R
rev_kevin
Guest
Show me where it says they had a priest present. Show me the evidence that there was a priest present in Romans 16:5 and 16:23.
Why do so many protestants not consider church attendance an important part of their faith?
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P
PRmerger
Guest
Since you can’t show me that *there were no priests present, *then we’re at an impasse, aren’t we, kev?
However, we do know Paul was there at one point. That’s one for our side.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Apostles knew their relationship to Jesus. When others would come in with their own understanding, they would reject them. But when Paul came, they recognized he was sent in Christ.
Now about priests presiding at the Mass. Recall that when Jesus came into the world, he was an infant. But when he began his ministry, He was an adult. He looked totally different. And the same for Christ’s bride. She looked different at Pentecost, the beginning of the Church, and later on when her institution was formed.
St. Justin the martyr was the first to explain the Mass to others. He was born in Flavia Neapolis in 100 AD, became a convert in 130 AD, and defended Christianity in Asia Minor and Rome. He was martyred in 165. So he was essentially born 60 years after Christ’s resurrection.
I was born a few years after WWII, and am over 60. So WWII isn’t very long ago. Same with Justin and the timeline between Him and the Lord.
'No one may share the eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.
We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ as our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.
The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through His Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.
continued
Now about priests presiding at the Mass. Recall that when Jesus came into the world, he was an infant. But when he began his ministry, He was an adult. He looked totally different. And the same for Christ’s bride. She looked different at Pentecost, the beginning of the Church, and later on when her institution was formed.
St. Justin the martyr was the first to explain the Mass to others. He was born in Flavia Neapolis in 100 AD, became a convert in 130 AD, and defended Christianity in Asia Minor and Rome. He was martyred in 165. So he was essentially born 60 years after Christ’s resurrection.
I was born a few years after WWII, and am over 60. So WWII isn’t very long ago. Same with Justin and the timeline between Him and the Lord.
'No one may share the eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.
We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ as our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.
The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through His Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.
continued
N
Nominefili
Guest
Where two or more gather, the Lord is there. Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, said so. I don’t know about you, but I think He’s probably a pretty reliable source of information.
That said, formal church attendance ought not be forsaken. It is in the context of the church that we recieve our dear Lord’s gifts; namely, the Word of God preached rightly and the Sacraments (Holy Baptism and the Lord’s Supper) administered according to Christ’s institution, for our benefit. Anyone who despises these gifts is no Christian.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Continuation of St. Justin, Martyr, 100 AD - 165.
'On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or in the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.
On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and give thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give their assent by saying, “Amen.” The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.
The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who are for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.
We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, teh day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration.’
I find the idea of tithing same as today, we should give, but only if we want and we decide the amount. Here they used the title, president instead of priest. The language and tone of St. Justin is the same as found in the Epistles, and the same tone and manner we hear from our own priests today.
'On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or in the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.
On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and give thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give their assent by saying, “Amen.” The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.
The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who are for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.
We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, teh day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration.’
I find the idea of tithing same as today, we should give, but only if we want and we decide the amount. Here they used the title, president instead of priest. The language and tone of St. Justin is the same as found in the Epistles, and the same tone and manner we hear from our own priests today.
N
Nominefili
Guest
That is beautiful.
I have read that before, but it is always wonderful to see. Thank you for sharing.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Thank you!
I think that worship focused on the Sacraments with the Word of God places us in a particular posture that is different from our Bible studies and praise. We tend to be as witnesses attending, anticipating, and affirming. Our Bible fellowship and praise calls on us to be more vocal and participatory that way.
Both are good. But it is like comparing apples to oranges…as the old saying goes.
I think that worship focused on the Sacraments with the Word of God places us in a particular posture that is different from our Bible studies and praise. We tend to be as witnesses attending, anticipating, and affirming. Our Bible fellowship and praise calls on us to be more vocal and participatory that way.
Both are good. But it is like comparing apples to oranges…as the old saying goes.
N
Nominefili
Guest
Our dear Lord works all things for the good of those who love Him.
R
rev_kevin
Guest
Like I said I give you the one time Paul can’t deny that oneSince you can’t show me that *there were no priests present, *then we’re at an impasse, aren’t we, kev?
However, we do know Paul was there at one point. That’s one for our side.
But I look like we are at a dead lock on the priest vs no priest.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Well, not exactly “dead lock”. The Catholics are ahead by one.Like I said I give you the one time Paul can’t deny that one
But I look like we are at a dead lock on the priest vs no priest.
Incidentally, if there were no priests available and the early Christians met, it would have been to celebrate an Agape Feast–a sharing of their faith journeys.
R
rev_kevin
Guest
Catholic 1 Baptist 0Well, not exactly “dead lock”. The Catholics are ahead by one.
Incidentally, if there were no priests available and the early Christians met, it would have been to celebrate an Agape Feast–a sharing of their faith journeys.
Well if they were celebrating an Agape Feast that would be another on for the Catholics.
Catholic 2 Baptist 0
P
PRmerger
Guest
kev, you rock!Catholic 1 Baptist 0
Well if they were celebrating an Agape Feast that would be another on for the Catholics.
Catholic 2 Baptist 0
I might just send you another friend-invite, since you ignored the last request I made!
R
rev_kevin
Guest
PR I have you on my friends list.kev, you rock!
I might just send you another friend-invite, since you ignored the last request I made!
P
PRmerger
Guest
Oh! My bad!PR I have you on my friends list.
