Why Do Roman Catholics Kneel?

[Through_Him]

I was up north last weekend so attended St. Francis of Assisi . At the beginning of the Mass, they played Holy God we praise thy name and everyone kneeled at the first verse and then stood the last. I thought that was very respectful we chanted/sang the Our Father. It was a normal Mass. But they had a kneeler up front to receive in the hand or on the tongue, that was nice. Then at noon there was a Latin Mass, so the 8 and 10:30 weren’t even Latin. They have a monthly Polish Mass. The church is new 2004, but built basically like a mission Church not a fancy one at all, and they had had one, a very plain one for years before. They had candles small/hourly and a week one that I lit for my priest who is ill but is much better now, Thank you Lord. They do not have a school but have a large youth center, for religious classes, as they want to support the new K-12 public all over school for the area. It was so different but nice and there is an outdoor shrine for the Holy Rosary near by. Seems Franciscan. So maybe St.Francis started the kneeling. I would like to think that whenever it was it was right.

 

[simple_soul]

Why would kneeling during Mass…the highest form of worship…be any different from kneeling during any other time…in scripture, history or theology?

Are you curious for historical reasons or other reasons? What would you do or think differently if you found out it was first used yesterday as opposed to 2,000 years ago? Answer is probably somewhere inbetween but I don’t see what it matters or pertains to the question of the thread…why do Christians kneel.

Again, I think the “theology” behind it (as explained through biblical example and the importance of variuos postures) has been explained.

The only reason I would like to know is for my own conscience sake. Period!

The OP is why do “Roman Catholics Kneel”. Not why do “Christians Kneel”.

 

[simple_soul]

The Middle Ages

Thank you at least now I have a time period maybe I can find more info on the internet.

 

[Walking_Home]

The only reason I would like to know is for my own conscience sake. Period!

The OP is why do “Roman Catholics Kneel”. Not why do “Christians Kneel”.

---

Card. Joseph Ratzinger’s (now Pope Benedict XVI)—Theology of Kneeling-- from his book --Spirit of the Liturgy.

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/814/Theology_of_Kneeling_Cardinal_Ratzinger.html

 

[Julie_L]

Unleavened bread was introduced into the Latin Rite around the 9th century, but when did they switch from standing to kneeling?

Western-rite Orthodox (see of Antioch) have adapted Western liturgical texts, but do they stand or kneel in them?

Unleavened bread was used at the Last Supper… Wouldn’t the Apostles also use unleavened bread when celebrating the Last Supper? I would think that the Catholic church has always used this???

Where do you get the 9th century proof from?

 

[jdwood983]

Kneeling (not genuflecting) started here in America. My guess is that when we as Catholics saw the puritans and quackers put pews AND kneelers in their meeting halls, we thought that was a neat idea. The irony is that we kept both the kneeler and the pew and the protestants did not.

This is just very wrong and misleading Linuse. Roman Catholics have been kneeling far longer than America has been in existence, prior to even the Protestant Reformation. In fact, Puritans are very against the idea of kneeling because Tertullian wrote against kneeling. The Quakers also are against kneeling (but I have yet to find the reasoning).

In the Western culture, kneeling is a sign of respect from a lower citizen to a higher citizen. That is why serfs and fiefs knelt to their lords and kings, and why we, servants, kneel to Our Lord, the King of Kings.

 

[Halos1n2Horns]

Simple one

my question to you is this, Why did Moses kneel before the burning bush, on the Mountian, and remove his sandels?

Do you think it was because he was on Sacred grounds and before the God the Almighty?

Do you kneel in prayer?

In the bible it says to Kneel before the Lord and venerate him? what do you do?

 

[simple_soul]

Simple one

my question to you is this, Why did Moses kneel before the burning bush, on the Mountian, and remove his sandels?

Do you think it was because he was on Sacred grounds and before the God the Almighty?

Do you kneel in prayer?

In the bible it says to Kneel before the Lord and venerate him? what do you do?

I do kneel in prayer sometimes in private and sometimes in groups but never at Divine Liturgy unless it is a Presanctified Liturgy durring Great Lent.

