Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[richardwy]

Ignorance.

I’ve read many of the posts in this thread. When any folk say “Catholicism leads to hell . . . because . . .” they get the “because” wrong. They say Catholicism is .

It’s just flat out erroneous.

Now comes the tussle when the question “why do they get it wrong?” is asked.

 

[Teflon93]

So you believe the following Scripture is to be interpreted literally?

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. John 6:35

Scripture is always to be interpreted on multiple levels, not as, say the Fundamentalists do by insisting on literal interpretations in some places and only figurative interpretations of John 6. Scripture is to be read in context, which is why I tend to quote large passages, not a verse here and there.

The Apostles were instructed to go without supplies, relying on the charity of others. They didn’t hunger or thirst, but were fed by their brothers and sisters. There’s one literal interpretation.

We are born hungering and thirsting for God—Christians have Him, in the form of the blessed Eucharist, nourishment for body and soul. There’s your literal and figurative interpretation.

Also you forgot to highlight verses 61 & 63 of John 6.

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

**61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? **62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. John 6:53-63

Yes, they are—but the words Christ spoke are contained above, and refer to the Eucharist. How do you explain the people leaving, they whom had heard Christ speak the words of the Gospel before? What had changed?

I suggest searching the Bible for other instances where eating flesh is mentioned—it’s an eye-opener.

Do Christians sin, would “robot” Christians sin??

Question with a question. Was my question that hard?

Christians do sin, you can see why Paul exhorts his brothers to repent and return to the fold. “Robot” Christians sinning, or turning away from God, may indeed be possible if Pharaoh’s hardened heart is any indication.

Are you suggesting that Jesus was lying when He said to Peter that I have prayed that your faith will not fail?

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No, Christ did indeed pray for Peter as he said and Christ doesn’t lie.

Do you think Christ was lying when he said that those who do not eat his flesh and drink his blood have no life in them?

Do you think Christ lied when he promised to found his Church upon Peter, renaming him in the process to mark the occasion?

Do you think Christ lied when he said he would abide with the Church always?

 

[Teflon93]

Now comes the tussle when the question “why do they get it wrong?” is asked.

Because they live in an envelope of cognitive dissonance created for them by the Reformers and have yet to escape?

 

[jmcrae]

Because they live in an envelope of cognitive dissonance created for them by the Reformers and have yet to escape?

Gold star.

 

[rlg94086]

First of all. it’s this very same arrogant, pompous attitude that causes our differences to inflate.

Second, I am in no way insecure about my relationship with the Lord.

Third, deep down I know that I’m a Christian and am saved by the blood of Christ.

forth, I know that there some out there that feel that Catholics aren’t saved, but I also know that there are some Catholics that feel that I’m not saved. Your own catechism says that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church or that the only way I might make it is because of my ignorance, now how does that sound?.

Lastly, the only thing I hate is attitudes like yours that obviously come from satan.

Is that really necessary?

 

[emeraldisle]

The Apostles were instructed to go without supplies, relying on the charity of others. They didn’t hunger or thirst, but were fed by their brothers and sisters. There’s one literal interpretation.

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. John 6:35

Jesus said “he who comes to me” & “he who believes in me”, this means anyone who comes to Jesus or who believes in him. So a literal interpretation of this verse would mean that all Christians will never go hungry and they will never be thirsty. Also the **Apostle **Paul wrote the following;

in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— 2 Corinthians 11

Yes, they are—but the words Christ spoke are contained above, and refer to the Eucharist. How do you explain the people leaving, they whom had heard Christ speak the words of the Gospel before? What had changed?

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 **And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” ** 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. John 6:64-66

“Robot” Christians sinning, or turning away from God, may indeed be possible if Pharaoh’s hardened heart is any indication.

Are you saying that Pharaoh was a Christian, that was he in Christ and that he had the Holy Spirit in him?

No, Christ did indeed pray for Peter as he said and Christ doesn’t lie.

And the Lord Jesus prayed the following;

But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” Luke 22:32

So it’s true then that the only reason why Peter’s faith didn’t fail was because the Lord Jesus prayed for him that his faith should not fail. Remember you stated the following in post #97.

The Catholic would note that Peter didn’t fail because he repented and returned to the fold, as the Prodigal Son did. Had he went his merry way, as he could have chosen to do, as all of the children of Adam do, things would have been tragically different.

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[Contarini]

This point is often taken too far by non-Catholics (when it isn’t being taken too far by cafetaria Catholics). God being omnipotent, He can of course save anyone for any reason.

And yet He indicates that He expects more of us, that what we do does matter in our salvation. The apostles weren’t being paranoid about the prospect of not making it through the Narrow Gate; they believed Christ, and knew the importance of being part of his visible body and in communion with Peter.

