Why do so many dislike modern music in Mass?

[Anesti33]

One of the primary differences between modern and older music is the quality.

Now hear me out. The thing is that the bad music from past times does not tend to survive. The classics and the smash hits are kept while the bombs are left to moulder. The reason moderns love “Classical” music (such as symphony orchestras) is because prolific virtuosos literally drowned out the bad stuff in their time with prodigious output of magnificent stuff for the ages.

Modern music is great! There are a lot of hymns and songs that I love that are modern! But there’s lots of junk mixed in. The nature of the recording and publishing industries today means the Signal:Noise ratio is low. So that’s why I have a distaste for modern music, because of the noise. But give it 100 years, and the noise will fade into the background just as it always does.

Oh, by the way, the good stuff drowns out some of the older good stuff as well, so it’s not a constant process of refinement, just replacement.

IMHO.

 

[Maximian]

I expect this has much more cultural impact on Africans than Gregorian chant (which I love, but which is not necessarily appropriate all the time).

It was a massive hit. It was used in trendy films like “If”

 

[Peeps]

Ah, if only we had, I don’t know, a network of Catholic schools, that could teach children in the ways of our faith, such as our actual Catholic liturgical music…

Ah, if only we had…a network of Catholic schools that the majority of Catholics could afford, especially during a pandemic that has pretty much torched our U.S. economy!

27lw, my husband and I sent our children to a secular private prep school that cost a fortune. This school required a foreign language from age 3 through 12th grade, and the majority of the students selected Latin to fulfil the requirement. (Our daughters selected French.). The school produced students who achieved some of the highest scores in the U.S. on the National Latin Exam. Just last year, I listened to one of the teachers from that school deliver an oratory in Latin–and the students listened, too! Most of them have no belief in religion, other than the Jewish and Muslim students in that school.

Our city has only a few elementary Catholic schools now, all in the “good neighborhoods.” The parishes in the “poor” neighborhoods could not afford to keep the schools going.

We have an exemplary Catholic high school, and I know that Latin is taught there. I also know that the music education at the school is wonderful.

But…the kids who graduate from that Catholic high school aren’t asking for Latin or chant in their parishes.

And they don’t abandon their family parishes to attend the Latin Mass parish in our city.

I think…that the people who love Latin and chant really LOVE !!! Latin and chant. But…I don’t think there are as many of them as you think there are, and I think that their enthusiasm and LOVE!!! for Latin and chant is not contagious.

It’s been tried several times in my parish over the last ten years–at least once a year, the music director has selected a Latin setting for the Mass, and all of the cantors sing it, and the congregation just stands there. (I think that those who love a Latin Mass feel uncomfortable singing something that in their day, was only sung by the priests.)

Most of these Latin settings sound very strange when accompanied by piano, so I don’t usually play when they are being used–I’ll give the starting pitch, and let the cantor lead it. I think this makes the congregation feel uncomfortable, but it sounds very strange to try to accompany any kind of chanting on a piano. Organ, maybe, but I’m not a good enough organist to be able to accompany chant and know what registration to use, and it sounds…uncomfortable.

After a few months, we are back to doing the Mass in our vernacular, which is English, and people are enthusiastically participating again.

Anyway, I honestly think there are a lot less Latin and chant proponents than the Latin and chant enthusiasts think. And I don’t think that’s going to change in most parishes in most towns and cities. I’m sorry.

 

[Irishmom2]

I suppose if my mother had made me kneel for a half hour every night starting when I was 4 I

At first I thought that said when you were 41… it was next to each other in your post.

 

[otjm]

terrible fake folk-pop song in my mind.

Okay, that is a personal opinion. I am not going to argue that; but I find that most of the people going to the OF Masses would disagree with your categorization.

There are a few I don’t like, but that may be as much due to over-use as anything. And I will refrain from mentioning any, but one which comes from Isiah I find particularly moving.