My reason? I am attaching a link here of the Apostolic Letter Dies Domini of the Holy Father John Paul II to the Bishops, Clergy and Faithful of the Catholic Church on Keeping the Lord’s Day Holy. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

The fallowing is taken from that Apostolic Letter Chapter IV but I do recommend reading the whole letter.

1. “Blessed be he who has raised the great day of Sunday above all other days. The heavens and the earth, angels and of men give themselves over to joy”.(99) This cry of the Maronite liturgy captures well the intense acclamations of joy which have always characterized Sunday in the liturgy of both East and West. Moreover, historically — even before it was seen as a day of rest, which in any case was not provided for in the civil calendar — Christians celebrated the weekly day of the Risen Lord primarily as a day of joy. “On the first day of the week, you shall all rejoice”, urges the Didascalia. (100) This was also emphasized by liturgical practice, through the choice of appropriate gestures. (101) Voicing an awareness widespread in the Church, Saint Augustine describes the joy of the weekly Easter: “Fasting, is set aside and prayers are said standing, as a sign of the Resurrection, which is also why the Alleluia is sung on every Sunday”. (102)

So my question still remains If St. Augustine had this insight and he is a geat father of the Catholic Church and John Paul II sharred this insight with him why was the celebration of Liturgy changed.

And on a side note Mosses was under the Old Covenant.

I do sincerely hope you do read the attached Apostolic Letter.

 

[Walking_Home]

I do kneel in prayer sometimes in private and sometimes in groups but never at Divine Liturgy unless it is a Presanctified Liturgy durring Great Lent.

My reason? I am attaching a link here of the Apostolic Letter Dies Domini of the Holy Father John Paul II to the Bishops, Clergy and Faithful of the Catholic Church on Keeping the Lord’s Day Holy. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html

The fallowing is taken from that Apostolic Letter Chapter IV but I do recommend reading the whole letter.

1. “Blessed be he who has raised the great day of Sunday above all other days. The heavens and the earth, angels and of men give themselves over to joy”.(99) This cry of the Maronite liturgy captures well the intense acclamations of joy which have always characterized Sunday in the liturgy of both East and West. Moreover, historically — even before it was seen as a day of rest, which in any case was not provided for in the civil calendar — Christians celebrated the weekly day of the Risen Lord primarily as a day of joy. “On the first day of the week, you shall all rejoice”, urges the Didascalia. (100) This was also emphasized by liturgical practice, through the choice of appropriate gestures. (101) Voicing an awareness widespread in the Church, Saint Augustine describes the joy of the weekly Easter: “Fasting, is set aside and prayers are said standing, as a sign of the Resurrection, which is also why the Alleluia is sung on every Sunday”. (102)

---

You mis-understood Pope John Paul II in Dies Domini. His insight does not extend to the standing–but focuses on Sunday–the Lord’s day itself. Notice that in the very next sentence that follows no. 55 (which you posted)—the Pope dismisses the idea of standing as proposed by St. Augustine.

1. Beyond particular ritual forms, which can vary in time depending upon Church discipline, there remains the fact that Sunday, as a weekly echo of the first encounter with the Risen Lord, is unfailingly marked by the joy with which the disciples greeted the Master:

 

[simple_soul]

---

You mis-understood Pope John Paul II in Dies Domini. His insight does not extend to the standing–but focuses on Sunday–the Lord’s day itself. Notice that in the very next sentence that follows no. 55 (which you posted)—the Pope dismisses the idea of standing as proposed by St. Augustine.

1. Beyond particular ritual forms, which can vary in time depending upon Church discipline, there remains the fact that Sunday, as a weekly echo of the first encounter with the Risen Lord, is unfailingly marked by the joy with which the disciples greeted the Master:

I do not believe I mis-understood anything. I know ritual forms and disciplines are different and that is why I am trying to understand the reason why and when the Roman Catholics started to kneel durring Mass/Liturgy instead of standing.

If you had read the post that I was responding to, you would have known that they where asking me a question and I was just answering it.

Out of what you quoted I do not believe he is dismissing St.Augustin’s “idea” of standing. But he does acknowledge “other ritual forms”.

