Why Do Protestants Shun Mary?

[Jeanne_S]

Esther was an extraordinary queen - brave and beautiful. Deborah was a wise leader at a time when most leaders were men, but she was the one God chose as judge during a dangerous time.

As for Mary, she was the greatest woman of all. She was the human mother of the incarnated Christ! I respect, admire, and speak highly of her. As a protestant, am I missing something?

Yes! Mary’s involvement in the salvation history.Think about it.Here a young Jewish woman,pre emptively cleansed of original sin.She bore our Saviour in her womb.That s not where the story ends.Mary cooperated fully in God’s plan.She most likely had no idea what she was going to endure.She got a glimpse at thevPresentation,when Simeion for told Christ’s suffering and she was also told that her heart would be pierced with swords of sorrow.She pondered these words and many other throught Christ’s life.While she didn’t always understand,she trusted in God’s plan.Mary remained with Christ throughout his Passion and death on the cross.She suffered as any mother would along side Him.
Mary is an exemplar role model for all if us by her example of deep faith.Finally,Christ gave her to us from the cross,she is our spiritual mother,she is thevQueen of Heaven.
We ate blessed to have her and it is to the detriment of those who don’t embrace her as their mother.

 

[Eldee]

What makes you think that Catholics ‘shunned reading Scripture’. Mass contains the Liturgy of the Word., its an integral part of the Mass and has been since Christ. It was even part of the Mass during the so called protest started in the 1520’s.

A book is the basis of faith? Do Protestant/reformers worship book?

That’s not exactly the way I see it, the Catholic Church isn’t competing with anything or anybody. Her role is to be an infallible source of doctrine, and grace through the sacraments. I don’t see Protestant or reformers as rivals, rather as those who have abandoned the Kingdom of God to create their own little kingdoms.

JoeT

But Joe I suggest you ask some of those of the previous generation of Catholics if they were ever encouraged to read and study the bible, in school, or in the home. The catechism, yes, but not the bible. The masses of Catholics in South America, for another example, have never been encouraged to read the bible. In fact in some cases it was forbidden, as something that may be harmful to their faith.
Vatican II made an effort to restore bible reading by the masses to its proper place, but change has been long in coming.

And Joe, I don’t think that Protestant Christians have abandoned the Kingdom of God. They are merely fellow Christians who have temporarily lost their way, and are waiting for us to evangelize them. And, in this day and age, they do indeed need a female role model, like our Blessed Mother.

 

[JoeT777]

But Joe I suggest you ask some of those of the previous generation of Catholics if they were ever encouraged to read and study the bible, in school, or in the home. The catechism, yes, but not the bible. The masses of Catholics in South America, for another example, have never been encouraged to read the bible. In fact in some cases it was forbidden, as something that may be harmful to their faith.

This doesn’t deserve an answer it’s so flawed. However, so you can say you received a response, let me say that the faithful are encouraged to read Scripture wherever they are in the world.

Vatican II made an effort to restore bible reading by the masses to its proper place, but change has been long in coming.

Certainly, the episcopate have always encouraged reading Sacred Scripture. All the Ecumenical Councils addressed the Scriptures in one form or another.

And Joe, I don’t think that Protestant Christians have abandoned the Kingdom of God. They are merely fellow Christians who have temporarily lost their way, and are waiting for us to evangelize them. And, in this day and age, they do indeed need a female role model, like our Blessed Mother.

I believe that they have left the Kingdom to create their own ‘body of Christ’; one more compatible with their own will. The Body of Christ is the Church, and there is only one Body as there is only One Christ. There is but one Church of Jesus Christ. One who stands outside the walls and proclaims “I am the Body of Christ” is deluding himself. We are created objects, There is no object that can occupy two different places at the same time. Likewise, we cannot stand outside the wall and perceive ourselves to be inside the walls at the same time.

JoeT

 

[Eldee]

Father Hardin

CTC: Who, then, did Luther think Christ was?

