Why Do Protestants Shun Mary?

[JamalChristophr]

Two reasons that I can think of:

One is that most non-Catholics are bible alone Christians so we don’t see much or any devotion to Mary in scripture. And often they discount typology regarding Our Lady.

Secondly, they are cut off from the history and tradition of the Christian Church (that is to say the Catholic Church) that always highly esteemed Our Lady and venerated her since the 1st century.

Many if not most non-Catholics think the Catholic church began in 300 AD ca. or even later.

 

[thenobes]

This is sort of what I meant by the fervency.
…22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end,…

How do you know the is not supposed to be a comma after "Christ"and “before the first fruits”? If so, Mary would be first of the first.

peace
steve

 

[JoeT777]

Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
Mary is a lot more than being just you and me. She is the very first fruit, the very first Catholic, and the very first of the faithful. If she were sinful like us then we’ve got a dilemma we can’t run from, Jesus Christ is not God. It could be said that Christ took on the flesh of sin, nursed on sin, and raised in sin.

I thought the Church explained that the Lord saw it was ‘fitting’ that Mary be free from sin, yet not explicitly necessary.

In other words, we are not strictly dependent on Mary’s Immaculate Conception or her perseverance in the grace given to her, yet we still benefit from her love for her Son. She could not love her Son in Truth and not love and embrace His mission to forgive the world. She received a piercing pain in her heart out of this love, that she submitted her Son to His passion.

“The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘come’.”

Mary only taught one thing… “Do whatever He tells you.”

And if you actually DO this one thing, do you not do ALL that Christ teaches? And in doing so, is faith not perfected? This one simple sentence is likely the most important ever uttered for eternal life; “ Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” We can do this thing, can we not? Does not this one simple sentence uttered by Mary become the first ever Christian homily? What more does one need? Whatsoever he says DO!

You and I might have a different understanding of what “explicitly necessary” means. I won’t dwell much on it except to say that every doctrine of the faith is ‘explicitly’ taught and is necessary for the faithful to be ‘bound’ to that belief. However, I said the Marian doctrines are “imperative to Christian faith (beyond Papal decree).” The reason was explicitly stated, “for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity” [Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus].

Hence Pope Pius IX said:

And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent. To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son – the Son whom, equal to the Father and begotten by him, the Father loves from his heart – and to give this Son in such a way that he would be the one and the same common Son of God the Father and of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was she whom the Son himself chose to make his Mother and it was from her that the Holy Spirit willed and brought it about that he should be conceived and born from whom he himself proceeds. (emphasis is mine)

It “was wholly fitting” means it is appropriate, it became as the will of God “ that the brightness of uncontaminated holiness should conquer the old serpent by escaping altogether the stain of original sin itself. . .”

In this, we find that the very birth of your Salvation, Jesus Christ, which is explicitly necessarily in the voyage across the dark waters of sin since the time of Adam within an Ark of great renown to be deposited by Mary on the shores of our Salvation in all ways like us, except sin.

By being singularly protected from original sin, Mary becomes first-born of grace as Mother of your redemption:

Wisdom shall praise her own self, and shall be honored in God, and shall glory in the midst of her people, And shall open her mouth in the churches of the most High, and shall glorify herself in the sight of his power, And in the midst of her own people she shall be exalted, and shall be admired in the holy assembly. And in the multitude of the elect she shall have praise, and among the blessed she shall be blessed, saying: I came out of the mouth of the most High, the firstborn before all creatures: [Ecclesiasticus 24:1-5]

Liguori also points to Proverbs: “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.” [Proverbs 8:22] Thus Christ is first Born of every creature [Cf. Col 1:15] given birth by the Blessed Mary who was the firstborn of HIs grace.

Catholicism holds a person is body and soul united together by the creator defining an individual rational human being. In Christ we find that He is a Person, the Second Person of the Trinity, original justice personified. One Divine hypostasis having the nature of the Divine uniquely and inseparably joined to the nature of man as any man is born. He is like us in every way except sin. Reality is that men are born of women; it can not be denied just as we can not deny the Second Person of the Trinity was born of woman.

