Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[Daniel_Marsh]

Build a strawman.

Burn it down.

Ooh what fun.

:yawn:

And, clearly you can’t read.

Go open the book of Isaiah, he is contrasting heaven and hell in that text. And that scripture plainly teaches that heaven is a land very far away.

Isaiah 33

14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

16He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold **the land that is very far off. **

18Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

19Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

20Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

21But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

22For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

No, you (they) look at parodies of Catholic worship that they have been taught by people either ignorant or malicious (often both). If they actually looked at Catholic worship they would hear God’s name in one form or another invoked constantly. This accusation is the equivalent of running five dozen stoplights and claiming one didn’t see any of them, not a single one.

Mike you are speaking Gibberish, go back and read the full post in context, this post of yours looks silly at best.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Have you ever depended on your parents? … and whom your parents depended on?

Have you ever asked them to pray for you?

It is clear to me at this point NO ONE IN THIS THREAD CAN READ IN CONTEXT, therefore you have lost all priviage to try to communicate with me because I am now ignoring the polemics of this site.

BYE

 

[Teflon93]

It is clear to me at this point NO ONE IN THIS THREAD CAN READ IN CONTEXT, therefore you have lost all priviage to try to communicate with me because I am now ignoring the polemics of this site.

BYE

Well, this is one post which doesn’t seem to require much context!

 

[Cat]

When I attended a Pentecostal service, I started keeping track of who went down for altar calls. You would see the same people go down, week after week, no matter how ridiculously specific the pastor was in his call. I don’t believe all these people were guilty of such a panoply of sins, week after week. I think they were simply trying to recapture the emotion of their “born-again” moment, like a heroin user forever chases his first fix. They had to—the pastor told them all the time that if they weren’t 100% certain they were saved, they weren’t.

This is the trouble with theology by subtraction—it’s unnatural. For most of us, religious fervor ebbs and flows. If your theology holds that it must always flow, you’re in for a rough ride at ebb tide.

I recently had a theory about this.

As Catholics, we know that we are to receive Jesus often in the Eucharist, the Spiritual Food that satisfies the hunger in our souls.

I think that many Protestants are starving for Eucharist, but they don’t know it. In an attempt to satisfy that hunger, they “accept Jesus into their hearts” or “rededicate themselves to Jesus” many many times. It’s like an “imitation” of receiving Him in Eucharist.

 

[Contarini]

And, clearly you can’t read.

Go open the book of Isaiah, he is contrasting heaven and hell in that text. And that scripture plainly teaches that heaven is a land very far away.

No, it doesn’t teach that plainly at all. The Hebrew is “eretz marhaqim.” The word “marhaqim” means “distances,” so it could mean a land that is far away. But my Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon (and both the NRSV and NIV) interpret it to refer to distant boundaries–a land of wide extent. This seems to make more sense in context.

I’m not sure about the “everlasting burnings”–they could refer to judgment, but they could also simply refer to God’s presence, which is described in Scripture as a blazing fire. Perhaps the difference is not that great!

It does not appear to me that any part of the OT is interested in “heaven” as a “place” where the blessed go. I’m not really sure that the NT is either. The whole concept is arguably unbiblical. N. T. Wright (no friend of the Catholic doctrine of the communion of saints) says that heaven is where God is, and that the Biblical picture (Rev. 22) is that heaven will come down to earth, not that we will “go to heaven.”

At any rate, it might be true that the abode of the glorified saints was “very far away” in some sense without that having any necessary relevance for the question at hand. In other words, the exegesis is strained and stretched six ways from last Friday.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

It is clear to me at this point NO ONE IN THIS THREAD CAN READ IN CONTEXT,

With yourself clearly the worst offender, as your exegesis of Isaiah 33 shows!

Edwin

 

[NotWorthy]

Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Christians pray for the dead regularly and publicly.

Edwin

Thanks Edwin! We don’t get many of ya’ll down here in southeast Texas!!!