And there is the phrase I learned about 65 years ago: “To each his own said the old lady as she kissed the cow”.

 

[SMHW]

I stand by my statement, at least for English speaking Catholics.

I do think interest in Latin chants is growing, particularly with younger Catholics. But I think that if you count people who like both chant and modern music and those who want only modern music, they still outnumber those who want only chant.

I am not considering those who don’t want any music of any style. And there are also those people who like hymns and sacred polyphony, (some of which have a basis in Latin chants,) but they don’t actually qualify as either chant or modern music.

 

[27lw]

Does it matter what people like or want, or does it matter what the Church instructs us to use?
@Peeps you say that there are Catholic schools in your area but do they teach and encourage the authentic liturgical music of the Church? I doubt it.

 

[Peeps]

Does it matter what people like or want, or does it matter what the Church instructs us to use?

Oh, I agree with you.

What are you doing to get your local parishes on board with using the music that you believe the Church instructs us to use (Latin, Gregorian chant, pipe organ)?

Yes, that phrase “what you believe the Church instructs us to use” is intentional. Sacrosanctum Concilium by no means limits Mass to pipe organ and Gregorian chant.

1. …Gregorian chant…should be given pride of place in liturgical services. Other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations…

I could quote more paraphraphs, in particular 119, which is about “people who have their own musical tradition” and “their music should be held in due esteem and should be given a suitable role…”

The mere fact that throughout the United States, “modern” music is heard at many Masses should make us think a little harder and use common sense. Surely we cannot accuse the good bishops and priests in all of these areas of any kind of wrong-doing because they are not using Gregorian chant and pipe organ in all their Masses.

The logical conclusion is that there are good reasons why Gregorian chant and pipe organ are not being used regularly, and common sense and experience with American life tells us that in all likelihood, there is a lack of knowledge of Gregorian chant and the vocal techniques needed, as well as a lack of skilled organists.

Expressing displeasure with parishes and congregations that use “modern music” and “guitars, piano, drums” is not the answer.

Somehow, those Catholics who are convicted in their souls that the Church needs more Gregorian chant and pipe organ in the Masses need to put together an action plan that will result in more Christian/Catholic musicians and music teachers who are knowledgeable about teaching Gregorian chant and other chant to laypeople, and also more Chrisitians/Catholics who are willing to take organ lessons AND…very important–parishes that are willing to open up their naves to allow organ students to practice on those organs! ( I only started making significant progress in my organ lessons after my brother bought me an organ for my home–a real organ, not a “fun organ” from the mall. Up until then, I had struggled to find times when my parish would allow me to practice, and I did most of my practicing in a friendly Lutheran church that actually showed me where the key to their church was hidden.)

We will not see more chant and organ in Mass until there are more musicians who are knowledgeable enough to teach it to laypeople. This kind of music doesn’t just happen because people really really want it. The skills must be learned.

 

[PeterT]

It would have been fairer for you to have posted the “rest of the story.” The snippet you provided only said what you feel, but distorted what the program actually lead to in the end.

As you wish…

 

[felsguy]

And there is the phrase I learned about 65 years ago: “To each his own said the old lady as she kissed the cow”.

Haven’t heard anyone say that in many years but I think it is very apropos here.

 

[Anesti33]

It is a shame that the Funeral thread in Casual is locked now, because I just realized the perfect hymn for my Requiem.

 

[27lw]

May I propose an analogy?
The dumbing down and pop styling of Catholic Church music lends itself to the following metaphor, I think.
Let’s say that during the 1960s, during the “youthquake” movement, that Church officials decided that crucifixes were too old-fashioned, unappealing, and didn’t express the tastes of the times.
Instead of the old-fashioned crucifixes, Church officials decided that each parish should get a new crucifix, made in a comic book style. Perhaps something like a giant Roy Lichtenstein version of a crucified Christ, or even just a Marvel or DC version. Perhaps even ALL the statuary and artwork would be trashed and replaced by the new comic book style.
And if people didn’t like it or complained, they would just be told that it was in the spirit of the council.
I wonder how long people would put up with that?
And 50, 60 years later, some parishes would still be stuck with the pop style art of the 1960s /70s.
Is that an apt analogy to what happened to the music at Catholic Mass? I think so.