Well, there’s some charity!

We are not Catholic because the Church is some sort of club. We are Catholic because the Church is that which Christ himself founded, and in which he abides. It was frankly a lot easier to be Protestant, with many more choices of community, and much less expected of me.

You can argue “Jesus died for everyone” with the Calvinists, they of the far more clubby view of salvation. The Catholic belief is different, recognizing Christ’s atonement for mankind as a call for us to join the true Church. Are there those who have not become Catholic who will be saved? Surely—Moses and Elijah were, as the Transfiguration demonstrates. They were also invincibly ignorant, having served God before He instituted the Church.

Can anyone in the age of that Church bet on such invincible ignorance? I wouldn’t want to----but then I joined the Church.

Will all Catholics be saved? No, the Narrow Gate is still narrow, and many who were once true Catholics, as the Corinthians, will fall away, seduced by the empty promises of charismatic heretics.

Is it petty and jealous to defend Truth? I don’t think it is. Scripture certainly seems to say it isn’t, with prophet after prophet standing for Truth despite who they offend or discomfort.

Relativism being what it is, of course, some people simply can’t abide Truth. Why, they probably even cringe at the capitalization of it!

Teflon:

Are you claiming that it is impossible for a person who dies out of the visible communion of the Catholic Church (as you define it) to be saved? If you are not so claiming, then you are on my side on this one, shocking as you may find that!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

This point is often taken too far by non-Catholics (when it isn’t being taken too far by cafetaria Catholics). God being omnipotent, He can of course save anyone for any reason.

And yet He indicates that He expects more of us, that what we do does matter in our salvation. The apostles weren’t being paranoid about the prospect of not making it through the Narrow Gate; they believed Christ, and knew the importance of being part of his visible body and in communion with Peter.

Well, there’s some charity!

We are not Catholic because the Church is some sort of club. We are Catholic because the Church is that which Christ himself founded, and in which he abides. It was frankly a lot easier to be Protestant, with many more choices of community, and much less expected of me.

You can argue “Jesus died for everyone” with the Calvinists, they of the far more clubby view of salvation. The Catholic belief is different, recognizing Christ’s atonement for mankind as a call for us to join the true Church. Are there those who have not become Catholic who will be saved? Surely—Moses and Elijah were, as the Transfiguration demonstrates. They were also invincibly ignorant, having served God before He instituted the Church.

Can anyone in the age of that Church bet on such invincible ignorance? I wouldn’t want to----but then I joined the Church.

Will all Catholics be saved? No, the Narrow Gate is still narrow, and many who were once true Catholics, as the Corinthians, will fall away, seduced by the empty promises of charismatic heretics.

Is it petty and jealous to defend Truth? I don’t think it is. Scripture certainly seems to say it isn’t, with prophet after prophet standing for Truth despite who they offend or discomfort.

Relativism being what it is, of course, some people simply can’t abide Truth. Why, they probably even cringe at the capitalization of it!

Teflon:

Are you claiming that it is impossible for a person who dies out of the visible communion of the Catholic Church (as you define it) to be saved? If you are not so claiming, then you are on my side on this one, shocking as you may find that!

I was specifically objecting to the poster’s argument that if people who were not Christians could be saved Jesus’ death would be meaningless. It is *that *argument specifically that reduces the Church to an exclusive club. There are other arguments which, however much I may disagree with them, do not have that specific problem.

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. John 6:35

Jesus said “he who comes to me” & “he who believes in me”, this means anyone who comes to Jesus or who believes in him. So a literal interpretation of this verse would mean that all Christians will never go hungry and they will never be thirsty. Also the **Apostle **Paul wrote the following;

in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— 2 Corinthians 11

This is what I love about the fundamentalist view—the Bible is to be interpreted 100% literally for favored verses, even when doing so makes no sense in context; unfavored verses like John 6:53 simply cannot be taken literally to any extent, despite the fact that the ECFs did so in this case.

So no, the point of the verse is not that no one would ever experience physical hunger or thirst, although the Eucharist clearly nourishes physically as well as spritually. The distinction Christ is drawing in this chapter is between the manna which physically nourished the Jews in the desert and the manna which would now spiritually sustain Christians. This manna is not the word of God, but the Word of God, which is precisely why so many disciples headed toward the door at the very notion.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 **And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” ** 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. John 6:64-66

Sure, and the context is the Eucharist. This is why one must be a baptised and confirmed Catholic to partake of it, and why grave sin takes it away from you.

Are you saying that Pharaoh was a Christian, that was he in Christ and that he had the Holy Spirit in him?

Where do you get the notion that I said the Pharaoh was a Christian?

The pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to do God’s bidding. One presumes that if God would make Pharaoh into a “robot” for this purpose, He might do so with Christians. He certainly could do so if He chose to, being omnipotent, but it certainly doesn’t seem to be the normal course of events in Scripture, despite the Calvinists. The epistles don’t indicate a placid life of being able only to do God’s will in any case, but a constant struggle between holiness and barbarity within believers.

And the Lord Jesus prayed the following;

But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” Luke 22:32

So it’s true then that the only reason why Peter’s faith didn’t fail was because the Lord Jesus prayed for him that his faith should not fail. Remember you stated the following in post #97.

But of course Peter’s faith did fail again—when he left Rome, prompting Christ to appear to him once more. Peter then returned to Rome to be crucified.

Peter’s faith likewise failed on the Sea of Galilee, which is why he sank. Christ held him up then as well.

Do you believe that no Christian ever falls away?

 

[Teflon93]

Teflon:

Are you claiming that it is impossible for a person who dies out of the visible communion of the Catholic Church (as you define it) to be saved? If you are not so claiming, then you are on my side on this one, shocking as you may find that!

Edwin

I don’t find it shocking—you stated the Church’s position accurately, and I should have started off my response by saying so, for which I apologize.

Unfortunately, people do torture this point until it basically devolves to, “See? Even the Catholic Church says you don’t have to be Catholic.” Some of these people are Catholics.

 

[Teflon93]

Teflon:

I was specifically objecting to the poster’s argument that if people who were not Christians could be saved Jesus’ death would be meaningless. It is *that *argument specifically that reduces the Church to an exclusive club. There are other arguments which, however much I may disagree with them, do not have that specific problem.

Edwin

I understand your objection, but you went so far as to say the motivation was pettiness. I doubt that it was, for the reason that the Church does not pretend to be a club; indeed, it has never had that sort of exclusivity, which is why so many disgruntled Catholics call for standards to be tightened.

It is somewhat alien to think of the Church which has spanned most of Western history and most of the world’s geography as a club. It is certainly alien for a Catholic to view the Church as his innovation; as a convert I note that I take no pride in being Catholic in that the Church long predated me and it took me a far longer time to seek and admit the Truth than it should any reasonable person. Being clubby about the Church is a bit like being clubby about recognizing that the Earth is round.

As inelegantly as the argument may have been phrased, it does not necessarily stem from pettiness. It could have been put, “If Christ’s death, necessitated by our sins, saved everyone for all time regardless of their continued, unrepentant sinfulness, Christ’s death was meaningless.” For was not Christ’s purpose not merely to open the Way, but to show us the Way?

 

[clmowry]

Maybe you are correct, or, perhaps you cannot write clearly.

It is still your straw man you are arguing against.

If Catholics actually did what you claim below the rest of your argument might be of some interest.

Basically, we look at your works – bowing to representations of creatures or statues, praying to creatures like mary or saints rather than praying to Jesus

. We see these as works of those who do not know God.

You need to learn to share your testimony in such a way that demonstrates your relationship with Jesus – rather than a dependance on creatures whom can’t even hear you because Heaven is a land far away

Perhaps you meant to say something like:

“We cannot see into your heart and though it may be true that you put your trust in Jesus your actions can lead others to believe, incorrectly, that you are putting your faith in creatures rather than in God.”

Or Even:

“I believe the bible implies that there is no Communion of Saints, and therefore it is futile for Catholics to ask for the intercessory prayer of dead.”

But you don’t, instead you impute to Catholics your false belief about what Catholics do and believe and then proceed to attack that belief.

i.e. Burning down your own straw man.

Chuck

And, clearly you can’t read.

Go open the book of Isaiah, he is contrasting heaven and hell in that text. And that scripture plainly teaches that heaven is a land very far away.

Isaiah 33

14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

16He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold **the land that is very far off. **

18Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

19Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

20Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

21But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

22For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

 

[Teflon93]

And of course we Catholics see Protestants paying to an empty piece of wood or to the roof of the sanctuary and figure they must be wood-worshipers. Moreover, if we ask a Protestant why their worshiping a cross or the rafters and they tell us, “We’re not—we worship only God”, they must be deceiving us.

Wait—we don’t do that at all.

So why do Protestants check their minds and charity at the door when examining Catholic practices?

 

[EHRAM]

Not all Protestants believe that Catholics are going to hell. The ones that do think that Catholics are committing the sin of idolatry by “worshipping” Mary, the saints, statues, wafers, etc. This attitude stems from a different understanding of what it means to worship. For a Catholic, to worship means to offer the holy sacrifice of the mass to God. For many Protestants, to worship means to sing hymns to someone and to pray to someone. So when Catholics sing song to Mary and pray to Mary and the Saints, some Protestants think that Catholics are committing the grave sin of idolatry.

Also, since (most) Protestants do not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, they view adoration of the Blessed Sacrament as idolatry and call it “wafer worship.”

