Why Do Protestants Shun Mary?

[GaryTaylor]

We must all conceded that the Apostles founded the Catholic Church…They developed the main theology of Christianity and safe guarded and compiled the scriptures that we have today Even though ,through Lucifers whiles and schemes many bad judgments and actions were taken in burning books that interfered with what they considered heresy ,such as the gospel of Thomas ]…
However we must all agree that ‘‘all’’ the protestants and many of the breakaway churches sprouted from the Catholic Church , And benefited from it’s many teachings …Which is to be accepted the old tried and tested version of Christ from the scriptures or a new interpretation of Christ by various protestants or break away churches that are more politically correct and remade to fit the world view …as opposed to what the witnesses and apostles declare ?..
I choose the old historic scriptural view .= Catholic view…However due to the infiltration of the freemasons and illuminati I hold no allegiance to the Pope or his cohorts as they are giving false teachings to deceive the faithful…I also do not pray or bow down to the saints …And I desire to keep the real Sabbath holy as Constantine had no right to change the laws of God…Asides from all that I’m still Catholic.

I’m sure you’ll be able to prove this.

However due to the infiltration of the freemasons and illuminati I hold no allegiance to the Pope or his cohorts as they are giving false teachings to deceive the faithful…I also do not pray or bow down to the saints …And I desire to keep the real Sabbath holy as Constantine had no right to change the laws of God…Asides from all that I’m still Catholic.

How about this, any proof?

Even though ,through Lucifers whiles and schemes many bad judgments and actions were taken in burning books that interfered with what they considered heresy ,such as the gospel of Thomas ]…

Conspiracy theory is all I see no facts.

However we must all agree that ‘‘all’’ the protestants and many of the breakaway churches sprouted from the Catholic Church

All, just for the emphasis. And what is your take on the Incarnation of Christ to return to topic. Mary was sinner and God wasn’t. Could you explain the Incarnation from this perspective. How does Christ have a sinless human and divine nature and Mary is a sinner?

Do you believe in the particular and final judgement?

 

[zz912]

Luke records in Acts ch. 1 that Mary was present with the other women and the disciples awaiting the gift of the Spirit. She is given no special recognition. Now if she was the very mother of the church, surely she would have a special and important role at this time.

Singling her out and naming her for specific mention IS special recognition.

Acts 1:14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

Who do you think is more consistent with scripture? Those who give constant attention and veneration to her or those that just recognise her Godly example?

Those who recognize her as the Ark of the New Covenant are more consistent with Scripture.

 

[zz912]

“Shun” is a gross misunderstanding, and thus the statement is a generalization that does not apply to most Protestants. Protestants do hold a different view of Mary.

For example, “Mary is the Queen of Heaven, she is very much alive and is the mediatrix between us and her Son” … comments like this are shunned by most Protestants. This is not shunning Mary, it is shunning a mythological view of Mary. While Protestants revere Mary in the same way we revere other great saints, they do not place her in the goddess role that evolved from early Roman mythology. I Timothy 2:5-6 says “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.” Either this is true or it is not. In the Protestant view, Jesus is the King of heaven and earth, and the only mediator between man and God. The Church (of which Mary is a part) is the only bride of Christ… This leaves no room for a mythological queen.

Roman mythology??? You realize the first Christians wanted nothing to do with the Roman and pagan mythologies, right? Their view on Mary was not influenced by Roman mythologies. It was influenced by what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

As to a Queen of Heaven, you should read your Bible more.

Rev 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

Other statements that strike Protestants as odd (from posts below):

:ehh: “God needed Mary’s ‘‘consent’’ to bear Jesus, making her co-partners in a way”

The God Protestants worship does not need human permission to do anything. Is there any factual basis for this comment? When exactly did God ask Mary for permission? When Mary became pregnant, she did not even know it… an angel had to tell her.

