Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[Contarini]

We’ll need to see the excerpts from the texts before we’ll know that your intepretation of Catholic teaching is valid, Edwin. The bolded portions above require some evidence. I am unaware of the Church having mapped the probability space of salvation sufficiently to claim likely or unlikely beyond the well-known requirement to be free from mortal sin upon death.

Teflon,

That’s exactly my point over against the bolded claim. JonNC has been told by Catholics that Protestant clergy are unlikely to be acting out of invincible ignorance. I said–and you clearly agree with me–that this is not Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church, as you note, does not speculate officially as to how many Protestants might be acting out of good faith and how many might not.

Are you claiming that the Catholic Church teaches that a person can follow the truth as they know it in perfectly good faith and still be damned because (though they had no way of knowing it) what they believe is in fact wrong? Or are you simply arguing that the chances of a Protestant acting in truly good faith may be relatively slender? If the latter, while I would obviously disagree with you (!),nothing you are saying contradicts Catholic teaching as I understand it. Because, again, we agree that the Catholic Church does not speak officially as to how many people may fulfill one or another condition–it simply lays out what the conditions are.

I am quite aware that the Catholic Church teaches explicitly (in Lumen Gentium and the Catechism) that a person who rejects Catholicism knowing it to be true cannot be saved. And since I respect Catholicism highly, I take that teaching very seriously and continuously examine my conscience with regard to the reasons why I remain outside the Roman Communion.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

Teflon,

That’s exactly my point over against the bolded claim. JonNC has been told by Catholics that Protestant clergy are unlikely to be acting out of invincible ignorance. I said–and you clearly agree with me–that this is not Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church, as you note, does not speculate officially as to how many Protestants might be acting out of good faith and how many might not.

You are correct—the Church does not so speculate. I objected simply to the probabilistic terms used; they can imply a certainty we don’t have and to the best of my knowledge don’t claim to have.

Are you claiming that the Catholic Church teaches that a person can follow the truth as they know it in perfectly good faith and still be damned because (though they had no way of knowing it) what they believe is in fact wrong?

“Perfectly good faith” and “as they know it” are the difficult terms here. The emphasis in the Catholic Church is on the former, not the latter, because salvation is tied to grace, sacraments, and sinlessness. Knowledge is required for mortal sin. The Reformers had sufficient knowledge of Catholic teaching to understand full well the sin of heresy and the sin of scandal they were committing. Your average Protestant does not. The Church makes a distinction here because it is required by her knowledge of mortal sin.

Of course, Protestants born into that faith are still required to refrain from mortal sin, a much more challenging task given lack of access to the sacraments, especially the sacrament of penance. If there are any who took Luther’s “Sin boldly, but believe more boldly still” credo to heart, they may well be damned for it. God can damn as well as save for any reason He chooses, of course.

Or are you simply arguing that the chances of a Protestant acting in truly good faith may be relatively slender? If the latter, while I would obviously disagree with you (!),nothing you are saying contradicts Catholic teaching as I understand it. Because, again, we agree that the Catholic Church does not speak officially as to how many people may fulfill one or another condition–it simply lays out what the conditions are.

Yes, this is correct, although I prefer “persistently abstaining from mortal sin” to “acting in truly good faith” because Protestants equate faith with belief.

I am quite aware that the Catholic Church teaches explicitly (in Lumen Gentium and the Catechism) that a person who rejects Catholicism knowing it to be true cannot be saved. And since I respect Catholicism highly, I take that teaching very seriously and continuously examine my conscience with regard to the reasons why I remain outside the Roman Communion.

In Christ,

Edwin

Still, it’s better to avoid probabilistic terms in this discussion. God can of course do anything; He has indicated that He chooses not to do so. He has not to my knowledge provided us with any notion of probabilities for salvation beyond the indications in the Bible. The best we can do is to obey God. Given the contradictory things taught in all Christian denominations regarding salvation, it is impossible that all are correct in interpreting God’s will. We therefore must avoid the easy ecumenism of pretending there are no distinctions at all.

And I hope you do cross the Tiber soon, Edwin.

 

[jmcrae]

Teflon,

That’s exactly my point over against the bolded claim. JonNC has been told by Catholics that Protestant clergy are unlikely to be acting out of invincible ignorance.

Their ignorance is less likely to be invincible, because they are fluent in the original languages of the Bible and of the writings of the Early Church, and they have access to the writings of the Fathers of the Church, in a way that their congregation members typically don’t.

A person is “invincibly ignorant” on a particular subject when it is not possible for him to learn something on that subject - not when he simply chooses not to - when he simply leaves the books that he is able to read, unopened - when he passes by and leaves that unlocked door to the Catholic Church closed.