The original man was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and united with the will of God, overflowing with the knowledge of truth; the intellect functioned in the light of God’s will therein disciplining the lower appetites through reason alone. Original man could ‘reason’ why he should be honorable, just, prudent, and strong in his virtuous graces simply because he knew God, spoke with God, and was befriended by God. However, because of an unjust act men bear the just punishment for the sin of one man. Christ, who is the personification of that original justice, is of that same species of man however he traversed the great flood of sin over time in a most wondrous new ark - the imperative of Christian faith.

JoeT

 

[JoeT777]

She was not the first catholic , she was the first Christian . There was no Catholic church
at that time .

Allow me to disagree. Mary was indeed the first of the faithful, the first Catholic Christian as there is but only one True faith of Jesus Christ as there is only one truth. How many ‘true’ Christ(s) are there? Is there a Lutheran Christ and/or perhaps a Methodist Christ in addition to a Catholic Christ? How many True Bodies of Christ are there?

JoeT

 

[JoeT777]

This is sort of what I meant by the fervency.
…22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father,

That’s right, everything in its order First the Divine, i.e. the Vine, then the “faithful and the approved”, the fruit. [Cf. St. John Chrysostom, On First Corinthians, 39].

I want to say this as nicely as possible, but this concept you listed is a major heresy which lies outside Trinitarian Theology. Maybe you didn’t quite mean it that way. If so, please feel free to clarify.

I’ve in no way harmed the Trinity. I think you misunderstood my comment. What I said is if Mary was not Immaculate, then Jesus Christ could not be both Divine and human; which, by the way, is a true statement. If she were not Immaculate then we must understand that He was ‘created’ and God is not ‘created’.

I appreciate the RCC wanting to lift Mary to a special place. I think she should be, after all God chose her to bear Jesus. But the level to which folks go to lift her up from a Protestant point of view crosses the line into places a Christian shouldn’t go. This is what I meant in my original post the the fervency & frequency" of honoring Mary, as practiced, soon leads to places which are “grey areas” .

I don’t mean any animosity by my comments, but the original post was asking for reasons Protestant did not engage lifting Mary the same way RC’s do. I thought I’d give a viewpoint.

PAX

I appreciate the RCC as well. She made the Marian doctrines so utterly clear. The fervency and frequency we honor Mary is due to the Matriarch of the Church. If the Church is the Body of Christ, then Mary is the Mother of that Body and becomes the Mother of the Church. More importantly she is the New Eve whose son crushed the head of sin making it possible for us to ‘work’ with a renewal of original justice in men.

JoeT

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Many if not most non-Catholics think the Catholic church began in 300 AD ca. or even later.

Those who think so have to supply a reason, and the reason, to say the least, is hardly forthcoming since the Catholic bishops in the 4th century assembled and canonized the New Testament (read by all Protestants today) and authored the Nicene Creed (subscribed to by many Protestants today).

Today virtually all Protestants celebrate as their two main feast days Christmas and Easter.

Jesus and Mary were both present at the events honored by those feast days: Mary gave birth to Jesus in a stable, and Mary stood at the foot of the cross when her son died.

The Catholic calendar gives several days honoring Mary; the Protestant calendar gives none.

 

[epostle]

Allow me to disagree. Mary was indeed the first of the faithful, the first Catholic Christian as there is but only one True faith of Jesus Christ as there is only one truth. How many ‘true’ Christ(s) are there? Is there a Lutheran Christ and/or perhaps a Methodist Christ in addition to a Catholic Christ? How many True Bodies of Christ are there?

JoeT

Hi Joe. I think there is just one “True Body of Christ”. There are numerous denominations with varying degrees of separation with the Church Jesus founded, but they are still part of the Church, even though they deny it.

Our Blessed Mom is the first Christian for sure, but IMO, she is more Jewish. She is the Daughter of Zion, Israel PERSONIFIED.

I think “shun” is a strong word. But Our Blessed Mom is ignored by Protestants for fear of appearing too Catholic. What a poverty!

What most Protestants don’t know is the high regard the early reformers had about Mary. In fact, they upheld all the Catholic doctrines on Mary but for one: her intercession. So what happened? Theological erosion is all I can come up with.

 

[JoeT777]

Hi Joe. I think there is just one “True Body of Christ”. There are numerous denominations with varying degrees of separation with the Church Jesus founded, but they are still part of the Church, even though they deny it.

I’ve tried to accept this explanation, but always seemed to fail making the logical connections. To me, what you’ve described is similar to the status degree of the Freemason’s. I don’t think the ‘numerous denominations’ would agree to a pyramid of higher order with the Catholic Church at the pinnacle as the “fullness of faith” (if indeed you’re headed in that direction).