So are you saying that God forced Mary to become pregnant??!?!??!?! That she was impregnated against her will and only informed of it later?!?!?!?!?! I don’t know the sick and twisted God you describe, because that’s not the God we read about in the Bible.

You’re fundamentally misunderstanding the Annunciation. Mary is perplexed about HOW she will become pregnant, since she is a consecrated virgin. She wasn’t a dummy, she, as a married woman, knew how women become pregnant. And yet she was confused, because she was to remain eternally a virgin.

:ehh: "Mary was Ever Virgin, this didn’t only regard her physical condition, it also regarded her spiritual condition, i.e. without sin.

Again, this is great to say, but what is the factual evidence? Scripture tells us of the virgin birth, but says nothing of her being without sin. Further, Scripture does tell us that there was only one who was without sin and that was Christ. Jesus Himself said there is only One who is good (Matt 19:17). Was He wrong? Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." If Mary were without sin, why would she need a Savior? Mary was truly blessed that God chose her for this special role… just as Abraham was blessed to be chosen by God to be the father of Israel. He was described as a righteous man, but we don’t misinterpret that to mean he was sinless.

You’re missing what I noted about the Annunciation. The angel recognizes her with an acclamation reserved to royalty (“Hail!”). He declares that she is completely full of God’s grace, and if you are full of God’s grace you are without any sin. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, and holy. She was saved by God BEFORE she fell into Original Sin or personal sin.

:ehh: [some Catholics call the Virgin Mary co-redemptrix] … The redemption is completely Christ’s, but Mary participates in our redemption by bringing Jesus to us.

A Protestant might say that by this measure, everyone who preaches the gospel is a co-redemptrix/redeemer. Or, everyone that God works through is a co-redemptrix/redeemer. There is only one redeemer… the One who gave His life as a ransom for many… that would be Jesus. We can all rejoice with Mary… “My soul exalts the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."

Yes, anyone who does God’s will is a co-redemptrix to others. God is the one redeemer, but He allows us to participate in the plan of salvation if we choose His will. That is why we are called the Body of Christ. And for Mary, what is special about her is that she is the co-redemptrix to ALL mankind, in that she brought Christ to EVERYONE. No one else can say that.

These are just a few of the theological differences regarding Mary. To place God, Christ and the Holy Spirit on the highest level is not to shun Mary. It is the only right thing to do. Catholics often agree, but…

There’s no conflict between honoring Mary and giving all adoration to God. There is an infinite gulf between the highest level God is at, and the place where Mary is at. But that doesn’t mean we can’t recognize her as the highest of all creatures, and recognize her special place as the Mother of God. Any honor we give to her pales in comparison to the honor God gave her.

Blessings,

Capn Curt

Blessing to you as well!

 

[Jeanne_S]

Roman mythology??? You realize the first Christians wanted nothing to do with the Roman and pagan mythologies, right? Their view on Mary was not influenced by Roman mythologies. It was influenced by what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

As to a Queen of Heaven, you should read your Bible more.

Rev 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

So are you saying that God forced Mary to become pregnant??!?!??!?! That she was impregnated against her will and only informed of it later?!?!?!?!?! I don’t know the sick and twisted God you describe, because that’s not the God we read about in the Bible.

You’re fundamentally misunderstanding the Annunciation. Mary is perplexed about HOW she will become pregnant, since she is a consecrated virgin. She wasn’t a dummy, she, as a married woman, knew how women become pregnant. And yet she was confused, because she was to remain eternally a virgin.

You’re missing what I noted about the Annunciation. The angel recognizes her with an acclamation reserved to royalty (“Hail!”). He declares that she is completely full of God’s grace, and if you are full of God’s grace you are without any sin. She is the Ark of the New Covenant, and holy. She was saved by God BEFORE she fell into Original Sin or personal sin.

Yes, anyone who does God’s will is a co-redemptrix to others. God is the one redeemer, but He allows us to participate in the plan of salvation if we choose His will. That is why we are called the Body of Christ. And for Mary, what is special about her is that she is the co-redemptrix to ALL mankind, in that she brought Christ to EVERYONE. No one else can say that.

