a gift we must possess before justification and yet is one that’s increased or poured more fully into us at justification.
All righteousness is from grace: faith, works, virtues, obedience, contrition, et al. Either way the obedience that flows from love is the kind by which we’ll be judged. So, yes, obedience is necessary to enter heaven. Disobedience was Adam’s problem and God’s been patiently working with humanity ever since to bring us to a point where we’ll reverse his choice within ourselves. Which is why Scripture tells us that sinners won’t enter heaven. By what criteria otherwise does He judge us to be worthy?
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
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fhansen
Guest
If I may, in Catholicism everything that contributes to our justification and salvation comes by grace. And while we cannot possibly be saved unless God initiates, unless God draws and moves us, we can nonetheless still opt out, whether at first or later on down the road. Grace is not irresistible; the human will is never left out of the picture. So even though the disposition to turn to God is a gift, as is our justification itself and any works that we may do after being justified to merit eternal life as we work out our salvation with He who works in us, these things still must be present-and they won’t be if we resist. So, for justification the Church teaches:
"When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42"
Don’t know if that resolves your question or not but I understand where it came from either way.
"When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42"
Don’t know if that resolves your question or not but I understand where it came from either way.
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TULIPed
Guest
I know and understand where you’re coming from brother. I’m more interested though in where our friend @De_Maria is coming from.
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fhansen
Guest
I know, and I was trying to address that. Not necessarily satisfactorily tho so I’ll wait to hear more myself.
J
Justin_Mary
Guest
Enjoying your conversation. I’m learning a lot.
Recently I’m coming to understand what you are saying here. Our faith can truly be seen in our actions, the choices we make. The more faith I have in God, the more I am able to trust Him & put aside my selfish motives & so act from pure love of God.
But yes, like you said. It’s that little bit of faith that turns one towards baptism, or in my case confirmation. Not able to keep the Ten Commandments as Jesus puts it, but definitely contrite & sorrowful that I cannot.
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De_Maria
Guest
I don’t know how deeply you get into Doctrinal discussions with them, but here it is from the quintessential Catholic Teaching on the matter:
Trent VI, chapter VI
You probably know that the Council of Trent is the one gathered to combat and denounce Protestant errors.
*Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, *
As I understand that portion, it means that, God gives men the grace of conversion. When they cooperate with this grace, they conceive faith and begin to move towards God believing His Word to be true and that He keeps His promises. It continues.
*through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, *
They come to understand that Jesus Christ died upon the Cross to save sinners. And acknowledging that they are sinners in need of salvation, they throw themselves upon the mercy of God.
are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.
Now, having a hope of salvation, they turn to God and seek His justice and begin to change their lives and live righteously, detesting all sins and all that is against God’s will. (Now, this is what I interpret as living according to the Commandments. Because sin is transgression of the Law.) Notice that this must be done before Baptism. And then, they must determine that they will seek baptism and live a new life based upon the Commandments of God.
Show that to your Catholic friends.
cont’d
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De_Maria
Guest
cont’d
I don’t see a difference. But maybe because the order is somewhat inverted. Let’s see.
“the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God,” (Trent VI, Ch V, see above link)
Still from the same chapter.
through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification,
the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. (Trent VI, Ch VII)
“1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.”
I don’t see a difference. But maybe because the order is somewhat inverted. Let’s see.
- Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God,
“the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God,” (Trent VI, Ch V, see above link)
- his call, his vocation, to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
Still from the same chapter.
through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification,
- to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. (Trent VI, Ch VII)
- Our justification comes from the grace of God.
Do the best you can. Ultimately, God is our judge.
It is more. It is the Law of love. Love fulfills the Law, thus love fulfills the Commandments.
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De_Maria
Guest
Thanks.
Why not? What are you doing right now, that is violating the Ten Commandments?
J
Justin_Mary
Guest
Lot of deceit in my industry. I know that I should be honest about everything & everything will work out, but I don’t believe it enough to be 100% honest.
Kinda like selling a car. A salesman says what he feels needs to be said, allows a prospect to believe whatever needs to be believed to close the deal.
Like that salesman I could trust God to provide & just be 100% honest, or I can “help” the prospect believe whatever needs to be believed to close the deal today.