My bad!

 

[rlg94086]

So, whos’ prayer is best?

That of two persons of the Trinity who are God, whose prayers are in perfect alingment with the Will of God the Father or the prayers of very immature saints who are praying in contradiction to God’s will? Even if “saints” in heaven are praying the best they know how, their prayers can not live upto the prayers of the Holy Spirit, nor of those of Jesus himself.

That question is the ultimate example of immaturity and ignorance. As Catholics, we pray to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and for the intercession of the saints…just as we pray for each other hear on earth.

When I wasn’t a Catholic, we also prayed for each other here on Earth…why would we do that since the person could pray for themselves? What good are our prayers?

 

[PetersKeys]

We are all judged by what we know, what we learn, our ability to learn and also by what we reject. The Catholic Church offers the most complete Truth to follow. However, there will be many Christians, and Jews and Muslims and even some LDS who will enter, passing some catholics who disdain others for their beliefs

You realize this is against what the Church has stated. Which clearly states that only by Christ can we get to heaven

If jews and muslims and other religions are getting to heaven then what Christ did on the cross means nothing.

The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ.

 

[emeraldisle]

Since all of the verses that we both quoted are true, clearly faith requires works and works require faith for us to be saved. When one is highlighted in a verse, it does not discount the other. This is why the doctrine of Sola Fide is completely unbiblical. You have to take the whole of scripture not just one verse out of context.

Yes all of Gods written word is true and God clearly teaches us in the whole of His written word that saving faith is in Christ Jesus alone, period.

.

 

[Contarini]

You realize this is against what the Church has stated. Which clearly states that only by Christ can we get to heaven

But states just as clearly that people who are not Christians can be saved by Christ in a mysterious manner. See Dominus Iesus 21.

If jews and muslims and other religions are getting to heaven then what Christ did on the cross means nothing.

Lumen Gentium, Dominus Iesus, and your Catechism say otherwise. Your attitude is, frankly, a petty and jealous one. Jesus died for everyone. The salvation you receive through Christ is not lessened by being shared with others.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Thanks Edwin! We don’t get many of ya’ll down here in southeast Texas!!!

My bad!

We’re there. Just not as noisy as some others!

Given that one of the few “Anglican Use” parishes is in Houston, I would guess that there are a number of Anglo-Catholics in that part of Texas, but I could be wrong.

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

But states just as clearly that people who are not Christians can be saved by Christ in a mysterious manner. See Dominus Iesus 21.

This point is often taken too far by non-Catholics (when it isn’t being taken too far by cafetaria Catholics). God being omnipotent, He can of course save anyone for any reason.

And yet He indicates that He expects more of us, that what we do does matter in our salvation. The apostles weren’t being paranoid about the prospect of not making it through the Narrow Gate; they believed Christ, and knew the importance of being part of his visible body and in communion with Peter.

Lumen Gentium, Dominus Iesus, and your Catechism say otherwise. Your attitude is, frankly, a petty and jealous one. Jesus died for everyone. The salvation you receive through Christ is not lessened by being shared with others.

Edwin

Well, there’s some charity!

We are not Catholic because the Church is some sort of club. We are Catholic because the Church is that which Christ himself founded, and in which he abides. It was frankly a lot easier to be Protestant, with many more choices of community, and much less expected of me.

You can argue “Jesus died for everyone” with the Calvinists, they of the far more clubby view of salvation. The Catholic belief is different, recognizing Christ’s atonement for mankind as a call for us to join the true Church. Are there those who have not become Catholic who will be saved? Surely—Moses and Elijah were, as the Transfiguration demonstrates. They were also invincibly ignorant, having served God before He instituted the Church.

Can anyone in the age of that Church bet on such invincible ignorance? I wouldn’t want to----but then I joined the Church.

Will all Catholics be saved? No, the Narrow Gate is still narrow, and many who were once true Catholics, as the Corinthians, will fall away, seduced by the empty promises of charismatic heretics.