There’s no conflict between honoring Mary and giving all adoration to God. There is an infinite gulf between the highest level God is at, and the place where Mary is at. But that doesn’t mean we can’t recognize her as the highest of all creatures, and recognize her special place as the Mother of God. Any honor we give to her pales in comparison to the honor God gave her.

Blessing to you as well!

Well said,Thank you.I MO in this post,you clarified and explained any and all questions re Catholics’ devotion to our Mother Mary.

 

[accitenor]

Jeanne S. : Excellent diatribe! Well informed and well exposed. Thank you.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Jeanne S. : Excellent diatribe! Well informed and well exposed. Thank you.

Diatribe?Poor choice of words…
We’ll informed and a cogent explaination,yes,not a diatribe

 

[JoeT777]

Because Mary and Joseph clearly understood their responsibility in caring for the Christ child.their privilege was unique,any subsequent children would have detracted from their immense responsibility.

I couldn’t agree more. All of Jewish society was built around the community, similar to ‘family’. It was the parents responsibility to insure new members, infants, were properly inducted into the community. Circumcision was the visible mark that individuals were part of the community. The male parent was responsible to insuring that their children were properly circumcised, if not both the parents and the child were excised from the community. That’s why St. Paul says that Baptism was the new circumcision, we join the community of the faithful through baptism, being born again. This concept ran through all of the Jewish social activities, including caring of children, old people, and widows. Thus. in the case of Mary, left without paterfamiliar she became ward of the Church, the community of faithful, something different from individual ‘book readers’.

JoeT

 

[hu324b]

I’m not sure what you mean by shunning? I don’t purposefully mean to shun her. I just feel that she is not alive and holds no special power, that she was human like everyone else, though of course a very wonderful and blessed person.

So she’s dead in Christ - wrong - were all alive in Christ after we die - dead in this life yes but not in the next - I have heard this said before - that everyone is dead but that is not what the bible teaches - we all have life in Christ.- thats why he made his sacrifice.so we could be alive with him in heaven

 

[JoeT777]

We must all conceded that the Apostles founded the Catholic Church…

I don’t think we concede it quite the same way you might being thinking of. The Apostles weren’t the founders of the Catholic Church, likely called “the Way”, Christ was. The Apostles organized the Church into the corporate organ we understand as the Catholic Church through the traditions of the Apostles based on the teachings of Christ.

They developed the main theology of Christianity and safe guarded and compiled the scriptures that we have today Even though ,through Lucifers whiles and schemes many bad judgments and actions were taken in burning books that interfered with what they considered heresy ,such as the gospel of Thomas ]…

I’m not sure how 'Lucifer’s schemes, bad judgment, and burning books ’ is relevant to our discussion of Mary.

However we must all agree that ‘‘all’’ the protestants and many of the breakaway churches sprouted from the Catholic Church , And benefited from it’s many teachings …Which is to be accepted the old tried and tested version of Christ from the scriptures or a new interpretation of Christ by various protestants or break away churches that are more politically correct and remade to fit the world view …as opposed to what the witnesses and apostles declare ?..

You might be able to say Protestants benefited, but I’d say they were lost in the wilderness outside the walls of the Kingdom. But, once again I can’t see how this ties to the OP.

I choose the old historic scriptural view .= Catholic view…However due to the infiltration of the freemasons and illuminati I hold no allegiance to the Pope or his cohorts as they are giving false teachings to deceive the faithful…I also do not pray or bow down to the saints …And I desire to keep the real Sabbath holy as Constantine had no right to change the laws of God…Asides from all that I’m still Catholic.

Has anybody ever told you that the 'freemason and illuminati stuff is fiction, for entertainment, not for formation of the conscience? If we all formed of us formed our conscience on fiction we’d be running around saying “may the force be with you.” I’d suggest that this ‘old historic Scriptural view’ is equally misaligned.