 

[rlg94086]

God can of course do anything; He has indicated that He chooses not to do so. He has not to my knowledge provided us with any notion of probabilities for salvation beyond the indications in the Bible. The best we can do is to obey God. Given the contradictory things taught in all Christian denominations regarding salvation, it is impossible that all are correct in interpreting God’s will. We therefore must avoid the easy ecumenism of pretending there are no distinctions at all.

Well said Teflon93. I pray for my separated brothers and sisters in Christ and never condemn them to hell, but neither will I say that they definitely will be saved outside the Church. This is in God’s hands, and all of our guesswork won’t change reality.

 

[Teflon93]

Their ignorance is less likely to be invincible, because they are fluent in the original languages of the Bible and of the writings of the Early Church, and they have access to the writings of the Fathers of the Church, in a way that their congregation members typically don’t.

A person is “invincibly ignorant” on a particular subject when it is not possible for him to learn something on that subject - not when he simply chooses not to - when he simply leaves the books that he is able to read, unopened - when he passes by and leaves that unlocked door to the Catholic Church closed.

This is true, but there is another factor we cannot possibly know, which is the probability they have refrained from mortal sin.

So while I agree with the notion that a familiarity with history and Holy Scripture must necessarily reduce the ranks of the invincibly ignorant, it doesn’t tell us much about the probability of living a holy life despite the lack of the sacraments and access to the Church. In short, the clergy certainly may be expected to know more Scripture and more history than the laity, but they also may well be expected to refrain from mortal sin more than the laity too.

We are still of course to recognize them as Christian brothers and sisters, and to continue to leave a light on for them within the Church. I am certainly glad the light was on for me and my wife, and hope it will ever be so.

 

[Teflon93]

Well said Teflon93. I pray for my separated brothers and sisters in Christ and never condemn them to hell, but neither will I say that they definitely will be saved outside the Church. This is in God’s hands, and all of our guesswork won’t change reality.

Excellent point, Robert—we hope that none of our Protestant brothers and sisters get left outside the Narrow Gate, which is why many of the Catholics on this forum try to call them to the best path we know of through it. A lot of the word count in these forums is to demonstrate that this is the true path; we hope that once our non-Catholic brothers and sisters recognize it as such, they will take it, aided by the sacraments which are its waypoints.

Simultaneously, we recognize that finding the path and following it may not be a guarantee of getting through the Gate either. We have to trust to God’s divine mercy and judgment that those who follow the path will come home; it is up to us to stay on it and persevere. I certainly hope I get there myself.

 

[jmcrae]

This is true, but there is another factor we cannot possibly know, which is the probability they have refrained from mortal sin.

So while I agree with the notion that a familiarity with history and Holy Scripture must necessarily reduce the ranks of the invincibly ignorant, it doesn’t tell us much about the probability of living a holy life despite the lack of the sacraments and access to the Church. In short, the clergy certainly may be expected to know more Scripture and more history than the laity, but they also may well be expected to refrain from mortal sin more than the laity too.

I think a better way to phrase it would be that they are more likely to have the “full knowledge” requirement that makes a grave sin to be a mortal sin.

Someone who commits a grave sin while thinking there’s nothing the matter with it, or even thinking they are doing the responsible thing (as with birth control, in the case of someone who got their sex education from Planned Parenthood, and has not been exposed to the teachings of the Church) has committed a grave sin, but it is not mortal. But someone who has made a study of the subject of morality, yet continues to do these things, is likely to be aware of the arguments against it - thus, they may have full knowledge that they are committing a sin - and in this case, it is mortal.

We are still of course to recognize them as Christian brothers and sisters, and to continue to leave a light on for them within the Church. I am certainly glad the light was on for me and my wife, and hope it will ever be so.

Yes, me too - and I am also grateful for the persistent invitations and exhortations of my Catholic friends.

 

[Teflon93]

I think a better way to phrase it would be that they are more likely to have the “full knowledge” requirement that makes a grave sin to be a mortal sin.

Someone who commits a grave sin while thinking there’s nothing the matter with it, or even thinking they are doing the responsible thing (as with birth control, in the case of someone who got their sex education from Planned Parenthood, and has not been exposed to the teachings of the Church) has committed a grave sin, but it is not mortal. But someone who has made a study of the subject of morality, yet continues to do these things, is likely to be aware of the arguments against it - thus, they may have full knowledge that they are committing a sin - and in this case, it is mortal.

You’re right—that’s a much more clear and consistent way to put it.

 

[6glargento]

Like these guys? lol

youtube.com/watch?v=lvJ6uoMoBQs

youtube.com/watch?v=qdQj8HZa9Yg

its things like this that make me hope for a new inquisition

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi
I am Catholic and I get annoyed when I see on other forums other Christians saying Catholicism leads to hell.
Why do they say this?
Please reassure me because sometimes I get worried about it,.