Is it petty and jealous to defend Truth? I don’t think it is. Scripture certainly seems to say it isn’t, with prophet after prophet standing for Truth despite who they offend or discomfort.

Relativism being what it is, of course, some people simply can’t abide Truth. Why, they probably even cringe at the capitalization of it!

 

[rlg94086]

Yes all of Gods written word is true and God clearly teaches us in the whole of His written word that saving faith is in Christ Jesus alone, period.

And it is because of that saving faith that I receive His Body and Blood in the Holy Sacrament, as He taught. It is because of that saving faith, that I listen to my bishops, as St. Paul instructs. It is because of that saving faith that I confess my sins, since Christ gave our clergy the power to bind and loose throuth Apostolic Successsion.

I’m certain that your faith, and God-given ability to reason, will eventually lead you to the Church.

 

[emeraldisle]

emeraldise, remember, I spent over 40 years in some of of the best evangelical churches in the U.S. Evelyn Christenson was my pastor’s wife. Gary Smalley was my associate pastor. John Ortberg was one of my youth group buddies. Steve Douglass was a member of my church.

Do these names mean anything to you? What they should mean is orthodox evangelical Protestant teaching that sells books and packs out seminars.

I’m interested in what God says in His written word, so I’m not as interested in names as I am in knowing and obeying Gods Truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit from the Scriptures. Also can I remind you that Judas Iscariot was under the teaching of the greatest teacher of all the blessed Lord Jesus and did he obey His teaching? A person who knows Gods Truth in His written word should obey it.

I know very well what evangelical Protestants teach about their “position in Christ” and what they actually practice in real life. Oh, do I ever know. It’s one of the many reasons I left the Protestant church and became Catholic.

Sadly some people don’t practice what they profess to believe but are all the people in the Catholic Church living godly lives?

The teaching that we “should” want to thank God through our good works is nonsense. It does not work that way in real life because it is "feelings-based.

Christians are not robots, they have “feelings” and this is good.

What about the women who anointed Jesus’ feet with the alabaster jar of perfume(Luke 7), was she expressing her love and thanks to Jesus through this deed? Didn’t the Lord Jesus say, “he who has been forgiven little loves little”, Luke 7:47. All Christians have been forgiven much, so shouldn’t they be so thankful to God for His mercy and forgiveness and should they not want to do the good works that please God and give glory to Him?

Position just doesn’t mean anything to human beings. You’ve studied the Old Testament. The children of Israel were God’s chosen people, the apple of His eye, and yet they constantly fell away from Him and acted like prostitutes. It didn’t matter that God performed miracles for them, gave them food and water in the wilderness, and sent them prophets and kings–they didn’t feel like obeying Him and they followed their feelings.

How many married people do you know who don’t seem to realize that they are MARRIED?! They act like single people, spending money and running out on their spouses. Their married “position” does not make them want to “act married” out of love and gratefulness. They follow their feelings and act like jerks.

People disobeying what God says doesn’t change His Truth, a Christians “position” is completely dependent upon what Christ Jesus has done on the cross. Why did Peters faith not fail(his “position” in Christ), well it didn’t fail because the Lord Jesus prayed for it not to fail. Why is a Christians “position” secure because it’s in Christ Jesus and what He did on the cross. Peter denied Christ but his faith didn’t fail(his “position” in Christ). Christians sin but will their “position” which is in Christ fail? No it won’t because Christ Jesus will never lose any of His sheep.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

Have you noticed that books about “spiritual discipline” are becoming very popular in Protestant circles? Christians are realizing that they do not “feel” thankful at all most of the time, and they are seeking a way to discipline themselves to do the will of God even if they are not “feeling” the love of God.

This is why the Lord Jesus commanded all Christians to remember His death on the cross so that they should never forget what He has done for them and so remain forever thankful.

.