 

[laruecharles]

Nestorianism is a Christological doctrine that emphasizes the disunion between the human and divine natures of Jesus.

Nestorius argued that Jesus had two persons, the divine Logos and the human Jesus. He challenged the long used title Theotokos (Bringer forth of God) for the Virgin Mary. He proposed Christotokos (Bringer forth of Christ) as a more suitable title for Mary.

In 431 the first Council of Ephesus held that Christ is one subsistence and nature, and that the Virgin Mary is the mother of God. The council accused Nestorius of heresy, and deposed him as patriarch.

So it comes down to who do you believe Jesus is. Is he one person with two natures, human and divine, or is he two persons living side by side in one body?

If he is two persons, then which one died on the cross? The divine person could not die, so it had to be the human person. If that was the case, then It’s hard to see how a human person dying on a cross could redeem all of mankind. No - God himself had to die on the cross to accomplish this. When the Jews nailed Jesus to the cross they nailed their God to the cross.

Nestorius was wrong - Mary is the mother of God incarnate. This cannot be said of Eve or of any other woman who ever lived or will ever live. She is also, according to Church teaching, traditions, and scripture, the queen of heaven.

Jesus, a first century Jew, honored his mother while growing up, and gave her a special place at his side at Cana and at his feet on the cross. Do we believe, now that she is in heaven, He no longer has her by his side for some reason? Do we also think that Mary, the spiritual mother of the apostles, is now out of communication with the Church and its members, unable to reach us from heaven or help us in any way?

Christians acknowledge that we have a heavenly father (God) and a heavenly brother (Jesus). There must also be a heavenly mother to complete the family. Mothers are absolutely essential - they bring nurturing and tenderness by their very nature. We should now run to our mother in heaven whenever we are wounded by other’s or by our own sins.

God likes delegation. He gives all things to his Son. His son likes delegation also and gives many things to his mother which she in turn can give us.

The saints tell us of the power of Mary’s intercessions. They tell us to go to her directly with our problems and our petitions. It’s imprudent to deny our mother in heaven. It must hurt her that we don’t believe in her as a real, living, caring and capable person.

I would say that many Protestants have thrown out too many Church traditions. Yes the church needed moral reform 500 years ago (as it does now), but not theological reform. The theology came from God directly and can’t be reformed.

With some reading and a little effort, the theology regarding Mary can be clarified. I recommend the book “33 days to morning glory” by Fr. Michael E. Gaitley.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Has anybody ever told you that the 'freemason and illuminati stuff is fiction, for entertainment, not for formation of the conscience? If we all formed of us formed our conscience on fiction we’d be running around saying “may the force be with you.” I’d suggest that this ‘old historic Scriptural view’ is equally misaligned.

Actually, my Great Aunt and Uncle were pretty high up and respected within Freemasonry. It’s not something I tell a lot of people. However, because of the anti-Catholic propaganda and it being spread through people seriously ignorant about the Catholic faith, they wrongfully believe that there’s a connection between the Catholic Church, Freemasons, and the Illuminati. I’ve been told by a friend of mine that active Freemasons cannot be welcomed into full communion with the Catholic Church. I’ve been told that the Catholic Church has opposed Freemasonry. However that may be, it’s a secretive cult. The person sitting beside you in church attending Mass or a Protestant worship service could be a Mason and you wouldn’t even know it. Freemasons appear to be Christian and will say they’re Christian, they’ll attend church and bible studies, church fellowships, mingle in with the crowd, quote bible verses, and keep up with the best of them at Church etc and their lives tend to be lived in a way that most Christians should live. The only difference is the deception that exists within Freemasonry and within those who adhere to what the Freemasons and Illuminati teach.

However that may be true, there is a HUGE difference between what the Catholic Church endorses and what at times people who claim to be Catholic believe. There’s a HUGE difference between what the Church teaches and what motives people may have when attending Mass or church. Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian and attending Mass doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a faithful Catholic adhering to what the Catholic Church teaches.