Hardon: The Christ that Luther conceived was what we call a Nestorian Christ. The beliefs of Nestorius, the Patriarch of Constantinople, were condemned by the Catholic Church at the Council of Ephesus, in 431. That Council defined that Mary is the Mother of God. Why? Because the child she gave birth to in Bethlehem was true God. Nestorius denied that. Nestorius claimed that there were two persons in Christ, no one, a divine person and a human person, and that Mary was mother only of the human person. This heresy of, you might say, the duel personality of Christ is at the root, - I have to say it - of Lutheran Protestantism and emphatically of Jimmy Swaggart’s form of Protestantism.

In defense of Luther, I think the following link shows that Luther never abandoned his veneration of Mary as the Mother of God. I also don’t think he could be labeled a subscriber to the Nestorian heresy. Luther, his faults not withstanding, did our Church a favor in issuing a wake up call.

www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=788

 

[Jeanne_S]

The numerous threads devoted to Mary on this site,for the most part by Protestants,I believe is a good thing.
The fact that they are questioning Mary’s role as it pertains to our faith ,could result in a conversion of heart re Mary.
I know Luther still held on to the Catholic belief re !Mary’s importance.However,somewhere along the long line of new Protestants faiths as they emerged,Mary was left out of their theology.
What a shame for them.I cannot imagine not having Mary as part of my faith,Christ knew the world needed a mother,what a good and loving God he is.

 

[laruecharles]

Esther was an extraordinary queen - brave and beautiful. Deborah was a wise leader at a time when most leaders were men, but she was the one God chose as judge during a dangerous time.

As for Mary, she was the greatest woman of all. She was the human mother of the incarnated Christ! I respect, admire, and speak highly of her. As a protestant, am I missing something?

 

[laruecharles]

As for Mary, she was the greatest woman of all. She was the human mother of the incarnated Christ! I respect, admire, and speak highly of her. As a protestant, am I missing something?

As a protestant, by definition, you would be missing many fundamental truths in Christianity. They have not been taught to you because they are not widely known by protestants.

I’m speaking from my own experience here. I was a protestant for about two years before the spirit led me back to the Catholic faith of my childhood. I had good protestant mentors who got me started in the basics. I once asked one of my protestant mentors if purgatory was real as taught by the Catholic church. He said “they have been around for a long time. If that’s what they teach, it’s probably right”.

I hope you will follow a similar path. You are a Christian already. Now it’s time for you to become a better formed Christian, to expand your soul, so to speak. For that to happen, you will need correct teaching.

Don’t start off with Catholic teaching. C.S. Lewis is a good starting point for you. Get “The Complete C. S. Lewis Signature Classics” from Amazon.com. It contains several of his best works, starting with “Mere Christianity”. I promise you will love them.

Blessings,
Charles

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Esther was an extraordinary queen - brave and beautiful. Deborah was a wise leader at a time when most leaders were men, but she was the one God chose as judge during a dangerous time.

As for Mary, she was the greatest woman of all. She was the human mother of the incarnated Christ! I respect, admire, and speak highly of her. As a protestant, am I missing something?

As many have noted that Protestants don’t shun Mary but rather have high regard for her as she’s seen as a godly example for women to follow but as a Protestant there’s a tone of things that you are missing.

Mary is Queen of Heaven.
Mary is the New Ark of the New Covenant because she carried Jesus (the New Covenant) in her womb.
Mary nurtured the infant Church just like she nurtured the infant Jesus
essentially becoming Mother to us all.
Mary is as Queen of Heaven Queen Mother.

Protestants have no problem taking the analogy of a Kingdom and applying that to Jesus and the Kingdom of God. Protestants see Jesus as King. Therefore that makes Mary Queen Mother. The role of Queen Mother in any Kingdom is to be an advocate for the common people before the King and in our case Mary, Queen of Heaven, Gracious advocate for us, also our Mother … Think of the difference between the relationship that a Child has with their parents. Is not the Fathers relationship to his children a little different than the relationship the Mother has with her Children? Since I grew up without a Mother this is an abstract thought to have but perhaps I’ll understand differently if I ever become a Mother. All I know is that Children need both a Dad and Mom and that my Dad could never be my Mother no matter how hard he would try to fill in the gap himself it was impossible because a Mom is unique from a Dad. Mary is our Mother. She intercedes for us whether we ask her to or not. She is, in her role in Redemption, as Jesus (immaculately conceived born without the stain of original sin became the 2nd Adam Mary came full of grace as she too saved from the stain of original sin became 2nd Eve. Both Jesus and Mary suffered both Jesus and Mary immaculately conceived suffered and Jesus died as the Sacrificial lamb “for the wages of sin is death” but as Scripture foretold Mary’s heart was pierced. She suffered greatly in her obedience not only did she suffer in her obedience she didn’t have to, she was born without the stain of original sin but she chose obedience. Eve chose to disobedience in her state of not having been born without original sin and Mary being born full of grace and without original sin chose obedience and in her obedience gave birth to Jesus. In this sense both Jesus and Mary had a role in our redemption from original sin.

