Why do Protestants separate Jesus Christ and His Church?

[c659smith]

Syele,

What does the Catholic Church teach? If one does not know who’s fault is that?

Did not Jesus say to search out the truth.

Did Pilot not ask Jesus what is truth and what was Jesus’s remark?

“Most protestants never even considered the Catholic Chruch, nor know what it teaches, therefore it is impossible for them to have personally separated themselves from it on purpose”

By not seeking the truth when one has the opportunity one is seperating oneself on purpose.

Do we not learn the Old Testament (Hebrew laws) before the new covenant or does one read the end of a story and then start at the beginning.

Does not one learn of the early Universal Church before finding any life in the new.

I do not know about you all but once the Holy Spirit hit me I was and am like a sponge to find new truths and insights. The doors of the Catholic Church are open to all.

The more truth I learn the more I am convinced the Catholic Church has the fullness of Jesus’s Church.

 

[holy_wood]

Disciples.

Where does it say that they were bishops?

Acts 1:

15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

16Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Get it? Matthias was a replacement for Judas. He became a Bishop and the first example of Apostolic Succession.

 

[Syele]

Syele,

What does the Catholic Church teach? If one does not know who’s fault is that?

Did not Jesus say to search out the truth.

Did Pilot not ask Jesus what is truth and what was Jesus’s remark?

“Most protestants never even considered the Catholic Chruch, nor know what it teaches, therefore it is impossible for them to have personally separated themselves from it on purpose”

By not seeking the truth when one has the opportunity one is seperating oneself on purpose.

Do we not learn the Old Testament (Hebrew laws) before the new covenant or does one read the end of a story and then start at the beginning.

Does not one learn of the early Universal Church before finding any life in the new.

I do not know about you all but once the Holy Spirit hit me I was and am like a sponge to find new truths and insights. The doors of the Catholic Church are open to all.

The more truth I learn the more I am convinced the Catholic Church has the fullness of Jesus’s Church.

So have you sought out EVERY possible denomination/religion promising they have the truth over the others? I doubt you have, you believe you have the Truth already. The same goes for the protestants I was referring to. It is not even a reasonable task to have researched everything every church and religion teaches. I spend lot of time learning about beliefs other than my own. I don’t think I am in the majority though. Sure you meant only the Catholic one, but anyone researching would be remiss to jsut pick ONE to study.

God knows who desires the real Truth in their hearts and who is just sitting around not really caring if they are right or not. I think it’s presumptuous of anyone to say they know the hearts of people based on the particular church they attend. The fact they go at all shows they have SOME desire to know about God. SO they at least get a benefit of the doubt for me that they at least care a little.

To say “Protestants separate Jesus Christ and His Church” makes too many assumptions that are just too far off the mark for it to be accurate.

 

[holy_wood]

To say “Protestants separate Jesus Christ and His Church” makes too many assumptions that are just too far off the mark for it to be accurate.

How about we say those Protestants that advocate a personal relationship with Christ minus participation in the visible Church he established fit in the category?

 

[c659smith]

Syele

I have read the Koran and read the Torah and Listened to both sides and their perspectives.

I have learned about numerous protestant and anglican churches.
Have entered their churches and was not impressed.

Yes there is a lot of what I call commardre but then again there is the the U.S. Military but it is not church.

I have read their history and find most of the reasons for seperation or continued seperation pitiful from the mother church.

I pray and hope they find in their journey the way back home. Having the fullness of faith,scripture,and tradition.

I’M ok and Your Ok mentality is alot of hogwash and most who disagree today with their Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican. Metodist, etc… will just make another branch that gains not fruit. Or today they will just join one of the megga churches and have to answer to nobody and follow no rules here on earth. Just be good. Well an atheist can be good but that’s not getting him to heaven,

I heard someone knocking on the door and asked who it was and said I do not know you go away.

People know it is wrong we are born with a concious unlike animals and as such seek the truth unless we do not like what we may find.

I bet if it was 10.00 short on a paycheck the majority would seek out the truth and make sure it was corrected.

 

[holy_wood]

I bet if it was 10.00 short on a paycheck the majority would seek out the truth and make sure it was corrected.

lol, thats true.

 

[paarsurrey]

There has been a saying between Catholics and Protestants regarding this issue.
It is said: “Evangelical Protestants believe in Jesus Christ, while Catholics believe in the Church.”
Isn’t this a false dichotomy?

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.

I am certain that there is some misunderstanding in it. I have met Protestants and Catholics, both of them believe in Jesus and also the church. Both have so many churches to worship. To be positive this only means that at their hearts of heart, they both wish to unite into one. This would naturally require sacrifices on both sides as no religious unity is possible on compromises, it could be only unity on truth, which must be ONE.

