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TCostello
Guest
Based on the numerous responses to this question, I think it’s been answered pretty well. I can only offer my stance on the question which is that when I am in the presence of Jesus, I want to show him the utmost love and respect that I have for him by kneeling and bowing to Him. I truly do love Jesus and I am in no way ashamed (or implying that anyone else is) by kneeling and showing my reverence to Him. I also dress modestly out of respect for my station in life (a woman) as well as wear a mantilla whenever I enter a chapel…again, to show my love and respect. For me, these are some ways that I may show an outward sign of my love and reverence.
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Rawb
Guest
We become members of God’s Church in baptism. This is also when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us. God gives us life, yes, but in order for God to be inside us we then have to invite Him in. This is done through baptism. He is not, I don’t believe, present whether we like it or not. If we don’t like it, if we don’t want Him present, He is not there (except in the sense that He is everywhere)
I live in California. I might have to deal with people like this more than in other areas of the country.
Well, it is a personal choice to become Catholic, yes, but then one has to abide by the rules of their rite, so it is not a personal decision whether to stand, kneel, or sit at Mass. (Traditional Catholic is not a ‘rite’ BTW, it’s a spirituality) Your rite is not decided by you either; you inherit your rite from your father. If your father is Latin, you are Latin. If your father is Chaldean, you are Chaldean, etc.
It is possible for one to switch rites, but this is up to the bishops of both rites, and a long period of living as if you were already a member of the different rite is required. During that time you would learn the symbolism behind the postures of a different culture, and learn to adopt them as your own. As such kneeling would cease to have the connotations of the west for you, and standing would gain the connotations of the east. Am I making sense?
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simple_soul
Guest
You are macking sense but I still have a couple more questions. What do you meen when you say that Traditional Catholics are a spirituality and what is the sense that God is everywhere?
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Rawb
Guest
Traditional Catholicism is a spirituality…well, someone who says they’re a traditional Catholic means, in general, that they prefer the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, and more traditional devotions, such as Lectio Divina, the rosary, daily Mass, etc. and have a strong appreciation of the use of Latin in the Liturgy and in prayer. They are, however, members of the Latin Rite (though other rites might have their own traditional Catholics too).
Basically the expression of the Catholic faith is more in line with what you would see in the 1940’s, 1800’s, 1700’s, etc. Traditional Catholics have a mistrust of innovation in the Liturgy and in devotions. Do you see? They’re still Latin Rite Catholics, just their expression of that faith uses the traditional symbols, rites, and prayers.
God is everywhere in the sense that 1) He created everything, so everything He created is a reflection of Him and show that He exists (just like if you made a clay doll, well, someone is going to know that someone made the clay doll, it didn’t just appear, so the existence of the doll implies, or even necessitates, your existence.) Also 2) in the sense that God see’s and knows everything, so must be everywhere.
This is distinct from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which comes from Baptism and Confirmation, and from His real presence in the Sacrament of the Altar.
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simple_soul
Guest
So the notion of the Spirit of God being Life itself and everything having the Spirit of Life in them is not Having God in them? For some reason I thought one’s soul was where God was inside of you?
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Basically the expression of the Catholic faith is more in line with what you would see in the 1940’s, 1800’s, 1700’s, etc.
**Actually, “expressions of Catholic faith” have varied considerably throughout the centuries.
As one liturgical scholar said, Western liturgy and spirituality are littered with discarded devotion; e.g., the now suppressed Votive Mass “Of the Five Wounds”.**
**Actually, “expressions of Catholic faith” have varied considerably throughout the centuries.
As one liturgical scholar said, Western liturgy and spirituality are littered with discarded devotion; e.g., the now suppressed Votive Mass “Of the Five Wounds”.**
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Rawb
Guest
Correct. Having life does not mean God is living within you, except in the sense that God is the author of all life (like I said before, everything He created in a way is a reflection of Him). “Where” God resides is an odd way of looking at it, but as you’re born with a soul, but not born with God living inside you, we can’t infer that having a soul means having God live within you.
Well obviously.
I said “more in line with”, not “is an exact replica of everything in the past”. That would be stagnant.
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bratz
Guest
It looks like you got all kinds of answers to the question, some have part of it while others are just goofy!
