Why do Protestants separate Jesus Christ and His Church?

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Hahaha, very funny…

If the Holy Spirit only instructs the Vicar of Christ, then why were all those in the Upper Room filled with the Holy Spirit; speaking in tongues, preaching in languages foreign to them, and other miracles?

Does no one have an answer to my previous post? Did everyone think it was too uncomfortable to answer? Is there not one Catholic who can answer?
 
Vocatio,

I appreciate your testimony. Good stuff there.

It’s hard to tell someone they’re mistaken without offending…you seem to do a pretty good job.

May your tribe increase.
 
"SearchForGod Previous Post Question:
Therefore, I press you to ask yourself and others who are your Catholic brethren, what has the Church done to turn away its members that they would start their own “church”?

If the Holy Catholic Church is the “true church” then I don’t want to miss it. Right now, I’m very far from convinced.
Does no one have an answer to my previous post? Did everyone think it was too uncomfortable to answer? Is there not one Catholic who can answer?
I hope I can help you answer your question. Within your previous post you indicated Luther’s disallusionment with sinful priests, etc. and my reply is that the Church dealt with a heresy called Donatism which claimed that validity of the Sacraments depended upon the moral character of the priest or bishop who administered them. The bishop who started this movement, Donatus, put forth this heretical teaching when a fellow bishop denied his faith in the wake of persecution and henceforth said that particular bishop wasn’t worthy to administer the sacraments as a result.

The problem with this thinking is that we are all sinners and to be perfect in moral character would probably disqualify all bishops from administering the Sacraments.

We can’t stop people from starting their own churches. The Catholic Church has the responsibility to uphold the teachings of Jesus Christ. If people don’t like what they hear, they can do what Donatus did and many other perhaps well-intentioned (at first) reformers and try to go about changing things they don’t particularly care for regarding the Church’s teaching on their own. The results of going it alone are tragic.

God bless you on your journey. 🙂
 
Hahaha, very funny…

If the Holy Spirit only instructs the Vicar of Christ, then why were all those in the Upper Room filled with the Holy Spirit; speaking in tongues, preaching in languages foreign to them, and other miracles?

Does no one have an answer to my previous post? Did everyone think it was too uncomfortable to answer? Is there not one Catholic who can answer?
Those in the Upper Room were Bishops and deciples united.

You also failed to mention that is was Peter who was the first to proclaim the Gospel to the crowd.

Acts 2:14
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd:
 
And I will quote from Our Lord; "“And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able”
Yes, and I think many of those who will not enter by the narrow gate will be “churchmen” who have felt complacent and secure in the “letter” of the law rather than the “spirit.”


Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day."
And, one can eat His flesh and drink His blood to their condemnation as well, if charity does not reign in their heart.
I would have accepted these words of Jesus without questioning.
You are sure? Maybe Our Lord will need your help in judging souls at the last judgement! You seem to be quite sure of yourself regarding my relationship with Our Lord in the eucharist! If you don’t mind, that’s between Our Lord and my soul. I think I’ll leave that “pearl of great price” secure from your “rantings.”
Jesus told them to sin no more. He was quite judgemental. My neighbors ARE living in adultery. Watered down morality will not get you into heaven
Neither will phariseeism!

.
You have a liberal view of salvation. I do not.
No, I have a merciful view of salvation; you have brought God down to your size…fortunately for all of us, He is much bigger than you imagine.
This is anti-Catholic nonsense. The Church did not conspire. A politically motivated trial by the Duke of Bedford convicted her of heresy not the Church.Please post your so-called source.
Does Bishop Cauchon’s name ring a bell? In case you weren’t aware, he made a big splash for the church in the conspiracy to kill her. Twenty four years later the Church rescinded her conviction. Again, you haven’t answered my question, would you have been standing up against the church, for her vindication?
So you are your own Pope? You have the Holy Spirit guiding you?
I think you are putting words in my mouth with that one!

The most powerful argument for the reality of sin in the institutional church, is Our Lord’s own life. The church leaders of His day condemned Him for about everything that violated the “letter” of the law. Over and over again he admonished them to “have eyes to see” spiritually, not legalistically, but “they would not.” So saddened was He over this lack of understanding that He wept, as He overlooked Jerusalem. Nothing has changed since then with “churchmen.”
When has the Church back tracked?
You’ve got to be kidding! Suffice it to say that Pope John Paul II was compelled to seek forgiveness for the Church, over the sins against the Jews and the sacking of Constantinople, for example, which, on his part, demonstrated humility and contrition; not a bad state of mind for a Christian of any denomination.
Guide you to believe that contraception is morally right with God? Guide you to believe that multiple marriages are morally right with God?
No. But I am quite confident that souls who are engaged in either or both are still more holy than I. Have you ever read Dante’s Divine Comedy? He was a pious catholic…many of the souls he places in the Inferno were churchmen!
They ALL, (the Protestants) believe that God is talking to them. He is not.
You are quite sure of that?