 

[terillmorris]

Teflon-I did not say that baptism is the only necessary sacrament.

It is very dangerous to purport that only Catholics will be saved.

The gate is narrow-and I try to pray hard for all unbelievers that they may be given a chance to convert here, or before God at their death. God is Mercy in Himself, we must trust in His Mercy and Goodness. God will ask-How much did you love me and your fellow man? God will judge, God will purify.

(And who knows how much a painful, contracted illness goes to alleviate one’s time in purgatory-or what painful experiences await others?-I just pray that they are given relief and are able to join in union with Jesus, His Angels, Saints, and His Mother, Mary.)

We are all judged by what we know, what we learn, our ability to learn and also by what we reject. The Catholic Church offers the most complete Truth to follow. However, there will be many Christians, and Jews and Muslims and even some LDS who will enter, passing some catholics who disdain others for their beliefs.

As Catholics, we are given much, and therefore much MORE is expected of us.

How many Catholics go to daily Mass and receive the Holy Eucharist? How many pray the Rosary daily? How many read Holy Scripture daily? How many fast regularly? For that matter, how many go to Mass on Sat. night or Sunday each and every week.? How often do they receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation-once a year or weekly, or monthly?How many pray The Divine Mercy Chaplet daily for the conversion of sinners?How many abstain from ABC?How many support the Church generously ? How many instruct their children in the Faith? How many visit the sick, or those in prison? What extra measures do they take to help the widowed and the orphans.? The abandoned spouses and their children?

Jesus gave us explicit lessons on how to follow Him-Follow the commandments and live the Beatitudes. And He promised to always be with us in the Holy Eucharist and He sends His Holy Spirit to continually renew us…

Pray for Holy Priests

As Catholics strive to perfect themselves in their faith, they will guide others to it by the examples shown in their lives, not by criticizing others of different faiths.

Jim you say a whole lot of nothing in your posts. The bottom line is that the Church teaches “outside the Church there is no Salvation.” One must enter the Church to be saved. If someone is invincibly ignorant of the one true faith and has no other mortal sins on his soul than he can be saved. God will judge who is invincibly ignorant. Our job is to go out, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, convert all people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JonNC]

Jim you say a whole lot of nothing in your posts. The bottom line is that the Church teaches “outside the Church there is no Salvation.” One must enter the Church to be saved. If someone is invincibly ignorant of the one true faith and has no other mortal sins on his soul than he can be saved. God will judge who is invincibly ignorant. Our job is to go out, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, convert all people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

How does this bottom line that “outside the Church there is no salvation” differ from those protestants who claim Catholics are condemned to hell?
My dad was a Lutheran pastor, and I’ve heard it said here that noncatholic clergy have the least possibility of claiming invincible ignorance because they knew! It becomes a roadblock for conversion for me when your church teaches my dad has little chance of salvation. He wasn’t perfect, but he certainly believed and was marked with the cross of Christ forever in his baptism. I have no reason to believe he wasn’t saved, because I believe in Grace.
I deny the teaching of some noncatholics that Catholics have no salvation. In the same way, I deny the same teaching of the Catholic Church.
Jon

 

[NotWorthy]

How does this bottom line that “outside the Church there is no salvation” differ from those protestants who claim Catholics are condemned to hell?

Jon

Because when you are baptized with water in the Trinitarian formula, you become Catholic, even if it was done in the Lutheran Church.

Therefore, the Church teaches that you can go to heaven…

 

[PetersKeys]

But of course Peter’s faith did fail again—when he left Rome, prompting Christ to appear to him once more. Peter then returned to Rome to be crucified.

I am curious. where is this said? is this an early word of mouth tradition? I didn’t know Peter asked Christ to visit him once more

 

[Teflon93]

I am curious. where is this said? is this an early word of mouth tradition? I didn’t know Peter asked Christ to visit him once more

It’s my paraphrase of the “Quo Vadis?” episode.

 

[PetersKeys]

But states just as clearly that people who are not Christians can be saved by Christ in a mysterious manner. See Dominus Iesus 21.

Lumen Gentium, Dominus Iesus, and your Catechism say otherwise. Your attitude is, frankly, a petty and jealous one. Jesus died for everyone. The salvation you receive through Christ is not lessened by being shared with others.

Edwin

Jesus said no one comes to the Father but by him. That means only Jesus can save us. Muslims and other non-christians don’ believe in Jesus and are devoid of this salvation.

*“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does
not believe will be condemned.”

Mark 16:16*

Faith and Baptism are the core tenents of salvation. Without Faith in Jesus everything else dosen’t hold.

Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Peroid. End of Story. If you say otherwise then you claim what he did on the cross was for nothing and his suffering was for nothing.