Here is a bit of history – Kneeling coincides with the Church’s centuries old ordinance that only the consecrated hands of a priest touch the Body of Christ in Holy Communion. Also see your New Testament Scriptures - “In the name of Jesus every knee shall bend” (Phillipians @:10). This is a timely topic since, according to Vatican liturgist Msgr. Guido Marini, the pope is trying to set the stage for the whole Church as to the proper norm for receiving Communion for which reason communicants at his papal Masses are now asked to kneel and receive on the tongue. Pope Benedict XVI does not want the faithful receiving Communion in their hand nor does he want them standing to receive Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. His reasoning is simple: “We Christians kneel before the Blessed Sacrament because, therein, we know and believe to be in the presence of the One True God” (May 22, 2008). The Holy Father is doing his part to try to purge the Church of abuse and we as members of Christ are called upon to assist him. The new prefect for the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, in speaking to Life Site News on July 22, 2009 Stated, “It is the mission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Sacraments to work to promote Pope Benedict’s emphasis on the traditional practices of the liturgy, such as reception of Communion on the tongue while kneeling”.
The Pope, on May 22nd of this year likewise stated, “Kneeling in adoration before the Eucharist is the most valid and radical remedy against the idolatries of yesterday and today”.
Kneeling is a sign of allegiance; to being subject to; being dependant upon. When performed during the Eucharist, we give ourselves to the will of Jesus who is contained in the appearances of bread and wine and we worship Him and approach Him in humility.
Symbols are important and customs have meaning. Liturgical customs are important and they inform us and are most helpful in forming our attitude in worship. An old Church adage is “as we pray, so shall we worship” We do not approach our awesome God as an equal but on our knee as humble servants. The casual approach to Liturgy so often seen today has been a terrible mistake. Reception of communion on the tongue from the hands of the priest is a worthy custom and should be retained. Pope Paul VI in his May 1969 pastoral letter to the world’s bishops reaffirmed the Church’s teaching on the reception of Communin, stating that: “This method on the tongue must be retained”. (Memoriale Domini). The Council of Rouen(650 A.D.) condemned the practice of Communion in the hand as sacriligious. “Do not put the Eucharist in the hands of any layperson, but only in their mouths”. To date this prohibition has never been overturned legally no matter that most bishops have allowed it to happen in their jurisdictions. Symbols and customs individually may seem to be silly or unimportant, but in reality they are important in strengthening our Catholic teachings. Again: Lex orandi, lex credendi!
Here is a bit of history – Kneeling coincides with the Church’s centuries old ordinance that only the consecrated hands of a priest touch the Body of Christ in Holy Communion. Also see your New Testament Scriptures - “In the name of Jesus every knee shall bend” (Phillipians @:10). This is a timely topic since, according to Vatican liturgist Msgr. Guido Marini, the pope is trying to set the stage for the whole Church as to the proper norm for receiving Communion for which reason communicants at his papal Masses are now asked to kneel and receive on the tongue. Pope Benedict XVI does not want the faithful receiving Communion in their hand nor does he want them standing to receive Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. His reasoning is simple: “We Christians kneel before the Blessed Sacrament because, therein, we know and believe to be in the presence of the One True God” (May 22, 2008). The Holy Father is doing his part to try to purge the Church of abuse and we as members of Christ are called upon to assist him. The new prefect for the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, in speaking to Life Site News on July 22, 2009 Stated, “It is the mission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Sacraments to work to promote Pope Benedict’s emphasis on the traditional practices of the liturgy, such as reception of Communion on the tongue while kneeling”.
The Pope, on May 22nd of this year likewise stated, “Kneeling in adoration before the Eucharist is the most valid and radical remedy against the idolatries of yesterday and today”.
Kneeling is a sign of allegiance; to being subject to; being dependant upon. When performed during the Eucharist, we give ourselves to the will of Jesus who is contained in the appearances of bread and wine and we worship Him and approach Him in humility.
Symbols are important and customs have meaning. Liturgical customs are important and they inform us and are most helpful in forming our attitude in worship. An old Church adage is “as we pray, so shall we worship” We do not approach our awesome God as an equal but on our knee as humble servants. The casual approach to Liturgy so often seen today has been a terrible mistake. Reception of communion on the tongue from the hands of the priest is a worthy custom and should be retained. Pope Paul VI in his May 1969 pastoral letter to the world’s bishops reaffirmed the Church’s teaching on the reception of Communin, stating that: “This method on the tongue must be retained”. (Memoriale Domini). The Council of Rouen(650 A.D.) condemned the practice of Communion in the hand as sacriligious. “Do not put the Eucharist in the hands of any layperson, but only in their mouths”. To date this prohibition has never been overturned legally no matter that most bishops have allowed it to happen in their jurisdictions. Symbols and customs individually may seem to be silly or unimportant, but in reality they are important in strengthening our Catholic teachings. Again: Lex orandi, lex credendi!