I generally choose the less virtuous of the two.
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De_Maria
Guest
Ok, we agree.
You’re right. You said that my statement did not agree with Catholic Teaching. You have changed the subject over and over and not pointed out where my statement deviates from Catholic Teaching.
Start another thread and invite me to discuss what Jesus said about love. Because Jesus never said that actions in love or claims of love, automatically justify. So, you’re in error on that point, as well. But that’s a different subject. Where do you see me deviating from Catholic Doctrine on the subject of soteriology.
That’s in Trent. Let me show you.
Trent VI, chapter VI
*Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, *
As I understand that portion, it means that, God gives men the grace of conversion. When they cooperate with this grace, they conceive faith and begin to move towards God believing His Word to be true and that He keeps His promises. It continues.
*through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, *
They come to understand that Jesus Christ died upon the Cross to save sinners. And acknowledging that they are sinners in need of salvation, they throw themselves upon the mercy of God.
are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God.
Now, having a hope of salvation, they turn to God and seek His justice and begin to change their lives and live righteously, detesting all sins and all that is against God’s will. (Now, this is what I interpret as living according to the Commandments. Because sin is transgression of the Law.) Notice that this must be done before Baptism. And then, they must determine that they will seek baptism and live a new life based upon the Commandments of God.
Do you disagree?
cont’d
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De_Maria
Guest
cont’d
Do you understand the concept that we don’t work our way into heaven?
Do you understand that we don’t judge ourselves?
It is God’s judgment which matters. We can deceive ourselves. See Matt 7:21. We could think we are the best people in the world. But God might think we are self righteous Pharisees.
Does that mean you now agree and no longer believe that I am in error?
The question is besides the point.
Do you understand the concept that we don’t work our way into heaven?
Do you understand that we don’t judge ourselves?
It is God’s judgment which matters. We can deceive ourselves. See Matt 7:21. We could think we are the best people in the world. But God might think we are self righteous Pharisees.
You need to also highlight, “at the beginning of conversion”. This is a reference to the “call” to convert. That grace is unmerited.
Yep.
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De_Maria
Guest
Hm. That’s tough. I wasn’t talking about that, though. I was getting at the fact that you’re probably sitting at a computer studying the Word of God and focusing on God’s will. Thus, at that very moment, you were not violating any of the Ten Commandments. You were fulfilling them.
Now, continue doing that and you will be saved.
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fhansen
Guest
I’m not intending to be a grand inquisitor here, just to be clear on what the Church teaches. I’ll start another thread if you like. Otherwise, before I render my verdict-or indict myself for that matter
-can you tell me how this might tie into the discussion of Rom 2:13? I believe that may’ve come up on this or another thread.
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De_Maria
Guest
Do you remember what you were objecting to?
Fine with me.
As I remember it, you claimed that men could not keep the Ten Commandments before they are justified in Baptism. Romans 2:13 says that men must keep the Law, which is another way of saying the Ten Commandments, before God justifies them.Otherwise, before I render my verdict-or indict myself for that matter
Ok.
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TULIPed
Guest
As well as they can right? Are we - for lack of a better term - graded on the curve?
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De_Maria
Guest
Lol. What’s wrong? Are you angry because our God is merciful but Calvin’s God condemn’s people from their birth?
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TULIPed
Guest
No - you said we have to keep the 10 commandments as well as we can before we get justified. So I’m wondering how well we have to do. Do you have to keep them all equally well? How long do you have to keep them before you get justified?
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De_Maria
Guest
Then you haven’t been paying attention. Do you remember the part where I said that God is the Judge? If you want to ask Him if He grades on a curve, be my guest.
Here’s what I know. The righteous Jews of the OT were supposed to keep the Teh Commandments. They did their best. God still saved them. But they didn’t go to heaven until Jesus died upon the Cross.
We are still supposed to keep the Ten Commandments. There are many Saints who have done so successfully, the Church has canonized them. But, the rest of us aren’t doing much better than the Jews. But, I put my hope in God’s mercy.
Whereas, Calvin’s God doesn’t give room for mercy. He condemns people from birth. Perhaps from conception. Double predestination. Do you deny it?
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