Regarding “the keys” and Peter, etc; I, as an Orthodox, see no problem with the chair of Peter being “first, among equals,” beyond that, no. However, we must remember that Peter, who, was, after all, a sinful man like the rest of us, did betray Our Lord, and, if Paul had given in to Peter’s views in the first years of the church, not many gentiles would have converted since we would all have to abide by Jewish law!

Actually, from your words, I would conclude, you are probably more assured of your own salvation and others perdition, than the Pope is of his own salvation!
 
quote: SearchForGod
I think it’s quite bold and offensive to simply blame Protestants for the division of the catholic church/universal church.
…Therefore, I press you to ask yourself and others who are your Catholic brethren, what has the Church done to turn away its members that they would start their own “church”?
I pose the following questions and offer observations, in reply.
    • For 5000 years, God was held to be one. Monotheism.
      “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.”
      Now we are urged to worship Him as triune.
2.- What of St. Paul? Did Saul of Tarsus simply switch
enthusiams?
And whence came his claim of “Original Sin?”
    • Since the church - that claims the perpetual guidance of the third Person of the Trinity - created the very documents on which this claim is based - what we got here is a hefty instance of circular reasoning.
  1. Now, centuries after these documents were written,
    there are roughly one billion Roman Catholics, and near a
    billion other human beings who claim that their own church is the true Christian church - wherein one is to acknowlege Jesus as his/her Savior, and where one is to seek a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
5.- Tradition and Scripture. Scripture alone. While much of the world says “…Whatever.”
  1. Roughly 5 out of 7 human beings, this date, heed not the claims of any Christian denomination. And this - 2000 years after Christ walked the earth.
    A rather dismal record, if one’s task in each generation is to proclaim God’s existence and His care of us.
It is all gift. God places us in His world at a given moment in time, as He wills.

What does not seem to change, or suffer buffeting by the various partisans of each denomination, is the fact that God told us to love Him with our whole heart, mind and strength. That strength is vitiated by intramural wrangling.

I do not expect to see a cessation of this intramural sport any time soon. Just the other day, two groups of clerics from two different denominations, were flailing away at one another -
because the ladder that was being used by one denomination, for cleaning the Church of the Nativity, happened to be braced on the “part” of that Church held by clerics of another denomination.
So the birth of the Prince of Peace had hardly been fully commemorated, before the infighting began.

Deck the halls with boughs of folly. :coffeeread:

reen12
 
Still no answer from Protestants except one who said that this is the first he heard of it.
Why do catholics say when someone who becomes a catholic that they have “come home” instead of rejoicing in the salvation that comes only through Christ?
“Coming home i.e. to the catholic church” implies that other protestant churches are not homes. Would this be correct?
 
Why do catholics say when someone who becomes a catholic that they have “come home” instead of rejoicing in the salvation that comes only through Christ?
“Coming home i.e. to the catholic church” implies that other protestant churches are not homes. Would this be correct?
That is a **different topic **itself. SOOO I won’t answer your question.
 
Bump

Hi all

As a former catholic I can relate to what all Catholics are saying.
I understand the foundation of the belief of the church. It mainly hinges on one verse in the bible where Jesus said to Peter
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church ; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven
Matthew 16:18,19

Looking thru RC’s eyes…

RC’s see Peter as the “rock” as the first Pope given the keys to heaven, and so the apostolic succession started Peter the pope and the other apostles. Everyone in the apostolic chain from the priests to the bishops up to the pope teach and lead the catholic church (Jesus church) just the way Jesus extablished in the beginning with Peter.

Since you and I can look at the same verse in the same bible we can get 2 different meanings. Let’s look at the verse through non RC Christian’s eyes…

They see Peter not as the “Rock” but as the first leader to build Jesus’ Church on the “rock” which is truth and the word of God.

The focus is off fallible man in Peter but on the infallible word of God which is solid like a rock.