OK … Why do Protestants Shun Mary?

Most Protestants in their heart of hearts do not shun Mary. Most Protestants just don’t know much about Mary and have received false information about Mary. One of the major doctrinal issues that prevent Protestants from Converting to the Catholic Church is because of what the Catholic Church teaches regarding Mary.

So what do most Protestants believe about Mary?

Mary was a woman said to be blessed.

Mary was the Mother of Jesus.

Mary was the wife of Joseph and that Mary and Joseph had other children and as a result did not remain a virgin.

Protestant Churches do not teach the following:

Mary was immaculately conceived herself

Mary assumed into heaven

Mary is Queen Mom - Our Mother

Mary is Queen of Heaven.

Mary is the New Ark of the New Covenant and came as 2nd Eve like Jesus who came as 2nd Adam.

Protestants believe WRONGFULLY that Mary is worshipped by Catholics. They don’t understand the way in which we honor Mary as not only our Mother but as Queen of Heaven / Queen Mother.

Within the Protestant Churches PRAYING is seen as a form of worship and so therefore you only pray to God, there is no prayers to Mary or the Saints to ask for their advocacy and intercession for us… because Protestants do not learn about the Communion of the Saints. Saints and Mary are considered to be dead not alive.

Not much is said about Mary in Protestant Churches. So it’s not about Protestant Christians shunning Mary. There is just simply ignorance when it comes to Mary. I tell you, if Protestant Christians were to know what we know as Catholics regarding Mary, they too would honor Mary in the same way. Also, keeping mind, the Bible as Protestants know, does not talk about Mary being assumed into heaven. Mary being assumed into heaven is part of Catholic teachings through our Tradition and perhaps validated through the writings of the Early Church Fathers but the one verse in Revelations that proclaim Mary as Queen of Heaven most Protestants believe is in reference to the Church being represented in the feminine and do not actually see the connection - Revelation 12:1-3 has with Mary. I was in complete awe when I came to realize with greater revelation who Mary is. It wasn’t that I as a Protestant shunned Mary, absolutely not because she carried my Jesus, my Lord and Saviour through pregnancy and gave birth to Jesus but even in knowing that she gave birth to Jesus I didn’t fully recognize what it meant for Mary to be the Mother of God! Well, if Jesus is fully God and fully Man that means Mary became the Mother of God! No ordinary woman would ever become the Mother of God. Obviously, when I came to resolve the Catholic Churches teachings on Mary I no longer stood in opposition with the Catholic Church so I took the next logical step. I saw no point in being just Catholic at heart in a Protestant Church. To me that was like equivalent to remaining in partial truth but the fact is, Protestant Tradition is only partial truth. Why remain in partial truth when everything is fulfilled in the Catholic Church? Anyways, not a shunning but rather just lack of knowledge and understanding.

 

[Goya]

JoeT777,
re: " How much less sin could the Divine reside inside of? We can only conclude then that Mary is eternally Virgin…"

After Mary carried and gave birth to the Messiah, why would she have to remain virginal the rest of her life?

It’s a matter of fittingness, and according to Tradition, free will.

Now, as to consistency with the Bible: Christ is God the Father’s only begotten Son.

Christ is born to a human being. A woman. Mary.

Protestants maintain that other human beings were born of that same woman, through that same womb–the same one(s) as Christ–the only begotten Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, consubstantial and one in being with the Father, and with the Holy Spirit, the One, True God.

…and yet we don’t know these people by name?

They weren’t revered and venerated?

They held no special place amongst the early Christians?

Mary did; she was expressly bequeathed and entrustd to St. John (begging the question why?, if there were all these other grown up children she bore, running about…); she was revered in Ephesus, where she lived with St. John, as he founded a Christian community there.

But…not one of these alleged, natural, biological half-brothers of God?

