Why do Protestants say Catholicism leads to hell?

[rlg94086]

What is that?

I think it is a sophomoric reference to the 7 dwarfs “…off to work we go…”

 

[kaycee]

The verse makes senes, it is you who didn’t make sense. You said that in your humble opinion Welderman wasn’t “saved” and then gave the verse in parenthesis. It absolutely infers that you believe that a person who becomes Catholic has left Christ’s Church.

What I said was

IMHO you were never “saved” (1 John 2:19) Or you are in error but will eventually persevere. In reality no one can accurately answer the question but the Lord

 

[guanophore]

Now that your “on the road”, what are you actually doing to get salvation?

“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; 16 that no one be immoral…” Heb 12:13-16

 

[qui_est_ce]

I think it is a sophomoric reference to the 7 dwarfs “…off to work we go…”

You believe you are saved by works? That’s not RC teaching. That’s not even Catholic Teaching.

 

[RobbyS]

Predestination in Catholic theology has very limited consequences, which is why Catholics have been able to agree to disagree (well, also because the Pope told them to agree to disagree–one of the more obvious benefits of having a Pope!). However, in Calvinism predestination does have a lot of consequences. For instance, because they think only the elect are ever regenerate they must deny baptismal regeneration (since they naturally aren’t willing to argue that we can know that all the baptized are elect). Or again, if they want to avoid antinomianism (which most of them do) they must say that the elect will behave in a particular way (as I’ve pointed out). It therefore follows that if you commit a serious sin it may be evidence that you are not elect. This is far more terrifying than in Catholicism, where you can always repent. Try reading some of the more vitriolic Calvinist attacks on Scott Hahn, for instance (or don’t and say you did–it will be better for your soul!). They can’t say that he was once a believer and has now fallen away, but their view of post-Tridentine Catholicism won’t let them say that he is still a believer (this is not true of all Calvinists, but of the really conservative types that Hahn used to hang out with), and they are too realistic to have any significant hope that he will ever return to the “true faith.” So they must say that he was never really a believer, and even that he never really understood what the Gospel is all about.

Edwin

To give them credit, the Calvinists do remind us that the fallenaway were a great problem for the early Church. Which was a reason why many were not baptised until on the point of death. Those who buckled under persecution were really denounced. As by the Donatists. Kind of hard to understand Augustine’s teachings except with reference to them. Come to think of it, weren’t the Scotch Presbyterians like the Donatists? Of course, there was the Pelagian controversy, of which Calvin seem more aware. Did he ever write anything on Donatus?

 

[qui_est_ce]

What I said was

IMHO you were never “saved” (1 John 2:19) Or you are in error but will eventually persevere. In reality no one can accurately answer the question but the Lord

So becoming Catholic is to be in error? By what authority do you speak?

 

[guanophore]

Well, I assume that you do not know your final destination? In RC theology that would be the sin of presumption, i believe?

What are you doing to get to heaven?

There are many things that we can know. One is that, if we keep His commandments, Christ abides in us, and we in Him.

1 John 3:24
24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

We can know that, if we are growing in godly character, we will be of more use to God in this life:

2 Peter 1:4-8
5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Predestination in Catholic theology has very limited consequences, which is why Catholics have been able to agree to disagree (well, also because the Pope told them to agree to disagree–one of the more obvious benefits of having a Pope!).

My understanding of the Catholic view of predestination is that God predestined everyone for Heaven and that Jesus died for everyone, included non-believers. Unfortunately, some use their free will and do not cooperate with God’s plan of salvation. These are the branches that are pruned from the vine and thrown into the fire.

 

[rlg94086]

You believe you are saved by works? That’s not RC teaching. That’s not even Catholic Teaching.

No, I don’t believe I am saved by works. I was expaining kaycee’s use of “Hi Ho.” He/she thinks that is what Catholics believe.

 

[qui_est_ce]

No, I don’t believe I am saved by works. I was expaining kaycee’s use of “Hi Ho.” He/she thinks that is what Catholics believe.

