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kaycee
Guest
Now that your “on the road”, what are you actually doing to get salvation?
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rlg94086
Guest
Well stated Edwin. And, I would add, who cares? The whole predestination argument is one of those useless things we argue about as Christians. From a practical standpoint (i.e. the way we live our lives), we have free will. The fact that God knows what we are going to choose and/or decided what we were/are going to choose is really of no consequence to our faith since we can’t change God’s will.
IOW…regardless of whether you believe or disbelieve in predestination, you are still making decisions and choices. It has no impact on your life, and you can’t change its reality anyway. If you decide to deny predestination, then God predestined you to do that.
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rlg94086
Guest
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rlg94086
Guest
“Get” salvation?
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RobbyS
Guest
Predestination absolutely does not mean that you will be saved no matter what you do. It means that God directs you toward eternal life as an archer shoots an arrow at a target (God, being an infallible archer, never misses). The arrow isn’t teleported to the target. It passes through the intervening space. Similarly, a Christian who is among the elect will repent and believe and persevere in doing good works. God will make sure (without violating the integrity of the person’s intellect and will) that this happens.
Edwin
Is this in terms of Aristotelian/Newtonian physics?
Edwin
Is this in terms of Aristotelian/Newtonian physics?
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kaycee
Guest
Well, I assume that you do not know your final destination? In RC theology that would be the sin of presumption, i believe?“Get” salvation?
What are you doing to get to heaven?
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rlg94086
Guest
That makes no sense.
1 John 2:19:
Who is “us” in this passage? Christ’s Church, correct? Are you saying that a Christian who becomes a Catholic is no longer a Christian? That is absurd.
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rlg94086
Guest
First and foremost, I am praying for the Grace of God, and I am working out my salvation in “fear and trembling” as St. Paul taught.
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RobbyS
Guest
I think it does make a difference. The Puritans, who believed in double predestination, showed great confidence in all their works. If God is flying the plane, then you will get to where he takes you. The most remarkable religious trait of American protestants is a strong serse of God’s providence. That, unfortunately, is disappearing.Well stated Edwin. And, I would add, who cares? The whole predestination argument is one of those useless things we argue about as Christians. From a practical standpoint (i.e. the way we live our lives), we have free will. The fact that God knows what we are going to choose and/or decided what we were/are going to choose is really of no consequence to our faith since we can’t change God’s will.
IOW…regardless of whether you believe or disbelieve in predestination, you are still making decisions and choices. It has no impact on your life, and you can’t change its reality anyway. If you decide to deny predestination, then God predestined you to do that.
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rlg94086
Guest
Reminds me of this paradox - an arrow can never hit its target, because it always must travel half of the distance that remains to get there.
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rlg94086
Guest
Hmmm…not a big fan of the Puritans. They hanged my ancestor as a witch - apologized later for the mistake. Oopsie.
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Contarini
Guest
LOL! I was thinking primarily of Aquinas’s language, and of course he is influenced by Aristotle. So yes, I guess that is at work somewhere in Aquinas’s account. And while Calvinists take out a lot of the nuance and balance that you find in Aquinas (it’s just a much more barbaric form of theology), they don’t disagree with the point that the means are predestined as well as the end, so I felt free to go ahead and use that language.
Edwin
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kaycee
Guest
And in concrete terms, how does one get more grace? Is is just praying to God for grace?
What would fear and trembling in todays world look like? Examples?
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rlg94086
Guest
Tell you what, pick up a Catechism of the Catholic Church, and you will have your answer. If you prefer an online version, go here: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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Contarini
Guest
Predestination in Catholic theology has very limited consequences, which is why Catholics have been able to agree to disagree (well, also because the Pope told them to agree to disagree–one of the more obvious benefits of having a Pope!). However, in Calvinism predestination does have a lot of consequences. For instance, because they think only the elect are ever regenerate they must deny baptismal regeneration (since they naturally aren’t willing to argue that we can know that all the baptized are elect). Or again, if they want to avoid antinomianism (which most of them do) they must say that the elect will behave in a particular way (as I’ve pointed out). It therefore follows that if you commit a serious sin it may be evidence that you are not elect. This is far more terrifying than in Catholicism, where you can always repent. Try reading some of the more vitriolic Calvinist attacks on Scott Hahn, for instance (or don’t and say you did–it will be better for your soul!). They can’t say that he was once a believer and has now fallen away, but their view of post-Tridentine Catholicism won’t let them say that he is still a believer (this is not true of all Calvinists, but of the really conservative types that Hahn used to hang out with), and they are too realistic to have any significant hope that he will ever return to the “true faith.” So they must say that he was never really a believer, and even that he never really understood what the Gospel is all about.Well stated Edwin. And, I would add, who cares? The whole predestination argument is one of those useless things we argue about as Christians. From a practical standpoint (i.e. the way we live our lives), we have free will. The fact that God knows what we are going to choose and/or decided what we were/are going to choose is really of no consequence to our faith since we can’t change God’s will.
IOW…regardless of whether you believe or disbelieve in predestination, you are still making decisions and choices. It has no impact on your life, and you can’t change its reality anyway. If you decide to deny predestination, then God predestined you to do that.
Edwin
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kaycee
Guest
What the verse?
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Not saying that at all. Let me ask a different question.
How did you become a non Catholic Christian?
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kaycee
Guest
Ok, no problem, i take it that your on the “Hi Ho, Hi Ho” road.
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rlg94086
Guest
Indeed, but they don’t really know, do they? If Scott Hahn was predestined as one of the Elect, then perhaps the Catholic Church is the true means given by God? Boy, I hope they don’t get that one wrong. Otherwise, the ones who think they were one of the Elect will find out Dr. Hahn was and they blew it! …not that they could do anything about it, since they were predestined for hell.
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rlg94086
Guest
The verse makes senes, it is you who didn’t make sense. You said that in your humble opinion Welderman wasn’t “saved” and then gave the verse in parenthesis. It absolutely infers that you believe that a person who becomes Catholic has left Christ’s Church.
I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior and believed that He died on the Cross for my sins and rose again. I still believe that, of course, but now I also accept all of the other teachings of the Bible and the Church Christ established through St. Peter.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
What is that?Ok, no problem, i take it that your on the “Hi Ho, Hi Ho” road.
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