Thanks

 

[reen12]

Originally Posted by reen12
*Deck the halls with boughs of folly. :coffeeread: *

quote: SearchForGod

Goodness, “If you don’t have something nice to say, then don’t say it at all.”

Next time I want your rude comments I’ll pass and let my three siblings injure me with their filthy words… I’ve got enough enemies as it is; I certainly don’t need another bloody Christian insulting me because I don’t share your views

Uh…if you will read the tagline on my post, you will note
that I say that I pray to the G-d of my childhood.

I am neither “bloody” nor currrently a Christian.
Some days I am, some days I am not.
I think it has something to do with the weather.

I do take being referred to as a “bloodly Christian”
with a turn the cheek attitude, however.

The “folly” to which I referred was an altercation between
clerics of two different Christian denominations - which took place
in the Church of the Nativity, following Christmas day.
I do stand by my assessment.

And, for the record, I did wish to note that it was
Theodore Roosevelt’s cousin - Alice Longworthy Roosevelt -
who had an embroidered pillow, which she placed on
the couch where she often sat.
The embroidered words were:

“If you can’t say something nice about somebody -
come sit next to me.”

I wish you well in your journey, SearchForGod. :tiphat:

reen12

 

[c659smith]

Reen12,

Who insulted you?

So some days you are Christian and some days you are not is very interesting.

Is it comfort level.?

Is it not wanting to submit there is someone more greater than yourself?

I did not see anyone here insultng you if they did show me where?

 

[reen12]

My original post on this thread is post #65.
My 2nd post is post #86.

In post #65, I wrote:

quote: reen12

So the birth of the Prince of Peace had hardly been fully commemorated, before the infighting began.

Deck the halls with boughs of folly. :coffeeread:

---

I had no idea that being referred to as
“…another bloody Christian…” did not
constitute an insult.

It was probably over-sensitive of me
to think thusly.

Thank you for taking an interest. :tiphat:

reen12

 

[holy_wood]

Um…can we please get back to the debate?

 

[reen12]

holy_wood

Um…can we please get back to the debate?

Surely.

Mayhap I will start another thread - seeking to determine
if calling another a “…bloody Christian…” somehow
fits whatever debate *is *taking place in this thread.

And then to be asked by c659smith:

quote: c659smith

Is it comfort level.?

Is it not wanting to submit there is someone more greater than yourself?

I did not see anyone here insultng you if they did show me where?

“Comfort level”? Perfectly fascinating.

I feel like Mr.Spock landing on a new planet,
trying to learn the customs of the inhabitants thereof.

“…another bloody Christian…” followed by “comfort level.”

Spock returns to the good ship Enterprise.
'It’s odd, Captain. The inhabitants seem to worship
a God of love. Yet I heard one address another as
“…another bloody Christian…,” and when the one called such
protested, there arose a point concerning comfortability."
Most interesting."

I think so too, Mr. Spock.

reen12 :tiphat:

 

[Syele]

Syele

I have read the Koran and read the Torah and Listened to both sides and their perspectives.

I have learned about numerous protestant and anglican churches.
Have entered their churches and was not impressed.

Yes there is a lot of what I call commardre but then again there is the the U.S. Military but it is not church.

I have read their history and find most of the reasons for seperation or continued seperation pitiful from the mother church.

I pray and hope they find in their journey the way back home. Having the fullness of faith,scripture,and tradition.

I’M ok and Your Ok mentality is alot of hogwash and most who disagree today with their Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican. Metodist, etc… will just make another branch that gains not fruit. Or today they will just join one of the megga churches and have to answer to nobody and follow no rules here on earth. Just be good. Well an atheist can be good but that’s not getting him to heaven,

I heard someone knocking on the door and asked who it was and said I do not know you go away.

People know it is wrong we are born with a concious unlike animals and as such seek the truth unless we do not like what we may find.

I bet if it was 10.00 short on a paycheck the majority would seek out the truth and make sure it was corrected.

I do not have a " I’M ok and Your Ok mentality". At the same time, It is not MY place to judge the hearts of people based on the Church they attend or even based on forum posts. I accept that there are real Christians who will be in heaven when they Die who sincerely want to do what God wants of them that also probably Do not believe exactly what I do, even though I believe I have the Truth. IF someone wants to call this group of Christians the “invisible Church” why fight it? I’m in no way claiming everyone is going to heaven or that it doesn’t matter what you believe. I’m saying that God is not looking at the title you have based on where you go on Sunday mornings. He is looking at our Hearts and our Lives and our Faith.

IF you want to say it’s hogwash that a Protestant could have incredible Faith, could live without knowingly breaking any of God’s laws and could truly desire in their hearts to know the truth, then yes I will argue. With God all things are possible. I believe I know the Truth about God. I have studied many churches including ther Catholic church for years. If I ever came to belief the Catholic Church was correct, then I would remiss to not join it. In the meantime. I have to trust God will lead me there if that is where I should be.