And I can’t hold the concept that ‘one Church is as good as another’. This would imply that the cosmic truth of any one thing is “relative” or that every truth is equally valid - there seems to be no absolute truth in our reality. Pope Benedict XVI spoke directly to this issue in Truth and Tolerance, and specifically to the multiplicity of ‘one faith’:

The dominant impression of most people today is that all religions, with a varied multiplicity of forms and manifestations, in the end are and mean one and the same thing; which is something everyone can see, except for them. The man of today will for the most part scarcely respond with an abrupt No to a particular religion’s claim to be true; he will simply relativize that claim by saying “There are many religions.” And behind his response will probably be the opinion, in some form or another, that beneath varying forms they are in essence all the same; each person has his own. [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Truth and Tolerance, Christian Belief and World Religions, p 22]

Surely you’re not suggesting they are ‘all the same’?

What most Protestants don’t know is the high regard the early reformers had about Mary. In fact, they upheld all the Catholic doctrines on Mary but for one: her intercession. So what happened? Theological erosion is all I can come up with.

That’s a bit condescending, don’t you think? Do you not think the ‘denominations’ can think for themselves? They’ve made a conscientious choice in their theology - it leads to dead end.

JoeT

 

[Magdalena59]

I’m not aware of any scripture where the Messiah pays any special homage to His mother. In fact He seems to be somewhat put off when her name comes up.

Matthew 12:46-50 - - 46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

John 2:1-4 - - 2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

He was not putting her off. I find that a very sad concept that he would be putting her off. As the mother of a son, I know that would be hurtful. Jesus wouldn’t do that because he would be breaking one of his own commandments, to honor your father and mother. He loved and honored his mother.

In Matthew he was making a point as to how important it is to obey God and points to the importance of obedience in our salvation.

In John he wasn’t putting her off. He was elevating her to the New Eve.

Genesis 2:23 she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man

Genesis 3:20 The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living

John 2: 4-5 O Woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, Do whatever he tells you.

John 2: 12 After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brethren** and his disciples; and there they stayed for a few days.

John 19: 27 Then he said to the disciple,Behold, your mother

Here is another little interesting line in the scripture that sometimes goes unnoticed:

John 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

It was because of the asking of His Mother that He honored her request and the disciples came to believe in Jesus.

God bless. **

 

[epostle]

I’ve tried to accept this explanation, but always seemed to fail making the logical connections. To me, what you’ve described is similar to the status degree of the Freemason’s. I don’t think the ‘numerous denominations’ would agree to a pyramid of higher order with the Catholic Church at the pinnacle as the “fullness of faith” (if indeed you’re headed in that direction).

And I can’t hold the concept that ‘one Church is as good as another’. This would imply that the cosmic truth of any one thing is “relative” or that every truth is equally valid - there seems to be no absolute truth in our reality. Pope Benedict XVI spoke directly to this issue in Truth and Tolerance, and specifically to the multiplicity of ‘one faith’:

The dominant impression of most people today is that all religions, with a varied multiplicity of forms and manifestations, in the end are and mean one and the same thing; which is something everyone can see, except for them. The man of today will for the most part scarcely respond with an abrupt No to a particular religion’s claim to be true; he will simply relativize that claim by saying “There are many religions.” And behind his response will probably be the opinion, in some form or another, that beneath varying forms they are in essence all the same; each person has his own. [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Truth and Tolerance, Christian Belief and World Religions, p 22]

Surely you’re not suggesting they are ‘all the same’?

No. I had CCC817-819 in mind. I should have been more clear.

That’s a bit condescending, don’t you think? Do you not think the ‘denominations’ can think for themselves? They’ve made a conscientious choice in their theology - it leads to dead end.

JoeT

Protestants didn’t make a conscious choice in the communities they were born in. But I agree their theology is about 10% erroneous, overall.

 

[rcwitness]

What constitutes honoring Mary?

ISTM that devotion to the saints (those in our community/Parish), devotion to orphans, the Mass, the poor, strive to accept and keep the Apostolic Teachings (first in Sacred Scripture/Tradition and in the current Catechism). All this is keeping the commands of our Lord which gives our mother Mary the best honor.

