Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

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At this juncture I would just like to thank all of you who have:
  1. Welcomed me to this site
  2. Taken the time to answer me so thoroughly.
Although I am not persuaded of them I have learnt a great deal about actual Catholic beliefs and p.o.v. I appreciate your patience and good will.

I wish to inform you that I am not trying to get personal or personally offend anybody although I do apologise to Christine as I did get a bit hot under the collar with her. 😉

Regards,

Jonathan 👍
 
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When I said "you" I was implying the RCC as an institution. Are you saying that one cannot apply the sayings of Jesus to the Pharisees to our own lives or draw parallels today?
In view of your own comments about Protestant exegesis the whole point of Exegesis is to bring out what the passage is saying.

Catholic exegesis leaves a lot to be desired.
Certainly the words of Jesus can be applied timelessly. However, most often those that apply these words to Catholics don’t know the difference between sacred tradition, and traditions of man (customs).

It is likely that you know very little, if anything about Catholic exegesis.
Read Luke chapters 1 and 2 and then tell me how you arrive at the conclusion that Mary was an Immaculate Conception and from thenceforth may be not only be called blessed but may be prayed to and approached as a Mediatrix. By pulling two verses completely out of context - Luke 1: 28 and Luke1: 48.
Such a comment confirms my speculation above. You seem to believe (erroneously) that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is derived from Luke. Furhtermore, you do not seem to understand the Apostolic doctrine of the communion of saints.
Luke 1:47 is mangled to mean that Jesus saved her before she was born or when she was born.

Completely ignore Luke 1:30 where Mary finds favour or grace with God (as did Noah).

Ignore also the fact that Mary brught a sin offering in Luke 2: 24.
No, these things are not ignored, just understood in the light of Apostolic teaching. The language of Luke 1:47 is covered in other threads. If you really wish to take issue with this, and support your assertion that Catholic exegesis has “mangled” the text, I urge you to take it to one of the Immaculate conception threads. Mary brought an offering because she was born under the old covenant, and was obedient to it. The offering is for ritual impurity (the blood of childbirth) and has nothing to do with personal violation of the commandments of God. Giving birth is not a sin. That is like saying that Jesus needed to be baptized to wash away his sins!
In fact the whole of Catholic doctrine is selective and leans more on Chuch tradition to interpret scripture than the proper way of using scripture to formulate Church doctrine. 🤷
You have now proved beyond all doubt that you do not understand Catholic exegesis. Catholic doctrine was whole and entire before the NT was ever written. NONE of it is based on scripture. The “proper way” of formulating doctrine is to receieve it from Christ, as the Catholic Church has done. Separating the understanding of scripture from the Apostolic teachings has resulted in all manner of strange doctrines, all based on the bible!
 
Guanophore.

If all the Catholic teachings are not in Scripture and that they were formulated before the Bible was written then how do we really know what they were?

Why have the Bible at all then?
 
This thread brings to mind this quote:

“The Catholic Church is for saints and sinners alone. For respectable people, the Anglican church will do.”–Oscar Wilde
 
Guanophore.

If all the Catholic teachings are not in Scripture and that they were formulated before the Bible was written then how do we really know what they were?

Why have the Bible at all then?
Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would serve as the living memory of the Church (John 14:26).

That said, we do possess many non-biblical writings of the First- and Second-Generation Christians – saints like Polycarp, Justiyn Martyr, Clement of Rome, Iraneus – which, while not inspired writings, do show us what information the Apostles had taught to their generation. The notion that the “mists of history” obscure early Christian belief just isn’t accurate — an abundance of historical record exists showing what the early Church believed, taught and practiced.
 
Wow!

This is circular reasoning if ever there was.

So the Bible is based on Catholic Doctrine although it does not contain some of the key doctrines of the Catholic faith, yet you appeal to it to justify Church doctrine such as Matt 16!?

:confused: :confused:

Then how do we really know what Christ said?

I accept the Bible as it is - The Word of God. Isaiah says To the law and to the testimony : if they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

Peter says after relating the experience of the Transfiguration and hearing the audible voice of the Father:

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the daystar arise in your hearts.
Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation .
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man : but holy men of God spake moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Pet 1: 19 - 21

As regards Revelation 12 Genesis 37 has a lot to do with it!