Based on me only, I’m going straight to hell. Cause I am far far from perfect. I rely only on the promise of a gift from God to give me hope to get into heaven. And then if I do, it’s His gift, not my earnings. I’m not worried about being $10 short, I’m WAY shorter than that.

 

[MDK]

One of the founding fathers of Protestantism (Martin Lucifer) was mentally ill (manic depressive and obsessive compulsive), and it went on from there.

They want to do things their own way, and are willing to believe anything in order to make it so. It makes no sense.

Protestants say their rule of faith is the Bible alone. Yet what they profess is in direct conflict with Sacred Scriptures. Key and essential teachings and requests of Christ that are in Sacred Scriptures, they don’t profess or keep.

Sola Scriptura is not in the Sacred Scriptures.

Right of private interpretation was refuted in Sacred Scriptures by Peter.

Sola Fide is also refuted in Sacred Scriptures by Paul.

It is impossible in Protestantism to honor Christ’s request that we all be one as He and the Father are One.

Protestants ask us to believe that everyone can be their own pope (i.e. infallible with the help of the Holy Spirit), but get all bent out of shape with the Primacy of St. Peter, which is actually in Scripture.

Protestants are actually in the Bible in one area… namely John 6:67… where people walked away from Christ because they refused to believe what He taught about eating His Flesh and Drink His Blood.

Christ clearly instituted the Eucharist, but Protestants either deny it partially or fully.

There are more…, but essentially Protestantism is at odds with what Christ asked of us and taught us. Although Jesus started only one Church, and advised that He would stay with it until the end of time… Protestants don’t believe Him. Protestants make the error of wanting to change from the doctrine of the true Church when the errors were simply those of discipline and not doctrinal.

I am a Catholic because I believe in Christ and desire to be in the Church that He founded to make Him present to the world, and which He protects from the gates of Hell until the end of time.

Those who quarrel with, lie about, and slander the Church founded by Christ. will push with the gates of Hell… they will be defeated, however. Protestants don’t believe this, though, because they never have listened to Christ anyway, but have always preferred doing what they want and saying it’s what Christ wants. Sounds like Martin Lucifer may have been a good poster child for Protestants.

 

[moondweller]

I have a question for Protestants, why do you separate Jesus Christ and His Church?

There has been a saying between Catholics and Protestants regarding this issue.

It is said: “Evangelical Protestants believe in Jesus Christ, while Catholics believe in the Church.”

Isn’t this a false dichotomy?

Actually, you have a false concept.

In respect to “the body of Christ” (the Church), Protestants don’t separate it from Christ who is the “Head of the body, the church” (Col. 1:18).

But in respect to salvation, unlike Catholics, we don’t "believe in the Church, but the Person of Jesus Christ Himself. He is the object of our faith.

Check your concordance and see how many times Jesus said “Believe in Me…” Not once did He (or His Apostles) say, “Believe in the church.”

 

[c659smith]

you say that you do not believe in Church but yet agree Christ is the head of the Church, well then who is the body. The Apostles Creed is just that a creed written by and agreed to by the Apostles.

The Catholics I beg to differ but do not create replacement theology that was done by the Protestant reformation movement.
This replacement Theology is the reason for so many denominations within the Protestant Movement some 30, 000 and growing daily.

The Apostles Creed has been around since the first century and someone 1400 years later decides to take away or replace what Jesus has handed down.

under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost, each of the Twelve Apostles dictated part of it.[1] It is still traditionally divided into twelve articles.

Because of its early origin, it does not address some Christological issues defined in the later Nicene and other Christian Creeds. This makes it acceptable to many Arians and Unitarians. It also does not address some current issues within Evangelical denominations such as the literal meaning of Genesis chapters 1 to 11; Replacement Theology and approaches to Bible interpretation.

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
born of the Virgin Mary.
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand
of God the Father Almighty.
From thence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Hope you hurry and make the journey back home to the Catholic Church .

God Bless

 

[c659smith]

Moondweller,

Surely you agree that Christ will come again to judge the Living and the Dead.

What does the bible teach will be the rule he will judge aganist.

Revelation 21.11 I saw the dead,the great, and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened, then another scroll was opened, the book of life. the dead were judged according to their deeds

Does this not contradict faith alone?

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller,

Surely you agree that Christ will come again to judge the Living and the Dead.

What does the bible teach will be the rule he will judge aganist.

John 3:17-18 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Revelation 21.11 I saw the dead,the great, and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened, then another scroll was opened, the book of life. the dead were judged according to their deeds

Does this not contradict faith alone?

Notice who are standing before this judgment? I emboldened and underlined it for you.