All future pastors of non RC church’s are called by the Holy Spirit
to plant a church an the same foundation “Rock”, the word of God as Peter did.

also how can fallible man be referred to as a rock which is solid?
also later in Matthew Jesus repeats the same keys to heaven to ALL the apostles as he did to Peter. So now Peter is on the same level as the rest of the apostles
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Matt 18:18
Without getting into too much detail, it wasn’t until I stepped away from all the teaching of the RC church and asked myself…
"Is this what God intended, what happens to those who will never set one foot in a RC church’?..
Is when I found out something I never new.

The Holy Spirit who I told guided the priests ===>> pope in the way of Jesus’ church is the same Holy Spirit who lives right inside each one of our hearts.

Here are some comments off this thread…
So you are your own Pope? You have the Holy Spirit guiding you?
Not that we are a pope, but the Holy Spirit is a living “guidance counselor” who loves and cares for each one of us and wants to build a personal relationship with you and I.
Catholics know what the “church” is. It is not the building you go to. It is us, collectively as a people.
Absolutely agree 100%. I teach Sunday school, and my favorite lesson to my 3rd graders is asking them to draw God’s church.
They all draw beautiful colorful buildings. I may get 1 or 2 that will draw a group of people with no building which I then use as an illustration for the lesson. By the end of the class all the kids say “we are the church, the believers of our Lord Jesus Christ”
The Church is a living organism, it is the body and bride of Christ (hope you can understand that ! It is both visible and invisible It consist of all true beleivers
Jesus Christ is the Church. He is the Head, and we are members of His Body, the Church.
Absolutely

cont…
 
why do many protestants see personal relationship with Christ instead of corporate?
As I mentioned above, everyone has their own personal guide in the Holy Spirit guiding leading you in the way God created you.
You may be led to be a teacher in your church and whatever your job is on the outside, whereas as I may be led to be an usher and led in a different occupation than you.
We are not in this alone, the Bible is clear about this. Christ came to save the world.
I absolutely agree, not only is the Holy Spirit personal but the joy and love of God can dramatically be felt at a church gathering during a Sunday and wednesday worship service
I mean I heard Protestants from Evangelical side often say, “I have a personal relationship with Jesus, I don’t need the Church.” or “I don’t go to Church, it’s just me and Jesus.” These lines are more in common in Protestantism, than Catholicism.
The “Me and Jesus” thing is an American concept, perhaps born of our individualism, perhaps of our lack of concern for others.
Wow 😦 Sorry someone represented Jesus in that way.
Jesus is as much part of me as He is a part of anyone else. Jesus does not play favorites. I will say this, if you have met a Christian who sends a selfish I have Jesus to myself attitude, on behalf of that christian, please accept my apology. That is not the Jesus I know
Protestants simply want to reject whatever is they don’t want to believe and then make-up some believe-system to support their wants.
I addressed that above
you can also have 100 people standing at different locations of an intersection and witness the same accident. I can promise you there will be 100 different witness reports turned in to the police.
each witness climing they were right in what they saw.

Hard job for police to make an accurate report.
they all agree there was an accident, how it exactly happened presents a huge problem

we all agree God is our creator. What happened after creation and how it happened, who said what…you get my meaning
Protestants are our “separated brothers and sisters”. They do NOT hold the fullness of the truth.
They have left the Church which Christ established. They are members of the Body of Christ - but not members of His Church. They don’t have the fullness of faith.
I am sorry you feel that way, I believe I am very much part of Jesus’ church. I know RC will argue that point.
Is it possible that RC’s have within them the truth which all other Christians have, the difference being RC’s have added to the truth that other Christians do not see as necessary to fullfill the will of God.

Look at my “tired of debating” thread and then tell me I do not have Jesus in my heart. Jesus is the “Rock” the truth. Even though the church I am a member is not RC, as soon as I open the doors of our church building, the prescence of God surrounds me in a way that I have never felt in a RC church. And it is not me, I give God all the glory. Our pastor at times would read comment cards from visitors…

A common theme on the cards is people writing down the environment pesented when they visited our church they felt so welcomed and loved that they felt like they had died and went to heaven. It touches my heart every time I here that, it was the same way I felt when I visited the first time and still feel that way
A lot of people come in with heavy burdens and the grace of God intervened and lifted their burdens from them.

you are invited to visit if you are in the area

clconline.org

I apsolutely agree with the following IF RC church was not implied

There is only one Church and that Church is the Church of Christ [scriptural]. God adds to the church too. Being added means you are baptized into Christ by being burried in water.

immersed not sprinkled, I absolutely agree

May all agree on the love joy peace and truth of our Lord Jesus Christ

Thank you and God bless

truth
 
Vocatio,

I appreciate your testimony. Good stuff there.