 

[Aslan]

“He who sings prays twice.” Attributed to St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas. Regardless of who said it, I always liked the sentiment. Singing is worship.

 

[27lw]

“He who sings prays twice.” Attributed to St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas. Regardless of who said it, I always liked the sentiment. Singing is worship.

Oops, you left out “well”. He who sings “well” prays twice.
Or something like that…

St. Augustine: “He who sings prays twice” | Fr. Z's Blog

 

[Peeps]

Let us build a house where love can dwell
And all can safely live,
A place where saints and children tell
How hearts learn to forgive.

I like the ancient hymn that you posted, but honestly–this Haugen hymn speaks to me and I’m sure, many others, in a very real way.

“Building a house” in this hymn refers to building up our local church. Peeps and Mr. Peeps were horribly hurt by a Evangelical Protestant church–after 47 years of faithful service in various Evangelical Churches, Peeps and Mr. Peeps ran crying out of that awful church and REJECTED “church” for almost a year.

Peeps had horrific nightmares (violent–eg., one nightmare had Peeps and Mr. Peeps waiting in a line to have our legs chopped off by church pastors–Mr. Peeps kept trying to pull up his socks, and Peeps was screaming at him that it didn’t matter–we were about to lose our legs. I still get upset when I remember that nightmare, but it was typical of what I was experiencing).

At that time, Mr. Haugen’s hymn would have been exremely “deep” for Peeps–I had experienced good Evangelical Protestant churches where saints and children loved each other, lived “safely,” and practiced forgiveness. To lose that trust after our awful experience at 'church" was to lose all hope that a "house (church) could really be built that would be safe, loving, and forgiving.

After a year of no church, no Bible, and prayers that were basically hysterical crying, God finally led us to the Catholic church down the street from us–and there, I discovered a “house where love can dwell.”

So just because a hymn does not reach out to YOUR soul does not make that hymn trivial or useless.

One of the “deepest” hymns I know of is the very simple but profound hymn, “Jesus Loves Me, This I Know.” That message is the gist of the Gospel message that we are trying to preach and teach to the whole world.

And think about this–ALL hymns are “given” to people here on earth by God. I don’t believe there is any such thing as a “man-created” hymn–we may, in our human frailty, fail to capture the “depth” of God’s message with profound language or melody–but God is the one who helps musicians write and sing/play his hymns, sons, and spiritual songs. To believe that they are “of man” is…well, I think it’s approaching denying God’s work.

Another way to look at it is this way–some people prefer a diet that includes broiled swordfish, poached asparagus, and creme brulee, while others enjoy a piece of fried catfish, a stack of boiled green beans, and a dish of Schwans’ Ice cream.

They are equivalent in the nutritional value (although some might question the “frying” of the catfish), but very different.

That’s what hymns and their singers are like–some hymns are broiled swordfish, while others are fried catfish. And some people like one and not the other, while some people like both.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jen7]

I don’t enjoy modern music because I notice the lyrics are usually about the singers experience of God, not about God himself. Chant usually sings about God’s attributes to r quotes Scripture. I prefer that. Also it’s more subtle to it’s easier for me to focus on the Mass vs modern music where it sort of steals the show and becomes the focus. I think the music should be more subtle.

 

[27lw]

Well, I’m not saying that Haugen songs shouldn’t exist. People can listen to them all they want.
The question is, what should be presented at the liturgy?
Should that be determined by individual taste (@Peeps like this kind of song, @Tis_Bearself prefers this other type of music, etc) or should we present what the Church actually calls for, even in the documents of Vatican II?
Just because some individuals find a particular song or hymn particularly meaningful to them, doesn’t make it authentic liturgical music. Some devotional or P&W songs might be really nice or appealing to some folks, and that’s great, but that doesn’t mean they are supposed to be part of the corporate worship of Catholic Church.