Even a cursory glance at Revelation as a whole reveals the fact that it contains the symbols and visions that are in the books of Daniel, Zechariah, Genesis, Ezekiel, etc
Joseph’s dream was of the Sun and the moon and the 11 stars (he himself being the twelth star) which are shown to be Israel (Jacob) Leah (Rachel his actual mother was dead but Jacob’s living wife was Leah) and his 11 brothers. So then the Woman is Israel from whom was born the Man Child Messiah (Jesus) according to the flesh and was caught up to heaven (ascended / asumption?) the dragon was obviously Satan.
 
Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would serve as the living memory of the Church (John 14:26).
**Surely the Holy Spirit would bring all thing to their remembrance that Jesus had spoken to them so that they could write the Bible for us!?

The Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth, to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. To speak of the things concerning Jesus. Not all these other traditions that do not appear in scripture and nothing to do with Jesus. **
That said, we do possess many non-biblical writings of the First- and Second-Generation Christians – saints like Polycarp, Justiyn Martyr, Clement of Rome, Iraneus – which, while not inspired writings, do show us what information the Apostles had taught to their generation. The notion that the “mists of history” obscure early Christian belief just isn’t accurate — an abundance of historical record exists showing what the early Church believed, taught and practiced.
Yes. Here I agree with you. There is an abundance of early Chuch testimony TO THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE.
There is also a lot of Pseudigrapha, heretical writings, arguments, apologetics, etc. Yet surely the only guide though this morass is the Holy Scriptures as described by Daniel “the scripture of truth.”
 
Surely the Holy Spirit would bring all thing to their remembrance that Jesus had spoken to them so that they could write the Bible for us!?
Yes indeed, that is one reason why the Holy Spirit serves as the Church’s living memory. But Jesus didn’t say the Holy Spirit would ever stop being the Church’s living memory.
The Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth, to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. To speak of the things concerning Jesus. Not all these other traditions that do not appear in scripture and nothing to do with Jesus.
The Traditions to which you presumably refer are all about Jesus. For instance, the Immaculate Conception is really all about Jesus, not Mary – had Mary possessed original sin, Jesus would have inherited it from her. The only way for Jesus to be born without original sin was to have neither parent possess original sin.

Also, you use conclusory language claiming that such Traditions "do not appear in Scripture’ which simply isn’t true. Feel free to start a thread on any Tradition you want and I’ll be happy to discuss the Biblical support for it with you.
 
I accept the Bible as it is - The Word of God.
So do we.

Of course, the Bible itself says that it isn’t the ONLY source of God’s word. Scripture plainly states that the Apostles’ preaching constitutes God’s word. “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers,” 1 Thes. 2:13.

Since Catholics accept the Bible as it is – the word of God – we believe the Bible when it says that Apostolic Traiditon also is the word of God. 🙂

Sadly, one of Protestantism’s pillars is a denial of this Scriptural truth in favor of a man-made tradition that denies Apostolic Tradition is God’s word and claims that only Scripture constitutes God’s word.
 
At this juncture I would just like to thank all of you who have:
  1. Welcomed me to this site
  2. Taken the time to answer me so thoroughly.
Although I am not persuaded of them I have learnt a great deal about actual Catholic beliefs and p.o.v. I appreciate your patience and good will.

I wish to inform you that I am not trying to get personal or personally offend anybody although I do apologise to Christine as I did get a bit hot under the collar with her. 😉

Regards,

Jonathan 👍
You are the reason we are here! 😃
Guanophore.

If all the Catholic teachings are not in Scripture and that they were formulated before the Bible was written then how do we really know what they were?

Why have the Bible at all then?
We trust in God. Jesus said He would lead us into all truth, and that the gates of hell would not prevail. The teachings have been preserved through the Apostolic Succession. It is the duty of the bishop to preserve them. The Bible accurately represents a portion of the Apostolic teaching. It was never intended to include all of it. Divine revelation has two strands, the Sacred Tradition (called in Acts “The Way”) which is the lifestyle of the Christian, and the Holy Writings, which are the inspired-inerrant Word of God. They are without error because they came from the infallible teachings of the Apostles, which are without error.
Wow!

This is circular reasoning if ever there was.

So the Bible is based on Catholic Doctrine although it does not contain some of the key doctrines of the Catholic faith, yet you appeal to it to justify Church doctrine such as Matt 16!?
The Bible contains all the key doctrines of the Catholic faith. If you do not see that,then you either misunderstand Catholic Doctrine, or you are misinterpreting the Scripture. The church does not have to “justify” any doctrine. The Church functions the way Jesus intended. We use scripture to try to explain this to those who have been separated from the Apostolic Succession.