I have started reading what you posted earlier will try to finish tonight but I was wondering if you had any knowledge of when the discipline of kneeling started in the Roman Catholic Church?

Thank you for your time…

 

[Julie_L]

I do not believe I mis-understood anything. I know ritual forms and disciplines are different and that is why I am trying to understand the reason why and when the Roman Catholics started to kneel durring Mass/Liturgy instead of standing.

If you had read the post that I was responding to, you would have known that they where asking me a question and I was just answering it.

Out of what you quoted I do not believe he is dismissing St.Augustin’s “idea” of standing. But he does acknowledge “other ritual forms”.

I have started reading what you posted earlier will try to finish tonight but I was wondering if you had any knowledge of when the discipline of kneeling started in the Roman Catholic Church?

Thank you for your time…

On the “Catholic Encyclopedia” website. It says:

“The practice of kneeling during the Consecration was introduced during the Middle Ages, and is in relation with the Elevation which originated in the same period.”

Hope this helps.
Jules

 

[Walking_Home]

I do not believe I mis-understood anything. I know ritual forms and disciplines are different and that is why I am trying to understand the reason why and when the Roman Catholics started to kneel durring Mass/Liturgy instead of standing.

If you had read the post that I was responding to, you would have known that they where asking me a question and I was just answering it.

Out of what you quoted I do not believe he is dismissing St.Augustin’s “idea” of standing. But he does acknowledge “other ritual forms”.

I have started reading what you posted earlier will try to finish tonight but I was wondering if you had any knowledge of when the discipline of kneeling started in the Roman Catholic Church?

Thank you for your time…

quote=simple soul
I do kneel in prayer sometimes in private and sometimes in groups but never at Divine Liturgy

---

I read both --the post you responded to—and your response. You did answer Halos1n2Horms -but you included that you never kneel in the Divine Liturgy. Then you state --"My reason?— This is where you brought in John Paul II’s Dies Domini. You followed with your view that John Paul II “shared the same insight” as St. Augustine as to standing being “the” form for the Liturgy. Well your view was flawed because in the next sentence Pope John Paul II --dismissed standing as being “the” form–since the form can change.

 

[simple_soul]

---

I read both --the post you responded to—and your response. You did answer Halos1n2Horms -but you included that you never kneel in the Divine Liturgy. Then you state --"My reason?— This is where you brought in John Paul II’s Dies Domini. You followed with your view that John Paul II “shared the same insight” as St. Augustine as to standing being “the” form for the Liturgy. Well your view was flawed because in the next sentence Pope John Paul II --dismissed standing as being “the” form–since the form can change.

The reason I used what John Paul II said about standing is because I believe that it is the reason or Theology for the Rite that I belong to. I was not answering the question for anyone else’s form in thier Rite. And again I do not believe he ever “dissmisses” standing he just acknowledges other forms and that they can vary in time depending on Church discipline.

 

[Walking_Home]

The reason I used what John Paul II said about standing is because I believe that it is the reason or Theology for the Rite that I belong to. I was not answering the question for anyone else’s form in thier Rite. And again I do not believe he ever “dissmisses” standing he just acknowledges other forms and that they can vary in time depending on Church discipline.

quote=simple soul
So my question still remains If St. Augustine had this insight and he is a geat father of the Catholic Church and John Paul II sharred this insight with him why was the celebration of Liturgy changed.

---

But we are not speaking of the Eastern rites are we. Your OP was when did kneeling in the Latin Rite start and why. You used your view of John Paul II “sharing the same insight” concerning standing to be “the” norm --in order to set up and try to back yourself up in asking —why was the celebration of Liturgy changed.

 

[fritzz_ezz]

In the west, kneeling is a traditional posture of respect, trust, and devotion (such as a vassal kneeling to their Lord), love (such as a groom kneeling to his bride), and petition (“on my knees, begging”). As such, it is very appropriate for us to make this position during the Liturgy.

If this isn’t the same in the East (I really don’t know) then yeah, it doesn’t make much sense for them to kneel, (ie; the same symbolism attached to the posture isn’t there.)