 

[Teflon93]

A person who knows Gods Truth in His written word should obey it.

Precisely:

John 6:

47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48: I am that bread of life.
49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53: Then Jesus said unto them, **Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. **
58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59: These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69: And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71: He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

and

Luke 6:

46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

It is a common theme.

Sadly some people don’t practice what they profess to believe but are all the people in the Catholic Church living godly lives?

Where precisely in human history have any grouping of God’s people ALL lived godly lives? Were that the standard, the Apostles themselves were no Christians, for Judas Iscariot betrayed them all, as you noted. Moreover, Jesus knew he would, as John 6 demonstrates. Christ didn’t see fit to winnow out Judas before he did the terrible damage he did.

As Paul notes, apostolic succession is a requirement for valid teaching, not the holiness of the taught.

Christians are not robots, they have “feelings” and this is good.

This is a red herring and that is bad.

Feelings become problematic when one insists that they are necessary for worship, or to be a Christian. Stoking feelings is the purpose of entertainment. Stoking holiness is the purpose of worship. Too many “churches” confuse the two, which is why I get flyers for 80s-themed worship services and the like.

People disobeying what God says doesn’t change His Truth, a Christians “position” is completely dependent upon what Christ Jesus has done on the cross. Why did Peters faith not fail(his “position” in Christ), well it didn’t fail because the Lord Jesus prayed for it not to fail. Why is a Christians “position” secure because it’s in Christ Jesus and what He did on the cross. Peter denied Christ but his faith didn’t fail(his “position” in Christ). Christians sin but will their “position” which is in Christ fail? No it won’t because Christ Jesus will never lose any of His sheep.

28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

Christians not being robots, as you allude above, does that mean the sheep has no choice in the matter? The sheep may not stray? That doesn’t seem consistent with a Narrow Gate, does it?

The Catholic would note that Peter didn’t fail because he repented and returned to the fold, as the Prodigal Son did. Had he went his merry way, as he could have chosen to do, as all of the children of Adam do, things would have been tragically different.

This is why the Lord Jesus commanded all Christians to remember His death on the cross so that they should never forget what He has done for them and so remain forever thankful.

.

He required a bit more than that, as John 6 demonstrates, and indeed his requirement instantly divided the apostles, many falling away.

Many fall away still.

 

[fdmilkis]

Yes all of Gods written word is true and God clearly teaches us in the whole of His written word that saving faith is in Christ Jesus alone, period.

.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith [in Christ] alone

 

[Mach1Man]

vern humphrey;3634117]You put your finger right on it – it’s basic insecurity. Deep down, they know they haven’t got it, and we have. And they hate us for it.

First of all. it’s this very same arrogant, pompous attitude that causes our differences to inflate.

Second, I am in no way insecure about my relationship with the Lord.

Third, deep down I know that I’m a Christian and am saved by the blood of Christ.

forth, I know that there some out there that feel that Catholics aren’t saved, but I also know that there are some Catholics that feel that I’m not saved. Your own catechism says that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church or that the only way I might make it is because of my ignorance, now how does that sound?.

Lastly, the only thing I hate is attitudes like yours that obviously come from satan.

 

[emeraldisle]

Precisely:

John 6:

So you believe the following Scripture is to be interpreted literally?

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. John 6:35

Also you forgot to highlight verses 61 & 63 of John 6.

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

**61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? **62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. John 6:53-63

Christians not being robots, as you allude above, does that mean the sheep has no choice in the matter? The sheep may not stray? That doesn’t seem consistent with a Narrow Gate, does it?

Do Christians sin, would “robot” Christians sin??

The Catholic would note that Peter didn’t fail because he repented and returned to the fold, as the Prodigal Son did. Had he went his merry way, as he could have chosen to do, as all of the children of Adam do, things would have been tragically different.

Are you suggesting that Jesus was lying when He said to Peter that I have prayed that your faith will not fail?

.