:confused: :confused:
Then how do we really know what Christ said?
We accept the testimony of those who heard him, who committed what they heard to faithful men, who were able to teach others also.
I accept the Bible as it is - The Word of God. Isaiah says To the law and to the testimony : if they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20
Certainly! The problem is not the Word, but the myriad of individual perceptions of how it can be interpreted.
Peter says after relating the experience of the Transfiguration and hearing the audible voice of the Father:

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the daystar arise in your hearts.
Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation .
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man : but holy men of God spake moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Pet 1: 19 - 21
This is why it is critical that the writings be interpreted in the light of the teaching of those Apostles that were with the Lord.
 
Yes. Here I agree with you. There is an abundance of early Chuch testimony TO THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE.
There is also a lot of Pseudigrapha, heretical writings, arguments, apologetics, etc. Yet surely the only guide though this morass is the Holy Scriptures as described by Daniel “the scripture of truth.”
Certainly consistency with already revealed scripture was one of the criteria. Also, consistency with the Apostolic Teaching.
 
When I said “you” I was implying the RCC as an institution. Are you saying that one cannot apply the sayings of Jesus to the Pharisees to our own lives or draw parallels today?

In view of your own comments about Protestant exegesis the whole point of Exegesis is to bring out what the passage is saying.

Catholic exegesis leaves a lot to be desired.

Read Luke chapters 1 and 2 and then tell me how you arrive at the conclusion that Mary was an Immaculate Conception and from thenceforth may be not only be called blessed but may be prayed to and approached as a Mediatrix. By pulling two verses completely out of context - Luke 1: 28 and Luke1: 48.

Luke 1:47 is mangled to mean that Jesus saved her before she was born or when she was born.

Completely ignore Luke 1:30 where Mary finds favour or grace with God (as did Noah).

Ignore also the fact that Mary brught a sin offering in Luke 2: 24.

In fact the whole of Catholic doctrine is selective and leans more on Chuch tradition to interpret scripture than the proper way of using scripture to formulate Church doctrine. 🤷
You might want to learn how to formulate an argument before posting such tripe here.

State your premise, advance your argument in a logical manner, and support with evidence every step of the way.

Instead, you and MFM simply state your conclusions as though they were the literal meaning of the text in question. It’s completely unconvincing.

As with your explanation of John 6, an interpretation not held in the Early Church, and one you simply torture because you can’t explain why your forefathers rejected the Eucharist otherwise.

Let me give you a hint: it had nothing to do with Scripture, and everything to do with excommunication and the lack of a valid Eucharist.
 
Even if I went to the trouble of drawing up a full scale deposition worthy of a court of law using proper reference material instead of mere of the cuff questions in a chat forum I doubt that you Teflon would pay any heed whatsover to it.

You seem to be evasively pedantic and incapable of objective thought.

I have never even broached the topic of Transubstantiation.

If you knew the OBJECTIVE (as opposed to the automatic answers of the brainwashed) history of Wyclif and Lollardy you would be more hesitant to make such sweeping conclusions yourself. Wyclif was a priest and raised objections before he was excommunicated.

Ever heard of conscience?

Goodbye.
 
Catholicism teaches that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was insufficient to purchase eternal redemption for his people. (See the responses in the thread above where it is explicitly stated)

It also does not recognise the Bible as the complete revelation of God (again, see the responses in the thread above).

If there are any reasons why Catholicism leads to hell it is these!
 
Catholicism teaches that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was insufficient to purchase eternal redemption for his people. (See the responses in the thread above where it is explicitly stated)
no, this is not true, jmtosh. Catholicism teaches, in fact, the exact opposite of what you assert here. The bible, being a Catholic book, makes it clear in many places that Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross was more than sufficient to purchase eternal redemption not just for His own people, but for the whole world. Such statements make it clear that you don’t understand the Teachings as they have come to us from the Apostles.
It also does not recognise the Bible as the complete revelation of God (again, see the responses in the thread above).
I should hope not! Such a think would contradict the Holy Scripture itself, which clearly indicates that Jesus is the complete revelation of God. Furthermore, if the Truth did not exist prior to the writing of it, then how could any portion of it find it’s way into wrighting?
If there are any reasons why Catholicism leads to hell it is these!
So, have you got any other reasons to offer?
 