In order to understand these things you have to understand the following:

Original Sin
Mortal Sin
Venial Sin

Jesus and Mary suffered as the 2nd Adam and 2nd Eve to reverse what the 1st Adam and Eve did thereby Christ’s death on the Cross was to deal with Original Sin.

There is a lot more to say but I’ll stop with this here for now.

 

[Cyberseeker]

SjMelnychuk:

Mary is Queen of Heaven …
Mary is the New Ark …

Naw, I wont bad-mouth such a wonderful lady just because I agree with the protestant point of view.

I came on to this site to chat with Christians about my special interest in Old Testament history. So I’ll just toddle off to threads that interest me, and leave the Cath/Prod extremes to the debaters. :knight1:

Blessings,
Cyber

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Naw, I wont bad-mouth such a wonderful lady just because I agree with the protestant point of view.

I came on to this site to chat with Christians about my special interest in Old Testament history. So I’ll just toddle off to threads that interest me, and leave the Cath/Prod extremes to the debaters. :knight1:

Blessings,
Cyber

As you wish but you asked so I merely answered the question. However, for the life of me I can’t see one scriptural evidence that actually validates a Protestant view of Mary. Like take Revelations for example. It gives this picture of the ark of the covenant in child labor giving birth and has this lady being crowned with 12 Jewels.

A Protestant view is that this picture is that of the Church.

OK… Say that’s biblically correct… If you were to take that interpretation to it’s logical conclusion you’d have to say the Church is the ark of the covenant.

How can the Church be the ark of the covenant when Mary gave birth to the New Covenant? It seems to me that with Mary being pregnant for 9 months with a child immaculately conceived within her womb would by far win the title of becoming the Ark of the Covenant being Crowned considering that Jesus (the new covenant) was INSIDE Mary’s womb just like the Old Covenant was INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant. Nobody can ever be more INSIDE than a baby INSIDE a Mothers womb as that’s literally being INSIDE, being carried around for 9 months from like the fetus stage all the way through to birthing … Somebody, any woman out there who’s EVER gone through pregnancy … You can testify to when that baby is growing INSIDE you, you are definitely made aware of how literally INSIDE that baby is in you… As that child feeds off of the food you eat and who’s life blood for a period of time is dependant upon the life blood of the Mother. You can’t get more INSIDE then that so how can anyone say that the Church is the Ark of the New Covenant when you can’t get more inside any other object or person than your Mothers womb? Where you are carried for 9 months feeding off your Mother. So you agree with the Protestant Tradition that basically says the Church is the Ark of the New Covenant?

 

[rcwitness]

Naw, I wont bad-mouth such a wonderful lady just because I agree with the protestant point of view.

I came on to this site to chat with Christians about my special interest in Old Testament history. So I’ll just toddle off to threads that interest me, and leave the Cath/Prod extremes to the debaters. :knight1:

Blessings,
Cyber

Which Protestant view are you referring to? How can you agree with denominations which have different views from one another? Do you agree with Martin Luther, John Wesley, Calvin? The founding Protestants? Did they agree with one another?

 

[rcwitness]

Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition)

Footnotes:

12.1-6 The child brought forth is the Messiah; the dragon is the devil; the woman who gave birth to the Messiah is Israel, and then becomes the Christian church, which continually gives birth to the faithful.
12.14 a time, and times, and half a time: This is the three and a half years of 11.2.
12.17** Mary, the mother of the Messiah, must also be included in the meaning.**
Revelation 12:17 Other ancient authorities read And I stood, connecting the sentence with 13.1

 

[GaryTaylor]

Catechism on the Church 813.