Not one???

Anywhere???

…and if none of these alleged human beings were followers of Christ, do you not think Satan would seek to influence such persons into boasting of their own claim to divinity???

…or to lead others to stake such a claim, even fraudulently???

The silence in these matters, is downright deafening…

Or…they simply didn’t exist; because, as Tradition maintains…the Virgin Mother of God…remained ever virgin.

Seems rather clear, if you allow your Faith to breath beyond the strict confines of the four corners of your Bible.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Nestorianism is a Christological doctrine that emphasizes the disunion between the human and divine natures of Jesus.

Nestorius argued that Jesus had two persons, the divine Logos and the human Jesus. He challenged the long used title Theotokos (Bringer forth of God) for the Virgin Mary. He proposed Christotokos (Bringer forth of Christ) as a more suitable title for Mary.

In 431 the first Council of Ephesus held that Christ is one subsistence and nature, and that the Virgin Mary is the mother of God. The council accused Nestorius of heresy, and deposed him as patriarch.

So it comes down to who do you believe Jesus is. Is he one person with two natures, human and divine, or is he two persons living side by side in one body?

If he is two persons, then which one died on the cross? The divine person could not die, so it had to be the human person. If that was the case, then It’s hard to see how a human person dying on a cross could redeem all of mankind. No - God himself had to die on the cross to accomplish this. When the Jews nailed Jesus to the cross they nailed their God to the cross.

Nestorius was wrong - Mary is the mother of God incarnate. This cannot be said of Eve or of any other woman who ever lived or will ever live. She is also, according to Church teaching, traditions, and scripture, the queen of heaven.

Jesus, a first century Jew, honored his mother while growing up, and gave her a special place at his side at Cana and at his feet on the cross. Do we believe, now that she is in heaven, He no longer has her by his side for some reason? Do we also think that Mary, the spiritual mother of the apostles, is now out of communication with the Church and its members, unable to reach us from heaven or help us in any way?

Christians acknowledge that we have a heavenly father (God) and a heavenly brother (Jesus). There must also be a heavenly mother to complete the family. Mothers are absolutely essential - they bring nurturing and tenderness by their very nature. We should now run to our mother in heaven whenever we are wounded by other’s or by our own sins.

God likes delegation. He gives all things to his Son. His son likes delegation also and gives many things to his mother which she in turn can give us.

The saints tell us of the power of Mary’s intercessions. They tell us to go to her directly with our problems and our petitions. It’s imprudent to deny our mother in heaven. It must hurt her that we don’t believe in her as a real, living, caring and capable person.

I would say that many Protestants have thrown out too many Church traditions. Yes the church needed moral reform 500 years ago (as it does now), but not theological reform. The theology came from God directly and can’t be reformed.

With some reading and a little effort, the theology regarding Mary can be clarified. I recommend the book “33 days to morning glory” by Fr. Michael E. Gaitley.

With some reading and a little effort, the theology regarding Mary can be clarified

 

[accitenor]

JoeT777: Neither the Freemasonry nor the Illuminati are fictional. They are real, evil and very powerful. The Masons you may meet of lower grades are just useful tools, the Masons degreed 30 and over are the real elite of the devil’s work on earth. You need to do some research before you spout absolute statements.

 

[rstrats]

re: “With some reading and a little effort, the theology regarding Mary can be clarified.”