 

[Peeps]

I think the music should be more subtle.

I have never been in a Mass where contemporary (20th Century or later) music “steals the show.”

The Lord Jesus is Present in the Blessed Sacrament (in the tabernacle, and then after the consecration)–HE is Front and Center, and the music is only done to honor and glorify Him.

And subtle–I personally don’t think that “subtle” music expresses the glory of the Lord God as well as something that is done with gusto and great joy. By “subtle,” I don’t mean “softly”–dynamic level depends on the music. But to me, “subtle” implies “in the background”, barely audible.

It doesn’t make sense that if the Mass (the OF) includes times for music (the Processional, the Offertory, etc.) that these pieces should be 'subtle." Would you also think that the presider’s homily should be “subtle.”

Of course, the music should not be “the center of attention”–music should draw our attention to the Lord Jesus Christ, and it should admonish us human beings to respond to Him in a positive way–give our hearts and souls to Him, commit ourselves to His service in a more determined way or for a specific task, recognize our unconfessed sin and abstain from Holy Communion until we have been reconciled in Confession, etc.

When people say that music should not be “human-centered,” I have a little problem with this–music can and SHOULD move hearts and challenge people to make a new and more serious commitment to the Lord Jesus and His Church. So yes, that means that music is appealing to the “people” rather than praising God. But…it’s not the MUSIC–it’s the Holy Spirit Who is using beautiful or lively or touching music/lyrics to reach and soften a hard heart and woo the listener into yielding their stubborn will to God.

It’s interesting that the Bible’s longest book is a “hymnal” or “songbook.”

I believe that God enjoys our musical praise when it is done with sincerity and humility, but also with joy and delight in the Lord, no matter WHAT the “style” of the music is or how technically brilliant the musicians are. An elderly lady volunteer cantor who sings the responses off-key and softly is just as pleasing to God as a well-trained schola that delivers a perfectly-pitched and sublimely-lovely chant.

 

[OraLabora]

…Gregorian chant…should be given pride of place in liturgical services. Other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations…

We need to understand that pride of place doesn’t mean every place every time. I know you get that Peeps, so this comment isn’t directed to you but rather in general.

It’s getting increasingly harder to assemble a competent schola in your average parish, especially rural parishes. For those, simple settings of the Ordinary are certainly within reach, but forget the complex melismatic chants of the propers and tougher settings of the Ordinary.

The Vatican did publish the Graduale Simplex not long after the OF came out, but it never really caught on. I have a copy and mostly used it to concoct my own Nocturnale for the LOTH as the Ordo Cantus Officii referred to a few antiphons in it. Otherwise I’ve never heard it used here and in Europe.

Honestly, between using the Simplex, or setting vernacular propers to simple chant melodies, I prefer the latter. It will reach more people and make it easier for them to participate. Unlike the Ordinary, the Propers change weekly, so the laity have little chance to master them in Latin. The vernacular would at least remove Latin pronunciation and accentuation issues.

Take my word for it, badly sung Gregorian chant sounds horrible. Simple plainchant melodies are however easier and won’t be so dissonant if sung off key or off time.

 

[27lw]

Peeps:

…Gregorian chant…should be given pride of place in liturgical services. Other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations…

We need to understand that pride of place doesn’t mean every place every time. I know you get that Peeps, so this comment isn’t directed to you but rather in general.

As I like to respond to you, I guess “pride of place” means “hardly ever”, or even “never”.
I think if we were to somehow see stats for what hymns / chants are used at liturgies across the USA, I think you might be surprised at how little chant there is. Ditto for polyphony.

You realize a lot of parishes have stuff more like this, than chant?
Music starts at :30.