I believe it is because of this; Justification.
Catholics can NOT seperate sanctification from justification.

 

[dessert]

Fear and Ignorance most likely, my methodist husband had all kinds of myths in his brain. Then one day I got him to visit an old historic Church and he realized there was nothing to be afraid of. Wow he said it even has an organ and I said yeah and we even sing amazing grace. Yaay! We have a ways to go but we are taking steps.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I believe it is because of this; Justification.
Catholics can NOT seperate sanctification from justification.

And that lack of separation results in eternal damnation? So we Catholics will stand before God and He will say, “Sorry, but you didn’t distinguish justification from sanctification, you must depart from me.”

 

[myfavoritmartin]

And that lack of separation results in eternal damnation? So we Catholics will stand before God and He will say, “Sorry, but you didn’t distinguish justification from sanctification, you must depart from me.”

No Pixie as long as you asked it’s more like this…
Evangelics would say that the list of things you must do to continue on in the grace of justification (so to speak) each and everyone does its small part to deny a little bit of the finished work of Christ on the cross, and attach credit back onto yourself, and they would say that it is removing your faith in Christ and the work of the cross and putting it back on yourself. As Clement bishop of Rome said “even those works done out of holiness of the heart” don’t justify us…

take a look…

**"And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. **32

 

[Pixie_Dust]

No Pixie as long as you asked it’s more like this…
Evangelics would say that the list of things you must do to continue on in the grace of justification (so to speak) each and everyone does its small part to deny a little bit of the finished work of Christ on the cross, and attach credit back onto yourself, and they would say that it is removing your faith in Christ and the work of the cross and putting it back on yourself. As Clement bishop of Rome said “even those works done out of holiness of the heart” don’t justify us…

take a look…

**"And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. **32

Just curious, which epistle of Clement’s is that? The one to the Corinthians?

“For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.” - Phil 2:13; D-R

Any and every good work that we do in faith, is God working through us.

James 2:17-26
17So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24** Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?** 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Just curious, which epistle of Clement’s is that? The one to the Corinthians?

1st clement 32:4 epistle to corinthians

earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-hoole.html

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Just curious, which epistle of Clement’s is that? The one to the Corinthians?

“For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.” - Phil 2:13; D-R

Any and every good work that we do in faith, is God working through us.

James 2:17-26
17So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24** Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?** 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Hilarious an evangelic quoting ECF’s and a Catholic proof texting scripture…

You realise the first two verses do nothing to support your pov, right?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Here’s a list of must DO’S to recieve that “grace” of justification
You must:

— Love and worship God
— Pray
— Fast
— Love one’s neighbor
— Practice self-renunciation
— Obey the commandments of God
— Bear witness to the Catholic faith
— Follow supernatural inspiration in deeds
— Confess the major doctrines of the Church

Do all of these things, and maybe become worthy of Justification.

But the Bible says (Romans 3) that God Justifies the ungodly and that we are justified apart from works.

 

[rlg94086]

Just curious, which epistle of Clement’s is that? The one to the Corinthians?

“For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.” - Phil 2:13; D-R

Any and every good work that we do in faith, is God working through us.

James 2:17-26

17So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24** Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?** 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

Right. We are justified by faith…and works, which make faith perfect. I think non-Catholics get hung up on the works aspect, because the don’t see that the Bible clearly tells us we must have/do both. It is not an either/or. “Faith without works is dead,” but we cannot be justified by our works without faith. No amount of works, done without faith will save you. The Catholic Church is clear on this.

 

[rlg94086]

Here’s a list of must DO’S to recieve that “grace” of justification
You must:

— Love and worship God
— Pray
— Fast
— Love one’s neighbor
— Practice self-renunciation
— Obey the commandments of God
— Bear witness to the Catholic faith
— Follow supernatural inspiration in deeds
— Confess the major doctrines of the Church

Do all of these things, and maybe become worthy of Justification.

But the Bible says (Romans 3) that God Justifies the ungodly and that we are justified apart from works.

Indeed, but “apart” doesn’t mean “without.” The works are still necessary, but meaningless if done without faith.

 

[rlg94086]

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/pccujnt4.htm

4.7 The Good Works of the Justified
37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.

38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. **When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace. **

39.The concept of a preservation of grace and a growth in grace and faith is also held byLutherans. They do emphasize that righteousness as acceptance by God and sharing in the righteousness of Christ is always complete. At the same time, they state that there can be growth in its effects in Christian living. When they view the good works of Christians as the fruits and signs of justification and not as one’s own “merits”, they nevertheless also understand eternal life in accord with the New Testament as unmerited “reward” in the sense of the fulfillment of God’s promise to the believer. [See Sources for section 4.7].