It’s hard to tell someone they’re mistaken without offending…you seem to do a pretty good job.

May your tribe increase.
Ditto. Very nice testimony. Thanks for the Church of Christ perspective. 👍
 
I have a question for Protestants, why do you separate Jesus Christ and His Church?
I don’t subscribe to this belief. But, my definition of “The Church” is every believer of Christ, no matter what the sign on your church says.
 
Hi all,

I wanted to let you all know that I am wrong for coming to this site and sending a “I am right you are wrong” message.

I ask you to forgive me if I have said anything that may ave caused hurt feelings.

I will no longer be posting on this thread. It is obvious that we see God’s will through different “lenses”

We can debate our viewpoints and beliefs from know until whenever and nothing will change.

Quite frankly, I realize debating here is just like a chess match which ends in a stalemate. A lot of time and effort and the end result is no different from where the game started.

Having said that. I believe the answer lies within Jesus and what His will is.

I believe in order to settle a debate…Jesus, (the mediator), would encourage us first to see our similiarities and not our differences. I do not see any other better way to accompish God’s will for us and that is to have a one united church body in Jesus’ name.

That is why I started a “tired of debating lets agree on Jesus” thread. In that thread, Mark A was an example of let us first see our similiarities.

In closing thank you all for your feedback. It has been a wonderful learning experience about why everyone believes in the way they do.

I believe each and everyone of you are a champion in God’s eyes.

My prayer is that the champion which God designed in you may be realized one day as God works His miracles in your lives.

God bless you all,

truth
 
That was very nice whatisthetruth. 👍

Even though many of these threads end in chess-like stalemates, it doesn’t take away from the fact that a friendly game was played in the first place. If we don’t interact with one another we cannot get to truly know and respect one another.

Peace be with you.
 
MrStain
That was very nice whatisthetruth.
Even though many of these threads end in chess-like stalemates, it doesn’t take away from the fact that a friendly game was played in the first place. If we don’t interact with one another we cannot get to truly know and respect one another.
Peace be with you.
Thank you Mr.Stain, I felt myself getting caught up with “me”, and I know it began to show in my posts. People deserve better than that.

By believing in Jesus, I take a moral responsibility of respresenting Him in every way that is humanly possible.
the reason for backing away from debating. Jesus is a man of peace not “__________”

God :blessyou:

truth
 
@ whatisthetruth,

There is a John Milton quote which speaks to this issue:

“Though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to blow upon the earth,
So Truth, be in the field,
We do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting, to misdoubt her strength,
Let Truth and Falsehood grapple;
For who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter.”

Lady Wisdom is up to the challenge!
 
you are invited to visit if you are in the area

clconline.org
I visited your link. I can’t find anything on it about what your Church believes. Would you be kind enough to anwser my questions?
Does your Church teach that if you divorce and remarry you have committed adultry?
If you marry someone that is divorced have you committed adultry?
Is contraception a grave sin?
Is the act of homosexuality a grave sin?
Is pre-maritial sex a grave sin?
Does your Church believe “once saved, always saved?”
Does your Church have communion and if it does is it the Real Physical Presence or Symbolic Presence of Christ?
Thank you
 
quote: SearchForGod

I pose the following questions and offer observations, in reply.
    • For 5000 years, God was held to be one. Monotheism.
      “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.”
      Now we are urged to worship Him as triune.
2.- What of St. Paul? Did Saul of Tarsus simply switch
enthusiams?
And whence came his claim of “Original Sin?”
    • Since the church - that claims the perpetual guidance of the third Person of the Trinity - created the very documents on which this claim is based - what we got here is a hefty instance of circular reasoning.
  1. Now, centuries after these documents were written,
    there are roughly one billion Roman Catholics, and near a
    billion other human beings who claim that their own church is the true Christian church - wherein one is to acknowlege Jesus as his/her Savior, and where one is to seek a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
5.- Tradition and Scripture. Scripture alone. While much of the world says “…Whatever.”
  1. Roughly 5 out of 7 human beings, this date, heed not the claims of any Christian denomination. And this - 2000 years after Christ walked the earth.
    A rather dismal record, if one’s task in each generation is to proclaim God’s existence and His care of us.
It is all gift. God places us in His world at a given moment in time, as He wills.

What does not seem to change, or suffer buffeting by the various partisans of each denomination, is the fact that God told us to love Him with our whole heart, mind and strength. That strength is vitiated by intramural wrangling.