Well, KayCee was referring the the Roman Rite teachings, which of course would follow the Catholic Teaching that we are saved by God’s Grace alone.

 

[rlg94086]

What I said was

IMHO you were never “saved” (1 John 2:19) Or you are in error but will eventually persevere. In reality no one can accurately answer the question but the Lord

Right. What does the quote refer to then? What did you think that Welderman “left?” It is obvious what you meant by that post, and now you are backpedalling to try to cover up your uncharitable inference.

The adding of “you are in error but will eventually persevere” means what? He will only be saved if he **does **something else, like turn away from the Catholic Church?

 

[guanophore]

And in concrete terms, how does one get more grace? Is is just praying to God for grace?

One can grow in grace through humility:

James 4:5-6
6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

What would fear and trembling in todays world look like? Examples?

Is this relevant to the topic? Catholics believe that we are to be Christ in the world. It is grace that enables us to bear fruit in our lives, giving testimony to HIm, and to make his way known to those who know Him not. Do you think such thinking condemns Catholics to hell?

 

[rlg94086]

Well, KayCee was referring the the Roman Rite teachings, which of course would follow the Catholic Teaching that we are saved by God’s Grace alone.

Oh, my apologies. I didn’t realize kaycee was encouraging me to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[kaycee]

No, I don’t believe I am saved by works. I was expaining kaycee’s use of “Hi Ho.” He/she thinks that is what Catholics believe.

No, not saying that by works only is what RC’s believe. It’s Faith and Works for the RC.

What is meant by Faith for RC’s? It is not the same definition for evangelicals.

 

[rlg94086]

No, not saying that by works only is what RC’s believe. It’s Faith and Works for the RC.

What is meant by Faith for RC’s? It is not the same definition for evangelicals.

Which evangelicals…you all agree on everything 100% now?

You are correct of course. The Catholic Church and the Bible both teach that Faith and Works go together.

 

[kaycee]

One can grow in grace through humility:

James 4:5-6
6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

Can you define the RC concept of grace?

Is this relevant to the topic? Catholics believe that we are to be Christ in the world. It is grace that enables us to bear fruit in our lives, giving testimony to HIm, and to make his way known to those who know Him not. Do you think such thinking condemns Catholics to hell?

No I dont think that, I believe we are all saved by Grace thru Faith. Trying to add works to merit heaven is not the Gospel of Grace.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Which evangelicals…you all agree on everything 100% now?

You are correct of course. The Catholic Church and the Bible both teach that Faith and Works go together.

Well, you’re a convert, so you probably know more then me , but I was taught that faith is a verb. We must LIVE our faith.

 

[guanophore]

No, not saying that by works only is what RC’s believe. It’s Faith and Works for the RC.

What is meant by Faith for RC’s? It is not the same definition for evangelicals.

I think it is the same, in most cases. Catholcism teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith. The faith that mixes with grace resulting in salvation is a faith that works.

Can you define the RC concept of grace?

No I dont think that, I believe we are all saved by Grace thru Faith. Trying to add to that to merit heaven is not the Gospel of Grace.

I think a more accurate way of representing it is that we bear fruits that befit repentance, and that we try to live a live worthy of the calling to which we have been called. Catholics don’t see that living a life if saving grace is separate from being justified by that same grace.

It is not “meriting” heaven, but allowing the merit of heaven to manifest it’s life within us in the present.

1 Thess 2:11-12
"…we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you 12 to lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory. "

We have been saved by grace, for the purpose of doing holy works. The grace that saves us is the same grace that works within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

 

[rlg94086]

Well, you’re a convert, so you probably know more then me , but I was taught that faith is a verb. We must LIVE our faith.

Pretty much the same…see guanophore’s description in post above.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Can you define the RC concept of grace?

Not sure about RC, but the CATHOLIC Church says that Grace is a gift freely given, and unmerited.

No I dont think that, I believe we are all saved by Grace thru Faith. Trying to add to that to merit heaven is not the Gospel of Grace.

Well, you’re adding faith to the Gospel of Grace. That’s not Biblical.