Hello, then, friend!
I’m interested in your comments to one of the very earliest non-inspired Christian writers, that was referenced earlier by Kathleen Gee:
*And this food is called among us Eukaristia. Literally, thanksgiving…**of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, *and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. Source: St. Justin Martyr
A
ahollars
Guest
This is about Church attendance, regardless what the Church looks like on the surface. That’s another thread. A Church is only a Church when the Bishop has declared it one, and only a priest may approach the altar. Someone brought it up earlier about the difference between a Mass outside of Church and people who simply worship on their own believing that is sufficient.
What we offer to the Lord must be from among the best of what we have, and if we are fortunate to afford the best, then we must give the best, including the building of a home worthy of Our Lord. Fancy Churches exist because the money was there to build the place, or in the case of many older Catholic Churches, people donated their own time, treasure, and labor to build it. I can speak from that experience, and I’m sure you would do the same if you had the opportunity. If you think God is not pleased by this, then you must also believe that He is not offended by a building that just has the bare minimum needed for a Mass, while keeping the best of what we have for ourselves. God has already told us that this is, in fact, not true:
‘In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”’
~Genesis 4:3-7~
" 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, he is guilty. When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.
~Leviticus 4:27-31~
Now, what does Jewish Law have to do with Christians today? Well, take a look at how God planned it for us…
He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
~Isaiah 53:3-7~
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
~John 1:29-30~
“I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, **“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” **
~John 6:48-58~
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
~Luke 22:19-20~
This is not about worship. It is about sacrifice. They are not the same thing, and should never be treated as such. This is the Catholic understanding of the Mass. I hope that made sense.
B
blazerdave
Guest
Protestants don’t consider church attendance crucial because such noted leaders as Methodus, Canterburus, Presbuterus, and Protestus himself all declared it to be optional.
R
rev_kevin
Guest
Eucharistia is the greek word for Eucharist meaning thanksgiving. In the CC it is refered to the celebration of the Mass that is the Eucharistic liturgy.Oh! My bad!
Hello, then, friend!
I’m interested in your comments to one of the very earliest non-inspired Christian writers, that was referenced earlier by Kathleen Gee:
*And this food is called among us Eukaristia. Literally, thanksgiving…**of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, ***and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. Source: St. Justin Martyr
The first bold–One must be worthy. One must be in a state of grace. One must do a self examination of their life. One must make a decent confession. One must beleive in the transubstanation which means more than the real presence of Christ. That the bread and wine are turned into the body and blood of Christ but keeps the same appearance. Also one must not have anything to eat or drink 1 hour before receiving the Eucharist. One must believe that what is taught about the Eucharist is true.
The second bold–That the prayer said to change and bless the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ is a transmutation or transubstantiation which the Greek word is metousiosis that our spirit or soul are feed with or nourished by the sacrifice of Christ of our sins. So that we may become one with Christ, one in body and blood. And that the bread and wine are transformed to the body and blood of Christ.
We are not partaking in regular bread and wine but we are partaking in the body and blood of Christ which nourishes our soul. That the sacrific of Christ is for our salvation and that we should be baptized to wash away our sin.
S
SSTeacher
Guest
Absolutely. That’s biblical. All the Evangelicals I’ve ever known adhere to this teaching that you can just turn up when you feel like it (or not, as the case may be) so it must be.Protestants don’t consider church attendance crucial because such noted leaders as Methodus, Canterburus, Presbuterus, and Protestus himself all declared it to be optional.
Vaguely,
Mick
P
PRmerger
Guest
Isn’t that amazing that this an ancient text–written about 1 century after the death of the last apostle–of what the early Christians believed and how they worshipped at their homes/churches??
R
rev_kevin
Guest
Yes I know that the Catholic understanding is about the Sacrifice of Christ and thats all good and well. But thats not all Christ has done for us, he taught us how to live for others, to love others, to care for others, to tend to the needs of the poor, to cloth the naked, and so on. When we give our best it don’t mean material best it means our soul, what is in our heart, how we treat others. You can have the most beautiful church in the world but that means nothing to God.This is about Church attendance, regardless what the Church looks like on the surface. That’s another thread. A Church is only a Church when the Bishop has declared it one, and only a priest may approach the altar. Someone brought it up earlier about the difference between a Mass outside of Church and people who simply worship on their own believing that is sufficient.
What we offer to the Lord must be from among the best of what we have, and if we are fortunate to afford the best, then we must give the best, including the building of a home worthy of Our Lord. Fancy Churches exist because the money was there to build the place, or in the case of many older Catholic Churches, people donated their own time, treasure, and labor to build it. I can speak from that experience, and I’m sure you would do the same if you had the opportunity. If you think God is not pleased by this, then you must also believe that He is not offended by a building that just has the bare minimum needed for a Mass, while keeping the best of what we have for ourselves. God has already told us that this is, in fact, not true:
‘In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”’
~Genesis 4:3-7~
" 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, he is guilty. When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.
~Leviticus 4:27-31~
Now, what does Jewish Law have to do with Christians today? Well, take a look at how God planned it for us…
He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
~Isaiah 53:3-7~
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’
~John 1:29-30~
“I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, **“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” **
~John 6:48-58~
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
~Luke 22:19-20~
This is not about worship. It is about sacrifice. They are not the same thing, and should never be treated as such. This is the Catholic understanding of the Mass. I hope that made sense.
to be continued
- Status