We stand, as we are posturing the Risen Christ of the Ascension. It is also the proper postion to prayer per one of the first seven councils.

 

[WarriorofJesus]

Catholics kneel because that is a sign of respect that they have for God. In other words, its showing our humiliation towards God and a way of respect towards him when we pray. God likes it when we demonstrate to him that we believe we are way too inferior and nothing compared to the almighty God!

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Rawb View Post
In the west, kneeling is a traditional posture of respect, trust, and devotion (such as a vassal kneeling to their Lord), love (such as a groom kneeling to his bride), and petition (“on my knees, begging”). As such, it is very appropriate for us to make this position during the Liturgy.

---

Yes, we know you stand and why—yet Patriarch Alexei II (memory eternal) knew the value of and welcomed the return of tradition to the Latin Rite. And I am sure Patriarch Alexei knew we kneel.

Russian Orthodox Prelate Welcomes Return of Latin Mass

Moscow, Aug. 31, 2007 (CWNews.com) -

Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexei II has said that the revival of the traditional Mass will have a positive effect on relations between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

“We strongly adhere to tradition,” Patriarch Alexei said in an August interview with the Italian newspaper Il Giornale "The recovery and honoring of an ancient liturgical tradition is a development that we can welcome.

Patriarch Alexei was answering questions about the motu proprio in which Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) eased access to use of the 1962 Roman Missal. Questioned directly about recent developments in relations between Moscow and Rome, the Russian prelate noted that Pope Benedict “has repeated many times that he hopes to work toward dialogue and collaboration with the Orthodox churches.” The Russian patriarch presides over the largest Church in the Orthodox world.

catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=53230

 

[simple_soul]

---

But we are not speaking of the Eastern rites are we. Your OP was when did kneeling in the Latin Rite start and why. You used your view of John Paul II “sharing the same insight” concerning standing to be “the” norm --in order to set up and try to back yourself up in asking —why was the celebration of Liturgy changed.

Again, I was not answering my own question in that post.
I was answering the question that was raised in the post by Halos1n2Horns. Why would I try to answer my own question? I am trying to understand why Roman Catholics Kneel and when the kneeling started. That is it. As for your accusation I never ment to imply anything other than a change happened at some point and I am trying to understand the why and when of that change. I was not trying to “set up” anything. I am sorry you feel that I was trying to “set up” something. You, unfortunatly do seem to be the one who is trying to “set up” an argument here.

 

[JustaServant]

I ask the Eastern Catholics if they ever kneel and if they did not why? They in turn asked me why did the Latins start kneeling. So that is what brings me here. Whene did kneeling start and why. If some one knows the history that would be great or if some one could guide me in the right direction as to where I can find out the history that would be great too.
Thank you for your time.

“Worship” in the Bible means to bow, kneel, and prostrate one’s body and heart. One cannot change the meanings of words. East and West Catholics kneel, as do Orthodox and Anglicans.
It does not mean sitting in a pew and staring at a preacher or a worship band.

 

[Walking_Home]

Again, I was not answering my own question in that post.
I was answering the question that was raised in the post by Halos1n2Horns. Why would I try to answer my own question? I am trying to understand why Roman Catholics Kneel and when the kneeling started. That is it. As for your accusation I never ment to imply anything other than a change happened at some point and I am trying to understand the why and when of that change. I was not trying to “set up” anything. I am sorry you feel that I was trying to “set up” something. You, unfortunatly do seem to be the one who is trying to “set up” an argument here.

quote=simple soul
So my question still remains If St. Augustine had this insight and he is a geat father of the Catholic Church and John Paul II sharred this insight with him why was the celebration of Liturgy changed.

---

This is what you did: You set up two points in time line—the past and the present. The past is (St. Augustine–standing being “the” proper form)---- the present is (John Paul II) . Now you needed the present to agree with the past . You applied what was not there and made the present (John Paul II) agree with the past (St. Augustine) via “sharing the same insight” of standing being “the proper form”. So now it’s —“why was the celebration of Liturgy changed”-- when both the past and the present agree. In other words–why did the Latin Rite fall of the track (kneel) —when the past and present agree that standing is “the proper form” for the Liturgy.