I do not expect to see a cessation of this intramural sport any time soon. Just the other day, two groups of clerics from two different denominations, were flailing away at one another -
because the ladder that was being used by one denomination, for cleaning the Church of the Nativity, happened to be braced on the “part” of that Church held by clerics of another denomination.
So the birth of the Prince of Peace had hardly been fully commemorated, before the infighting began.

Deck the halls with boughs of folly. :coffeeread:

reen12
To be honest, what you said made no sense to me at all.

What I do understand is that I’ve been disgraced twice now and no one seems to care except me…

I don’t understand it, just because I don’t agree with you on everything- does that make it okay to insult me?

What kind of testimony is that? How is that Christ-like? Sure, we all make mistakes and no one here is perfect, but honestly… There seems to be a consistent level of bashing and insults to those who don’t agree with Catholics…

I’m trying to find out whether Catholicism is the true Christian faith, but how can I believe that when I’ve got people spitting on me and shoving bull up my ***?!
 
Those in the Upper Room were Bishops and deciples united.
Disciples.

Where does it say that they were bishops?
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reen12:
Deck the halls with boughs of folly.
Goodness, “If you don’t have something nice to say, then don’t say it at all.”

Next time I want your rude comments I’ll pass and let my three siblings injure me with their filthy words… I’ve got enough enemies as it is; I certainly don’t need another bloody Christian insulting me because I don’t share your views.

How many times am I going to say this?! I AM A PROTESTANT SEEKING THE TRUTH! IF CATHOLICISM IS THE WAY THEN I DON’T WANT TO MISS IT!!!

But I want to be sure… I don’t want to become Catholic, get cold feet, and then run back to my Protestant church. I want to know exactly what it is I believe when/if I become Catholic so that when my family and friends (especially my bestest female friend) ask me why it is that I have converted that I can defend my new found faith.
40.png
Mannyfit75:
Still no answer from Protestants except one who said that this is the first he heard of it.
Comments like that aren’t conducive to the discussion. Would you like Protestants responding in anger or responding because they think they have something valuable to contribute?

It’s all the in the way you say things. Honestly, I’m quite upset right now and I’m trying to watch what I say. I just got off of work and had a frustrating day; come on here and what do I get? People are fighting with each other… You’re brothers and sisters! You’re serving the same God! You answer to the same Ultimate Authority!!! How can you tear each other part?!

Oi… I’m going to stop before I swear or say something really offensive.
 
You misunderstand what VWcrazy means.

He never said every single Protestant was danmed, he merely stated that by their own will Protestants have seperated themselves from the Church Jesus Christ founded.
most protestants never even considered the Catholic Chruch, nor know what it teaches, therefore it is impossible for them to have personally separated themselves from it on purpose.

Quoting the Catechism only partially helped your case.
Every person baptized in the Triune formula is in partial communion with Christ. They become Christians, so that destroys VWcrazy’s argument about not having an invisible Church (as long as you restrict the definition to a mystical and spiritual union) but a spiritual and mystical union cannot be seen by the world to who we endeavor to save.
My only point was that there is an invisible Church. Here you admit there is one too. so we agree.
The second quote merely reiterates the fact that those who are seeking full communion in the Church but fail to recieve baptism can attain Salvation either by baptism of dersire (wanting to be baptized because they know it was a requirement for salvation) or by baptism by blood (dying in defence of some aspect of the faith).

The third is simply stating that those who never knew Christ can still attain salvation but this is do to their ignorance of the truth.
just two types of people who can be part of the “invisible church”
If one who claims to be a christian but willingly refuse to embrace Christ’s Church they can be found guilty of sin.
That has nothing to do with my point. And how do you claim to know who has “willingly refused to embrace Christ’s Church” and who hasn’t? You don’t because you cannont see their hearts.
One has a responsibility to seek the truth. 33,000 denominations is intolerable. We all hope that everyone finds their way to the Father, however you go to him under his conditions and not your own.
If you are a Protestant you have to ask yourself does my church really have all the revelation given to man by God?

Does it believe what 1st century Christians can be historically shown to believe?

If the Church Christ founded had Bishops, Priest and Deacons what valid reason does my Church have to do away with them and who said it could?
  1. You don’t know if I have sought those things or not.
  2. Regardless of your excuses for doing it, your use of the 33,000 denominations thing does nothing except annoy the protestants who read it. All my inclination to pay any attention to what you say is now gone. You have shown you don’t know what you are talking about on one point, so why would I think you do about other things? if 33,000 is accurate why does the Catholic Church have over 2,000 denominations? And why does that make you unified and not me? And if you really have a good point (and I think you do) why quote **** evidence when there is plenty of good evidence out there?
 
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