Why do so many dislike modern music in Mass?

[redcatholic]

Here’s one reason. Many people go to Church for something special, something different. It makes people ache for sacred things. Something different than the plain secular world.
Another reason is the music and lyrics are poor.

 

[Irishmom2]

It would have been fairer for you to have posted the “rest of the story.” The snippet you provided only said what you feel, but distorted what the program actually lead to in the end.

 

[Peeps]

You seem to think that you can “create” reverence" or perhaps even “force” reverence if we were required to keep kneeling for tht 15 minutes.

otjm, this is not directed towards you, but towards many others on this thread, especialy c4csp.

In my case, kneeling for 15 minutes would create great pain.

I just had my knee replaced. Before the surgery, I couldn’t kneel because of the pain of the arthritic knee. And now, doctors’ orders are “No kneeling” after knee replacement surgery, at least for several months, and possibly forever. Many knee replacement patients are not able to kneel–I know several people who have not been able to kneel after knee replacement surgery.

There are plenty of other people who cannot kneel for various physical reasons.

I’ll be honest-I greatly resent the implication that people who do not kneel are irreverent.

I have a lot of issues with being suspcious or distrustful of fellow Christians (I and my family were horrifically betrayed/hurt by Christians in our last Protestant church), and this judgement about kneeling is the kind of thing that makes me not willing to trust my fellow Catholics in the pews at Mass. Yes, that lack of trust is my burden, not yours, and I am at fault for harboring it.

But have a care–show some empathy for others. Consider kneeling for 30 minutes to make up for those of us who cannot kneel.

And it IS possible for be reverent without kneeling, just as it is possible to be reverent while listening to or singing Casting Crowns or Audrey Assad. For some people, it’s actually easier to be reverent listening to Casting Crowns or Audrey Assad or even…gasp!—Marty Haugen.

 

[Irishmom2]

Out of likes, but that’s for you, @Peeps.

 

[Peeps]

If I am correct the Vatican II affirmed that the organ is the prefered liturgical instrument?

Do you play the organ?

Do/did your children take organ lessons?

How many organists do you know in your parish? How many organists do you know in your city? (If you live in a town or city with a university or college that has a noted organ program, you may know more than someone who lives in a town or city with no university or college, which is most towns or cities in the U.S.).

And the church documents specify “the pipe organ,” not just an organ. How much do you think a pipe organ costs to buy and more importantly, to maintain?

If you had to choose between spending the church tithes and offereings on a pipe organ and someone to play it, or charitable outreach programs, which would you choose?

Disclosure–I play organ and piano. i am not as skilled in the organ as I would like to be, mainly because the demand for piano at Mass in my parish is greater than the demand for our beautiful pipe organ. Does that mean we are not a “reverent parish?”

 

[Anicette]

No, to your questions.

yes, it is very difficult to find someone who knows how to play pipe organ and is volunteer to do it. Yet in all masses I have seen , i have never seen a mass without a pipe organ because of no volunteer. Some times it has been the priest plays, sometimes a friend who is a professional music teacher.

But your questions are irrelevant here. Almost all churches have an organ in France. The organs are the propriety of the town- or the State Via donations collections. It is very very expensive. It is not the Church who maintained them;

For churchs that are hold by the diocese. Here one XXth century church has a pipe organ. One former parish where the church is late XXth century has a clavecin.

It is obvious that if we were building churches here, we will not be able to build pipe organs. Too much expensive.

I am not responsible of the Church document. pipe organ was a secular roman, instrument and the Church believe that it is a proper instrument for the cult.

 

[Peeps]

So we want Gregorian chant, do we?

I accompany a great many choirs, solists, groups. I accompany in schools, churches, and secular venues.

For the last 12 years (not this year because of COVID-19), I have chaired a local youth music competition which includes a vocal (singing) division. Children and teens from 12 counties compete for cash scholarships.

So I know a lot of musicians and music teachers.

The huge majority of people in the U.S. do NOT know how to sing correctly, and would not be capable of learning Gregorian chant. They aren’t even capable of singing a simple hymn with the music right in front of them and an instrumental accompaniment helping them find and stay on pitch.

The musical education of most people in the U.S. is slim-to-none. Most people who sing do so through their nose, and have no idea what is meant by “head voice” or '“supporting.”

And they certainly do not have any idea how to read music, including neumes.

I am involved in a friendly way with the Latin Mass parish in our city, although I don’t generally attend unless there is a special event. There is a wonderful schola of men and boys, and there is at least one young lady who occasionally joins them when there are certain pieces that require a female voice. These folks know how to sing properly and they have been taught how to correctly render Gregorian and other chant.

So how are people supposed to learn to sing Gregorian chant in the typical OF parish when they don’t even learn to sing anything correctly and have no idea how to read printed notes or neumes?

WHO is going to teach them? That one little schola at the Latin Mass parish? So those men have no other life responsibilities so they have all the time in the world to organize and teach a class to every parish in our city??

Online classes? Do you honestly think people in your parish would step up to learn the Gregorian chant/chant? Would YOU step up and learn it?!!!