And that reading of scripture will clarify that scripture nowhere raises Mary to the lofty heights claimed by Rome.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Alexandria in 430. At this council, St Cyril issued his famous 12 anathemas against Nestorius, which stated:

If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh), let him be anathema.
If anyone does not confess that the Word from God the Father has been united by hypostasis with the flesh and is one Christ with his own flesh, and is therefore God and man together, let him be anathema.
If anyone divides in the one Christ the hypostases after the union, joining them only by a conjunction of dignity or authority or power, and not rather by a coming together in a union by nature, let him be anathema.
If anyone distributes between the two persons or hypostases the expressions used either in the Gospels or in the apostolic writings, whether they are used by the holy writers of Christ or by him about himself, and ascribes some to him as to a man, thought of separately from the Word from God, and others, as befitting God, to him as to the Word from God the Father, let him be anathema.
If anyone dares to say that Christ was a God-bearing man and not rather God in truth, being by nature one Son, even as “the Word became flesh,” and is made partaker of blood and flesh precisely like us, let him be anathema.
If anyone says that the Word from God the Father was the God or master of Christ, and does not rather confess the same both God and man, the Word having become flesh, according to the scriptures, let him be anathema.
If anyone says that as man Jesus was activated by the Word of God and was clothed with the glory of the Only-begotten, as a being separate from him, let him be anathema.
If anyone dares to say that the man who was assumed ought to be worshiped and glorified together with the Divine Word and be called God along with Him, while being separate from Him, (for the addition of “with” must always compel us to think in this way), and will not rather worship Emmanuel with one veneration and send up to Him one doxology, even as “the Word became flesh”, let him be anathema.
If anyone says that the one Lord Jesus Christ was glorified by the Spirit, as making use of an alien power that worked through Him and as having received from Him the power to master unclean spirits and to work divine wonders among people, and does not rather say that it was His own proper Spirit through whom He worked the divine wonders, let him be anathema.
The divine scripture says Christ became “the high priest and apostle of our confession”; He offered Himself to God the Father in an odour of sweetness for our sake. If anyone, therefore, says that it was not the very Word from God who became our high priest and apostle, when He became flesh and a man like us, but as it were another who was separate from him, in particular a man from a woman, or if anyone says that He offered the sacrifice also for Himself and not rather for us alone (for He who knew no sin, needed no offering), let him be anathema.
If anyone does not confess that the flesh of the Lord is life-giving and belongs to the Word from God the Father, but maintains that it belongs to another besides Him, united with Him in dignity or as enjoying a mere divine indwelling, and is not rather life-giving, as we said, since it became the flesh belonging to the Word who has power to bring all things to life, let him be anathema.
If anyone does not confess that the Word of God suffered in the flesh and was crucified in the flesh and tasted death in the flesh and became the first born of the dead, although as God He is life and life-giving, let him be anathema.

orthodoxwiki.org/Nestorianism

Father Hardin

CTC: Who, then, did Luther think Christ was?

Hardon: The Christ that Luther conceived was what we call a Nestorian Christ. The beliefs of Nestorius, the Patriarch of Constantinople, were condemned by the Catholic Church at the Council of Ephesus, in 431. That Council defined that Mary is the Mother of God. Why? Because the child she gave birth to in Bethlehem was true God. Nestorius denied that. Nestorius claimed that there were two persons in Christ, no one, a divine person and a human person, and that Mary was mother only of the human person. This heresy of, you might say, the duel personality of Christ is at the root, - I have to say it - of Lutheran Protestantism and emphatically of Jimmy Swaggart’s form of Protestantism.

CTC: Would Nestorius agree that he denied that Christ is true God?

Hardon: Well, he might not. Nestorius, who was a very learned man, claimed that he didn’t deny Christ’s divinity. But there’s a difference between Christ being two persons, one divine, one human, that somehow are, you might say, near to each other, and being one person both God and man. Nestorius conceived the idea of the will of the man, Jesus united with the will of God. But, for him, Jesus, the human being was not God. Once you deny Jesus’ divinity, everything, and I mean everything else falls apart. This, for example, is why Swaggart is too adamant in denying that we may invoke Our Lady.

CTC: Why?

Hardon: Because, he says, she is not, as we believe, the Mother of God. So she doesn’t have any more influence than you or I with Him. But we believe differently: The dignity of Mary and therefore, presumably, the power that she has before her Son comes from the fact that the child she conceived and gave birth to, though having a human nature, nevertheless was God Himself.