Then there are the ways which we honor her by avoiding to say negative things about her, and doubt or influence others to doubt what the Church Teaches about her.

Protestants do NOT receive the Eucharist! They are therefore not held to the same level of examination as what is constituted in the Catholic Deposit of Faith. Yet, they are also given the Holy Spirit. This Spirit which we also live by works many things which give honor to Mary. Some even much more than many Catholics.

I am Catholic, and know that the Catholic Faith offers each of us a more pleasing and edifying life in the whole family of God. But this is only measured by the amount individual Catholics accept and keep of what is delivered to us. So I dont claim to honor Mary more than my Protestant brothers and sisters. The Day will reveal that. But I certainly hope and seek to honor her in the ways Ive mentioned above. I dont have devotions to her image or the Rosary (those who genuinely do, do well!). I ask for her recourse and prayers occassionally. What I have found around me, is that some focus more on her image and repeating the Rosary WITHOUT a devotion to Scripture and the Catechism. This is easier because the image doesnt tell us anything. It doesnt hold us accountable to anything. I am not against using images within our worship and devotions, but against treating them as superstition.

 

[Goya]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Because of the teaching on this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

“For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
(Douay-Rheims Bible in 1Tim2:5)

Actually shunning is not the correct term, we choose not to worship her. I know RC teaching states it is not worship, but when the frequency and fervency of the focus on Mary is as it is reflected in modern Roman Catholicism, it is seen for all practical purposes as worship. As others have stated, we honor her as the woman chosen by God to carry His Son, but that is generally where it stops.

It’s interesting that the battle lines were drawn on the word ‘worship’ (in the English speaking world) rather than ‘Adoration’.

The word ‘worship’ in English has such a broad application–Brit’s often referred to their… masters–or “Lords”–as “your worship” and such, simply indicating respect was due that person, and acknowledging their superior state. Similarly, they call ordinary men, “Lord” (as in “yes my Lord”, “no my Lord”…).

Shall we then indict the entirety of Britannia, for idolatry, in elevating mere men to such exalted status?

…or shall we look at the context of the culture, and make our determinations therefrom?

Obviously, as a general rule, we elect for the latter, as it simply makes more sense.

Likewise, what you accuse Catholics of–while it may very well fall within the general, broad definition of ‘worship’, really amounts to, and constitutes veneration just as the Church has declared and maintained, repeatedly.

Adoration–or what you attempt to characterize as “worship”–is reserved for the Lord.

We venerate, and pray to Mary; the ultimate objective of our prayers, is Adoration of Our Lord, the singular (yet Triune) God.

Mary was, remains, and shall always be, a faithful servant of the Lord.

As such, she is worthy of our veneration, and yes, even worship–yet not in the sense that you, as a matter of protestant indoctrination, are inclined to impute to it–as that would be Adoration–of which she is not worthy, as Adoration is reserved for the three blessed persons of the Trinity.

…[cont’d below]…

 

[Goya]

…[cont’d]…

As for ‘co-mediatrix’–she is clearly the New Eve; her “yes”, ushered in Emmanuel; she was with Christ for the first 30 years of His life; she was there at His conception; there at His birth; there through his puberty and growth into a man, and quite instrumental in shaping Him; she was there through His Passion, and at His death; and she was there at the Pentecost, when He essentially founded His Church.

Her supporting roll in the life (and after, frankly) of the Mediator, is inextricable from His–and this is borne out in the wedding feast of Cana, when Christ first asks “…what is this to you our I?” Then acquiesces, without any requirement of an explanation.

This isn’t Mary’s power or authority of her own right, or over Him–no one suggests that it is; it’s matter of convergence of wills; hers being so consistent with His, that asking of Mary isn’t asking of anything inconsistent to Christ’s/God’s will (certainly it would be vain to expect anything through Mary, what would be inconsistent with God’s Will).

…and none of that takes anything at all away from Christ; it doesn’t even effect His singular roll as Mediator; it simply recognizes her [auxiliary] roll supplemental thereto.

Hope this helps.

 

[JoeT777]

Protestants didn’t make a conscious choice in the communities they were born in. But I agree their theology is about 10% erroneous, overall.

If we have a cool drink of water except that we replace 1% (or even less) with poison the drink might still be cool and refreshing, yet it invites death, does it not?

As interesting as it can be we’ve gone off topic - lets reserve this discussion for elsewhere.