What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her “Church.”

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

 

[SjMelnychuk]

But it is Catholic teaching that has traditionally and historically called Mary Queen of Heaven and the Ark of the New Covenant while the only mystery in connection with the Church is that we are the Bride of Christ… There can be only one Ark of the New Covenant. Which is it? The Church or Mary? Is Mary crowned Queen Mother or not? Every Catholic Apologist understands the verse in Revelations is in reference to the Crowning of Mary in Heaven.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

All that aside there is a Mystery of the Church being “Mother” however, the great calling for us in the Church is to be spiritual mothers and spiritual father’s. Many of us are great at being a brother or sister but being spiritual mothers / fathers a rarity. And in view of the Church being feminine I can see the Church being spiritually a Mother but ultimately that place is reserved for Mary. Especially in the picture described in Revelation where Mary is crowns Queen of Heaven and referee to as the Ark of the New Covenant.

 

[rcwitness]

But it is Catholic teaching that has traditionally and historically called Mary Queen of Heaven and the Ark of the New Covenant while the only mystery in connection with the Church is that we are the Bride of Christ… There can be only one Ark of the New Covenant. Which is it? The Church or Mary? Is Mary crowned Queen Mother or not? Every Catholic Apologist understands the verse in Revelations is in reference to the Crowning of Mary in Heaven.

Both/And…

Mary is recognized as a unique and singular mother within the motherhood of the Church. So while the passage (Revelations 12) cannot neglect Mary’s association and perfect embodiment of the Church and role in fullfilling it, the predominent prophecy is Israel who became the Church.

Mary is the consummate Christian.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

I said it before and I’ll say it again, Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant unless I see otherwise …unless I see the CCC directly state that both the Church and Mary are considered to be the Ark of the New Covenant but as I see it, only Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.

 

[rcwitness]

I said it before and I’ll say it again, Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant unless I see otherwise …unless I see the CCC directly state that both the Church and Mary are considered to be the Ark of the New Covenant but as I see it, only Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.

Ok. I will not spend my time looking for it, however. Just questions to consider…

Do you not consider yourself, also, the ark of the New Testament?

Is this not the same thing as a temple of the Holy Spirit? Do you not receive the Eucharist? Did Jesus not give His Apostles His Body and Blood through their priestly appointing at the last supper?

 

[SjMelnychuk]

I never said I deny a mystical connection.

Take a look at the Triune Nature of God!

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

Do you not believe that God is 3 separate persons yet fully God (one God)
This is a mystery not easily understood but Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not the Holy Spirit but there is one God in 3 persons Father, Son, Spirit.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the New Covenant? I believe it is biblically more accurate to say the Holy Spirit is not the New Covenant. Jesus, a separate Person in the Trinity of God is the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit did not die and suffer on the Cross, that was Jesus who became the Sacrificial lamb and our New Covenant. The Eucharist is the blessed host of the blood body and divinity of Jesus NOT the Holy Spirit. However, being a temple of the Holy Spirit does not take away the mystical connection similarly the mystery of the Triune Nature of God. It is not easily understood. Both the mystical connection of 1 God as 3 persons so is the mystical connection of being the Bride of Christ and the Church being viewed in the feminine in our response to our relationship with Jesus.

Who’s our New Covenant?
What do you believe about the Eucharist?
How do you understand the Triune nature of God?

 

[rcwitness]

I never said I deny a mystical connection.

Understood. I think we are talking past each other.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the New Covenant?

Im saying the reception of the Holy Spirit through Jesus is the New Covenant.

Who’s our New Covenant?
What do you believe about the Eucharist?
How do you understand the Triune nature of God?

The New Covenant is not so much the person of Jesus, as the Covenant that He brought for us.

What I believe about the Eucharist is an endless treasure! In this context that we’re discussing, is that we receive the Word made flesh just as Mary had. We ought to receive in a clear conscience, or state of grace to benefit His goodness.

I understand the Trinity as three divine persons united by perfect love, whom are equally God.