We used to have a boys’ choir in our city. Hundreds of boys from ages 4-18 were involved, divided into levels according to their age and maturity, with a conductor who was skilled in singing and accompanying (although generally an orchestra accompanied them). They performed chant, classical pieces, and modern works. This choir travelled all the world doing concerts, and recorded several albums. Parents were so proud of having a boy in this choir and spent thousands of dollars on tuition and fees to keep their sons in the choir. Whenever this boys’ choir held a local concert, the venue was packed and people were waiting in the lobby hoping that they could get a rare stand-by ticket. Often the concerts were broadcast on the local television channels.

For the last ten years, this choir has decreased in numbers—there are now 8 boys in the choir.

Parents just aren’t interested in getting their boys involved in music, especially a choir that includes classical music.

(continued next post)

 

[Peeps]

(continued from last post)

We have choirs in the city for children that are “contemporary”–even these choirs limp along with only a dozen or so members. The conductors are excellent and well-qualified–but it doesn’t matter. No one cares, and if they do miss classical music and chant, they don’t miss it enough to make it happen.

Would YOU sign your boys up for a classical choir in your town or city? Would YOU pay for it? Would you sign your boys (and girls) up for piano and organ lessons? (Keep in mind that most piano or organ lessons cost around $50/hour now, and more when the student reaches an advanced level.) Do you even have your children in a school with an excellent music program with music teachers who have advanced degrees or training and who teach correct methods of singing and whose choirs perform age-appropriate classical works at school concerts?

Those of you who want chant in your parish–are YOU doing the work to make it happen? Or are you just bemoaning its absence here on CAF and making those of us who DO play or sing for Mass feel bad because we are doing “irreverent” music.

I’m going to quote from our former First Lady, whom I do not care for, but her quote is appropriate here: “GET MOVING!”

 

[otjm]

Bingo!

I try to remain neutral as to anyone’s sense of spirituality, unless and until they start to criticize that of others.

The one thing in this thread that I suspect is about at least some of the people in this thread are taking pot shots at music in Mass. If it is from OCP, then a good bit of it has text which is based on Scripture. I can understand being less than enthralled by praise music, but being negative about music which i scriptural leaves me… wondering. I am well aware that there are people who have nothing good to say about OCP. But really? Dismissive of a song which uses text from Scripture?

 

[ReaderT]

There are hymns written by ascetic saints who received them directly from the lips of angels (Agni Parthene) or as a gift from the Virgin Mary (St Roman the Melodist). They are theologically deep and rich and good “nourishment”, and I think they far surpass modern compositions.

Take the following verses to Saint Luke, whose feast was yesterday:

What shall we call thee, O Apostle?
Heaven, for you have made an account of the glory of God for us?
Lightning, for you have illumined the world with radiance?
A cloud, for you rain down in a torrent the knowledge of God?
A chalice pouring the rich wine of wisdom to gladden our hearts?
Pray to the Lord that He may save our souls!

… then compare it to one of the most popular modern hymns, “All are Welcome” by Marty Haugen:

Let us build a house where love can dwell
And all can safely live,
A place where saints and children tell
How hearts learn to forgive.

No offense to Mr. Haugen but I don’t think he’s quite as deep as the supernaturally-bestowed songs of old

 

[Peeps]

Bingo!

I try to remain neutral as to anyone’s sense of spirituality, unless and until they start to criticize that of others.

The one thing in this thread that I suspect is about at least some of the people in this thread are taking pot shots at music in Mass. If it is from OCP, then a good bit of it has text which is based on Scripture. I can understand being less than enthralled by praise music, but being negative about music which i scriptural leaves me… wondering. I am well aware that there are people who have nothing good to say about OCP. But really? Dismissive of a song which uses text from Scripture?

Great post, and one that, if people will accept and use as an everyday approach to Mass/music, will bring them peace.

My gripe is when people complain about “modern music” and proclaim the need for Gregorian chant, but do little or nothing to make it happen.

Even someone who is musically-illiterate and tone deaf and has a low income can at least start pitching Gregorian chant/chant in a loving, non-condemning way to other people in the parish, and attempt to get a group of “supporters” together who DO have the knowledge and the resources to get things moving and get started with a teacher and a small schola of interested men and boys.

My dad always said that if you aren’t willing to work to make changes, then quitcherbellyakin.

I will say that anyone who is pitching chant and working to make it happen would be EXTREMELY WISE to affirm the current musicians (even if they are rockin’ guitar/drum heroes or old lady pianists!) and let their current music/liturgy director (hired or volunteer) know how much their music is appreciated. If a chant advocate says, “This music is irreverent, etc.” --that is hurtful beyond belief to musicians who have worked hard, and this type of comment or attitude is likely to make the musicians leave the parish altogether and head for a friendlier parish that will be happy to welcome them and their “irreverent” music.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In my case, kneeling for 15 minutes would create great pain.