 

[COGHOBDOJ]

One of the founding fathers of Protestantism (Martin Lucifer) was mentally ill (manic depressive and obsessive compulsive), and it went on from there.

Protestants are actually in the Bible in one area… namely John 6:67… where people walked away from Christ because they refused to believe what He taught about eating His Flesh and Drink His Blood…

Christ clearly instituted the Eucharist, but Protestants either deny it partially or fully…

Protestants don’t believe this, though, because they never have listened to Christ anyway, but have always preferred doing what they want and saying it’s what Christ wants. Sounds like Martin Lucifer may have been a good poster child for Protestants…

First may I comment on some of your references. Forum rules specifically discourage the slander of the “nickname” you’ve given Martin Luther. Not only does it break forum rules, but it borders childishness and immaturity. The Fruit of the Spirit encourages us to have self control and above all love. If you want to reach out, share your beliefs and possible teach those ignorant of your faith, you will be wise to walk in the Spirit of Christ.

I also have a problem with your diagnosis of Martin Luther’s mental illness. My guess is that you read it in a book, composed or authored by someone who didn’t like his views and beliefs and ALSO slandered him, instead of loving Him in the Spirit of Christ. I’m indifferent toward Martin Luther, so I’m not standing up for him. I’m mearly sharing how I believe IMHO, how you can be a more effective communicator.

As for the Eucharist, I read the chapter from the verse you have given. My honest question for understanding and NOT DEBATE is how do you compare this scripture of Jesus calling us to eat His flesh and drink His blood with other scriptures by Jesus telling us to “pluck out our eye” if it causes us to sin or that our faith can “move mountains.”

Is it incorrect to assume both are either literally translated or both are allegory? If one is literal and one is allegory, what indicators guide us to use literal or allegory?

Also, by comparison, Jesus stresses our simple faith in Him multiple times more that He teaches us to eat His flesh and drink His blood. My uneducated guess would mean if he states one more than the other, the one stated the most would be of more importance. So, what are your thoughs on that.

Thanks

 

[MDK]

Yes, it was my first post, and I went back to change it to Martin Luther’s proper name, but cannot any longer. I believe it’s accurate, though to describe his behaviors… as he is one who changed God’s Word, was a heretic, leads people astray, scatters instead of brings together, uses misuses God’s Word… all things Satan does. Although I should not have posted his name as such, I believe it’s fitting.

Regarding his mental illness, I didn’t read it in a book. When I started reading what Martin Luther wrote and taught, my thoughts immediately went to this man is most likely mentally ill. (Please note that while I believe Calvin was wrong, I don’t believe Calvin was mentally ill.) I checked into this, and found sure enough that he was manic depressive, and used to attend confession multiple times a day. His behavior was described as obsessive compulsive. As a result of his problems, people actually credit him for coming up with favorable treatment of the mentally ill. It is this same mental illness, I believe that caused him to come up with Sola Fide, as a better way for him, so he wouldn’t have to go to confession so often. I’ve never heard that theory from anyone else, but it makes sense, because Sola Fide is not only not in the Scriptures, it teaches against it.

The example I gave about the Eucharist is a longer discussion, but clearly Jesus meant what he said and the Jews knew what he meant. Nobody would have walked away if it had simply been a metaphor.

The Catholic Church always uses the literal translation, which is to interpret the way it was meant including historical and cultural context and also the meanings handed down. Protestants use a literalist translation and get into trouble. An example would be “it’s raining cats and dogs.” Two thousand years from now, a Catholic would understand appropriately that culturally that meant “it’s raining hard.” Protestants on the other hand would understand that God sent cats and dogs from the sky. One has to go for the correct meaning at each time, and not just say all are metaphors, or all are not. This is where the Holy Spirit has led the Church. The same can’t be said for thousands of individual Protestant “popes.”

Jesus stresses that we are to follow Him. He has the right to set up a Church and ask us to be in it. He decided to keep us all one by teaching the truth about himself through the pope, and not have it fragmented in thousands of individual interpretations. I will say that the Holy Spirit does not teach anyone in opposition to what He teaches through the pope. Through Protestant thinking, all those who believe in Christ are not one, are not together as He desires. His full message of salvation is distorted and trampled in favor of people’s own preferences. This is no way to respect our Lord.

The collection I offered of Protestant offenses were to show that they don’t make sense. Each one can be discussed in it’s own forum. However, separately, no one notices the trend of doing what they want instead of following Christ.

Although I apologize to the forum for the name change of Martin Luther in the previous post, I believe it is nevertheless an accurate characterization considering his assistance to Satan in scattering the flock and false interpretations of scripture. I stand by what I said regarding Protestantism. It leads people away from Christ’s Church and many think they are getting authentic teachings from the Holy Spirit when they are in not. How many souls are lost through this means?