The Incarnation of the Word of God is what we are discussing “by large”. Many mainline protestants have a very similar view as the Catholic Church including Lutherans. But thats not what we have heard on this thread. What we have heard relates directly to above.

 

[GaryTaylor]

re: “With some reading and a little effort, the theology regarding Mary can be clarified.”

And that reading of scripture will clarify that scripture nowhere raises Mary to the lofty heights claimed by Rome.

By whos authority a fallible human reading scripture?

The only thing missing is your elaboration on the Incarnation. That has to be understood in light of the heresies of the Church in which they defended the human and divine nature of Jesus Christ-God. Who had no sin-None!

How did this incarnation of God happen? He didn’t have to be incarnate, He chose this. So aside from insinuations which btw are lacking as we see, The real conversation is right here. And the real conversation is what fringe protestants avoid. Whats ironic is they have no authority to interpret scripture-none. Nor do they believe in the teaching authority. Where does that leave us? With what one “thinks” the bible stated and another go around the track of very old heresies.

 

[JoeT777]

JoeT777: Neither the Freemasonry nor the Illuminati are fictional. They are real, evil and very powerful. The Masons you may meet of lower grades are just useful tools, the Masons degreed 30 and over are the real elite of the devil’s work on earth. You need to do some research before you spout absolute statements.

JoeT777: Neither the Freemasonry nor the Illuminati are fictional. They are real, evil and very powerful. The Masons you may meet of lower grades are just useful tools, the Masons degreed 30 and over are the real elite of the devil’s work on earth. You need to do some research before you spout absolute statements.

So, you believe that books like those written by Dan Brown such as The Lost Symbol, The Da Vinci Code, and Angeles and Demons are real? Should we check the Pope’s quarters to see if he has a descendent of the illegitimate Christ child hidden away?

JoeT

 

[JoeT777]

re: “With some reading and a little effort, the theology regarding Mary can be clarified.”

And that reading of scripture will clarify that scripture nowhere raises Mary to the lofty heights claimed by Rome.

It has already been clarified; its part of the Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scriptures of the Church in her doctrines.

JoeT

 

[SjMelnychuk]

re: “With some reading and a little effort, the theology regarding Mary can be clarified.”

And that reading of scripture will clarify that scripture nowhere raises Mary to the lofty heights claimed by Rome.

Really?? No scripture raises Mary as Queen of Heaven?

Revelation 11:19-12:2

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.

And just think about it …

It’s rather easy to call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant.

Why? You might ask?

The Ark carried the Old Covenant and the Old Covenant was placed in the Holy of Holies.
You know the tradition of the annual atonement sacrifice? Where once a year the High Priest would sacrifice the lamb. They would tie a rope around the waist or feet of the High Priest because if there was sin in the High Priests life he’d drop dead in the Holy of Holies because you had to be pure and not have any sin in you when you entered the Holy of Holies where the Ark of the Old Covenant was placed. When Jesus died on the cross the veil of was torn in two.

Well, prior to Jesus death on the cross the veil hadn’t been torn!

Mary conceived within her womb the New Covenant - therefore, Mary became the New Ark of the New Covenant. Think about it. The Ark carries the Covenant. Mary carries the New Ark. ***How can anyone not see Mary as the New Ark of the New Covenant (Jesus)? ***

In order to become the dwelling place of God prior to Jesus death on the cross nobody argued such a dwelling place was the Holy of Holies … right? Well, the old testament ALWAYS foreshadows the new testament. No theologian argues against that. So Mary, becoming the Mother of Jesus becomes the Mother of God! Her womb becomes the dwelling place of God in Christ. Therefore, Mary had to have been granted the grace to have been born without original sin tainting her womb because her womb became the dwelling place of God in Christ. Therefore the picture found in revelations of the Ark of His Covenant, a woman giving birth, is easily without a shadow of a doubt in reference to Mary being crownd Queen of Heaven.