I can’t kneel very well either. I do it but I sometimes have to prop my butt, kneel Japanese style, or take breaks. A lot depends on how the kneeler is set up, whether it is too close to the pew in front, and whether I am on a floor as opposed to kneeler. I was never all that able to kneel and a couple times have almost fainted trying to kneel for long periods at TLM. So I do what I can, and if someone else doesn’t like it, tough.

I prefer to sit comfortably when praying so that I can focus on my conversation with God and not on whether my knees are in terrible pain or whether I’ll be able to stand up without collapsing.

I suppose if my mother had made me kneel for a half hour every night starting when I was 4 I probably could have had better trained muscles, but it’s too late for that.

 

[Phemie]

Vatican II said the changes allow for “participation” in responses and in song. What is the motivation though? Participation is humbling ourselves before the Lord asking for mercy and in deep prayer as Christ goes to Father on our behalf. 99% of Catholics receive eucharist and kneel then when Jesus is put back in tabernacle, they all sit. It appears to me 99% are putting in a poor effort of participation. We should be on our knees for 15 minutes after receiving eucharist. But I get it, people need to be dismissed from mass because they have more important things to do and God cannot take up that time from them. Again, where is the pointing towards God in that.

I wish everyone had attended this one presentation at Sacred Music Boot Camp: " How Did We Get Here? The History of Sacred Music after Vatican II in the U.S. - Dr. Susan Treacy

It was very enlightening and dismaying at the same time.

It showed plainly how we got to where we are today. I say “we” because Canada is no different. We have adopted many of the things that the US is doing and the CBW III uses a lot of the most popular “hymns” coming out of the US publication houses.

By the way, if any of you could find a copy of 1967’s “The Place of Music in Eucharistic Celebrations” or the revised 1972 version (a statement by the Bishops’ Committee on Liturgy that was never officially promulgated by the USCCB but which, in practice, everyone assumed to be an official document) in your parish archives, I know several musicians who would like to get their hands on a copy, since it seems to have disappeared.

 

[goout]

Because Christianity has a teleology, music ought to express that. Music ought to “take you somewhere”.
Much of modern Catholic “youth” music has melody and rhythm that are not intuitive. By that I mean you cannot intuit where the music is going either rhythmically or melodically.
Praise and worship like Casting Crowns works, but much of the Catholic new liturgical music (like we have in the blue hymnal sorry can’t remember the name Spirit Song?) is really difficult to latch on to.

 

[ThomasMT]

I do not think all that many people do prefer Latin chants over modern music.

A simplistic speculation to make considering that not all that many people have access to such sacred liturgy. That is changing fast. Coincidentally, so are preferences. That would be my own speculation.

 

[27lw]

Ah, if only we had, I don’t know, a network of Catholic schools, that could teach children in the ways of our faith, such as our actual Catholic liturgical music…

 

[ThomasMT]

Are there any FSSP parishes that offer Catholic schooling?

 

[27lw]

Bingo!

I try to remain neutral as to anyone’s sense of spirituality, unless and until they start to criticize that of others.

The one thing in this thread that I suspect is about at least some of the people in this thread are taking pot shots at music in Mass. If it is from OCP, then a good bit of it has text which is based on Scripture. I can understand being less than enthralled by praise music, but being negative about music which i scriptural leaves me… wondering. I am well aware that there are people who have nothing good to say about OCP. But really? Dismissive of a song which uses text from Scripture?

Arrgh - texts from Scripture are the most problematic!

Because then (presumably for the rest of my life) I read a passage or phrase in Scripture, and then I have some terrible fake folk-pop song in my mind. It’s like those Catholic songwriters (and the music directors who program them) have ruined certain Bible passages.
It’s one of the reasons I would prefer to bring my children to EF Mass, so they don’t hear all those Bible passages reduced to earworms “Be not Afraid”, “On that holy mountain”. etc.

 

[Maximian]

You are confusing two things. Modern music is one thing, Latin is another.

Here is an example of part of the Latin Mass (the Gloria) set to African music composed in the 1960s.

 

[OraLabora]

I expect this has much more cultural impact on Africans than Gregorian chant (which I love, but which is not necessarily appropriate all the time).

As for modern music, in my part of the world, it is in French, and I find it universally awful (or I did when I would attend parish masses; now I only do so with our Gregorian schola). Quite apart from the lyrics (which can be OK), the problem is that it is often too syncopated and thus, impossible to sing well. Which goes very much against Sacrosanctum Concilium’s desire for full lay participation!

I honestly find Gregorian chant easier to sing than some modern syncopated melodies. I once attended Mass at a Cistercian (common observance) monastery nearby. It was the Propers set to simple French plainchant melodies. I thought it worked very well; I wish that’s what was used in parishes most of the time. It was easy to read and sing, it was scriptural, and to address the problem @27lw mentions, they don’t sound like laundry detergent advertising jingles that we can’t shake out of our heads

Sometimes though, I can’t get this or that chant out of my head either… recently for some reason Gloria Laus was one such piece (entrance procession for Palm Sunday, and I didn’t even attend Palm Sunday Mass this year due to the pandemic). Shoot, now it’s started again