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Aramis
Guest
Nor, for that matter, has the first ecumenical council’s Canon barring kneeling on sundays or from Pascha to Ascension, been revoked by any ecumenical council of the whole church.
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simple_soul
Guest
OK if what you are saying is true then I do not understand the fallowing:Correct. Having life does not mean God is living within you, except in the sense that God is the author of all life (like I said before, everything He created in a way is a reflection of Him). “Where” God resides is an odd way of looking at it, but as you’re born with a soul, but not born with God living inside you, we can’t infer that having a soul means having God live within you.
Well obviously.
If God is Life then how can we have Life in us if He is not in us. I have heard that the Holy Spirit is the Breath of Life. If it was not for this Breath of Life we would not have Life in us.
Are you saying that this is incorrect also?
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Freshman88
Guest
?Are you kidding?Have you not read the other threads and forums? If you have then you might understand if you don’t understand then you are “willfully blind”. Yes I know we are supposed to turn the other check but as some but it when I was young “you only have two checks”.
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simple_soul
Guest
Dear Rawb,
Since I never got an answer for my last post I went ahead and did a little researching at the Holy See web site and I am posting a few links to what I found. Please read and let me know what you think.
vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-40_en.html
vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-1_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061115_en.html#top
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Rawb
Guest
Sorry I stopped posting. A combination of Church duties, work, and school has made me very busy recently, and, in all honesty, I forgot about the existence of this topic.
But when we say The Spirit of Life, we mean the life of living in Christ. We are dead in sin, we are reborn and have new life in Christ. The Holy Spirit comes into us at Baptism, giving us that new life, where we are no longer dead in Sin. Without the Holy Spirit living within us, we wouldn’t be living, in the sense that we would be dead in sin.
Life in the sense that the world means it, as in being ambulatory, feeling, breathing, undergoing cellular respiration, whatever definition they’re using, is not what is being spoken about in these passages, usually, unless they are referring to the original moment of creation when God breathes life into you, in which case they are referencing that biological function called life.
The difference between the two can be easily inferred from the surrounding passages, in my experience.
God creates life, yes, this is true. Because He’s made it, in a sense, it reflects Him (as I said before). It has His touch on it. This is all true.
But when we say The Spirit of Life, we mean the life of living in Christ. We are dead in sin, we are reborn and have new life in Christ. The Holy Spirit comes into us at Baptism, giving us that new life, where we are no longer dead in Sin. Without the Holy Spirit living within us, we wouldn’t be living, in the sense that we would be dead in sin.
Life in the sense that the world means it, as in being ambulatory, feeling, breathing, undergoing cellular respiration, whatever definition they’re using, is not what is being spoken about in these passages, usually, unless they are referring to the original moment of creation when God breathes life into you, in which case they are referencing that biological function called life.
The difference between the two can be easily inferred from the surrounding passages, in my experience.
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soflochristmas
Guest
Good Lord…thank God…enough said.
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soflochristmas
Guest
I think people have answered your question…it may not be the answers you were looking for but…
- It’s in the bible (when and why)
- it’s a proper posture for adoration (before the Eucharist and Christ before you)…(why)
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RNRobert
Guest
Yep…:yup:
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simple_soul
Guest
Hi soflochristmas,
Thank you for your post. As for it ansering my question, not really. The kneeling I am talking about is durring Mass. When did it become a disiplin/tradition to kneel durring Mass. I have heard said that the Whole Church East and West used to stand for the majority of mass/Liturgy so since I have been to both I have noticed that the Eastern and Orthodox for the, most part, stand even durring Consecration so I was just wanting to know if anyone knew when the Roman Catholic Church started kneeling and what Theology they used to change from primarily standing to primarily kneeling. That is all.
Do you know what time period in history that this change took place? If you do would you mind enlightening me.
Thank you in advance and God bless
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diggerdomer
Guest
The Middle Ages
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soflochristmas
Guest
Why would kneeling during Mass…the highest form of worship…be any different from kneeling during any other time…in scripture, history or theology?
Are you curious for historical reasons or other reasons? What would you do or think differently if you found out it was first used yesterday as opposed to 2,000 years ago? Answer is probably somewhere inbetween but I don’t see what it matters or pertains to the question of the thread…why do Christians kneel.
Again, I think the “theology” behind it (as explained through biblical example and the importance of variuos postures) has been explained.
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