JoeT

 

[rcwitness]

If we have a cool drink of water except that we replace 1% (or even less) with poison the drink might still be cool and refreshing, yet it invites death, does it not?

As interesting as it can be we’ve gone off topic - lets reserve this discussion for elsewhere.

JoeT

Oh, but one comment on this!

The Genuine community which is not associated with Protesting the Church, is not necessarily adding anything to the drink. They preach and practice a more simple Gospel.

This is why I have been comforted and learned about God in a community like this. I only believe that there is fundamental simplicity within the Cat Church too! But more to grow into. And the genuine Christian communities not in full communion with Rome dont realize that they are able to enjoy the faith they have because they stood on the things established through the Catholic Church.

There are many, many good Christians who have behavior and ministries that would help the Catholic Church! Division has its negative affects for sure, but its doesnt mean there is enmity and complete disunity with the denominations.

Mary has appeared to the Catholic faithfull. This seems to be sure. But she also appeared to a Calvanist community ourladyofsiluva.org/our_lady/

 

[pablope]

She was not the first catholic , she was the first Christian . There was no Catholic church
at that time .

It was not known at the Catholic Church. It was first known as “The Way”…and sometime, it started being called the Catholic Church, sometime before AD 107 or so.

And there was no “Free Christian” either in the early Christianity…"Free Christian is an innovation, a modern one, and it did not even start in the Reformation.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

How do you know the is not supposed to be a comma after "Christ"and “before the first fruits”? If so, Mary would be first of the first.

peace
steve

Interesting point. Here is the Douay-Rheims translation of 1Cor15:23: But every one in his own order: the firstfruits Christ, then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming.
*********************************************************************************************************

Overall I am not disparaging the RC view of Mary. The OP was asking why Protestants shun her. I was just clarifying in response to some of the common reasons that people listed here. As I stated earlier, my issue is not so much with the doctrine as a concept, but as I read responses here it always goes to places that lie outside traditional Christian Faith. As one response to one of my posts listed, what I should be hearing is what the Church teaches, what my experience has been is somewhat different.

To see what I am speaking about in concept, look at the prayer request section here. See how many prayers are to Jesus, how many to Mary and how many to God. From what I’ve seen, there are A LOT to Mary, some to God (our Father’s) and many fewer to Jesus. While perfectly normal for RC’s, it is very foreign to a Protestant, even those who believe in the Communion of Saints, to have so little prayer to Jesus. So in part, Protestants not engaging with Mary is I think as much cultural as theological.

PAX

 

[Magdalena59]

There are many, many good Christians who have behavior and ministries that would help the Catholic Church! Division has its negative affects for sure, but its doesnt mean there is enmity and complete disunity with the denominations. :

I agree because there is disunity does not mean Christians can not work together, leastways on things they do have in common. It does become harder with the big differences and social differences.

Mary has appeared to the Catholic faithfull. This seems to be sure. But she also appeared to a Calvanist community ourladyofsiluva.org/our_lady/

What a great story. I love hearing stories like this. Our Lady is very instrumental in bringing people back to the Catholic church as she did in this apparition in Lithuania. I am sure it is Our Lady of Siluva who was instrumental in such a large number (77%) of Lithuania being Catholic.

God bless.

 

[CaliLobo]

My non-Catholic Christian friend and others seem to hate the idea that Mary is without sin and they don’t like the Saints either. They say that we are all saints. I have to admit I don’t understand this mentality well.

But it really does seem like a form of pride to me. They hate the idea that some people are holier than they are and that Mary is to be highly venerated for good reason.

It makes me angry when they call Our Lady a “vessel”.

Only the Trinity is God, and all Christian prayer only goes to God.

When Catholics “pray to saints,” they are really asking canonized saints to pray to God for them, right?

This “pray to saints” wording is confusing to Protestants, and appears sacrilegious.

And it is true that we are all saints and priests. Catholics agree with that. Protestants “pray to saints” without knowing it, by asking their friends to pray for them, right?

 

[Vanny]

As a Lutheran I actually have no problems with most of the Marian Doctrines.
I think many Protestants shun Mary because of the perception of the over-exaggerated attention give her in the RCC(which is not entirely true) and they feel it detracts from Christ. Actually I think the EO have the most balanced view of Mary. She is the Theotokos.

I also believe it is likely she never had any other children, or I don’t have a problem with that view.