Even if I went to the trouble of drawing up a full scale deposition worthy of a court of law using proper reference material instead of mere of the cuff questions in a chat forum I doubt that you Teflon would pay any heed whatsover to it.

You seem to be evasively pedantic and incapable of objective thought.

I have never even broached the topic of Transubstantiation.

If you knew the OBJECTIVE (as opposed to the automatic answers of the brainwashed) history of Wyclif and Lollardy you would be more hesitant to make such sweeping conclusions yourself. Wyclif was a priest and raised objections before he was excommunicated.

Ever heard of conscience?

Goodbye.
My congratulations on your discovery of Roget’s Thesaurus—next you’ll be telling us you have a “valid hermeneutic”, all the while inveighing against pedantry.

I haven’t seen one bit of evidence you have the skill to construct an argument, much less one worthy of a court of law.

I do see that your knowledge of history is weak, as your paraphrase of Wycliffe and Lollardy demonstrates.

Do feel free to open a separate thread on those topics, and prepare to be educated.

You seem to have the misapprehension many anti-Catholics have, which is that an open discussion thread means that everyone need to respond to you in the way you wish to be responded to.

Given that you and your fellow Protestants have not yet been able to articulate a single, unified body of theological doctrine and written it down, you can hardly expect us to keep a running list of the beliefs of the individual heresiarchs which comprise the Atomic Church of Me. If you can’t sort it out yourselves, how do you expect us to?

The Eucharist is on point because some of you claim that Catholics are going to hell because we don’t follow Scripture, nor obey Christ. John 6 shows Christ commanding the disciples to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood, which is the basis of the Catholic Mass. It is devastating to “Bible-believing church” arguments that you reject the Eucharist. It is of a piece with the rejection of apostolic succession. It is theology by subtraction.

You do not raise the question because you cannot answer it in any satisfactory manner.

Similarly, you cannot follow the logical conclusion of OSAS and the “fruits” the faithful must demonstrate—namely, that you’ve done nothing more than rename “works” without admitting as such.

With a twist, however—fundamentalists lack the sacrament of penance, and have a marked tendency to drive out of the flock those who have. After all, they can’t “really” have been saved, right?

This lack of charity toward your own—this cruel mistreatment of people at the very nadir of their spiritual lives—has driven many into the arms of the true Church. I have two dear friends from my RCIA class who are now devoted Catholics as a result, with a beautiful baby girl who had the blessing of being a cradle Catholic as a result.

This is what happens when you mess around with the sacraments—nothing good comes of it. They were instituted by Christ, are well-attested in Scripture, and the Church exists to adminster them to the faithful.

The Church continues Christ’s ministry, as St Paul did. For what was lacking in Christ’s sacrifice? What he told Peter: “Feed my sheep.” The Bride of Christ faithfully tends to Christ’s flock.

All of which may be lost on you at the moment, but keep reading Scripture and it will come.
 
Catholicism teaches that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was insufficient to purchase eternal redemption for his people. (See the responses in the thread above where it is explicitly stated)

It also does not recognise the Bible as the complete revelation of God (again, see the responses in the thread above).

If there are any reasons why Catholicism leads to hell it is these!
Any sentence which begins “Catholicism teaches…” had better be followed with evidence.

So where is it?
 
In the thread above one of your colleaugues states this - the scripture that is adduced to justify this is Col 1:24. Look for yourself.

That’s the trouble, you haven’t read half of what your colleagues have stated and then you go on to state the complete opposite.

As in the second point, one of your colleagues had already stated that no Catholic doctrine is based on scripture and you vehemently denied this statement later.

Just like the Church Fathers huh?
 
Thats new to me. What rites do they marry in and these rites subject to the Roman Pontiff?
22 of the 23 Rites permit married men to become priests. The Latin Rite alone reserves the priesthood for single, celibate men.

No Rite allows priests to marry, unless they become laicized first (meaning, they no longer work for the Church and do not have permission to be the pastor of a church, or to hear Confessions or to say Mass, etc.).

It’s a subtle distinction, but important. This dates back to Apostolic times, and there is no Apostolic Church anywhere, including those in schism from Rome, who allow priests to marry, nor to remarry if their spouse is deceased. But all of them (the ones in schism) allow married men to become priests. This is the discipline of the East.

The 22 other Rites that are in union with Rome follow the discipline of the East, as well - only the Latin Rite follows the discipline of the West.
 
By the way I said EVASIVELY pedantic. Pedantry is a good trait. Evasiveness isn’t.
 
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