Why do some Catholics repudiate our American values?

[do_justly_love_mercy]

I’m confused by the OP considering urbanization an American value.

And again. I have never asserted that urbanization is an American value. I listed what were clearly intended to be specifically American values, such as those articulated in the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution, followed by a list of historical phenomena that have been significant in the history of the United States. Clearly I did not mean to suggested that the Enlightenment was a uniquely American phenomenon, for example. I mentioned it because people who repudiate the explicitly American values articulated in our founding texts also frequently repudiate the value of the Enlightenment out of which our nation was founded.

As I also made clear, I am highlighting the American context because the people who most commonly repudiate the inherent values and concomitant historical development of the United States are themselves American. If there were any significant number of Scandinavian Catholics on the internet attacking Scandinavian constitutional monarchies, I should have placed an emphasis on that as well.

 

[Jesuslover]

Look at America today. Spiritually, it is in shambles. Sins that cry to heaven (abortion, sodomy) run rampant in our society. Religion has been totally excluded from public life. The number of Catholics is steadily declining. This movement is just a longing to bring back the old Church-centered social order, when kings like St. Louis IX used their power to defend Christendom instead of destroying it.

 

[Rau]

I honestly feel that the Vatican still thinks it is. They play nice with us because they have to, we’re loud and donate money. But they don’t like us much.

On what do you base that assessment?

Why might the Vatican take a different attitude toward the US versus another western country such as Canada or Australia?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Canada has been much more traditionally Catholic, at least in certain areas, although it’s falling off now.
The US by contrast didn’t welcome Catholics into most areas for about the first 100 years of its existence and actively persecuted them in many if not most places well into the 20th century. The KKK in many parts of US during its heyday in the first half of the 20th century was primarily an anti-Catholic organization.

I don’t know enough about Australia to speak to that and would rather leave it to the Australians. I would imagine at this point in time the Vatican is not in love with Australia’s legal maneuvres regarding the confessional seal.

 

[Xarto]

A “good” Catholic monarch only lasts as long as they live. You are not guaranteed that their offspring will be “good” but you are guaranteed that they will be in power. I’d rather have a democracy at least you can change them.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I never said otherwise. As I said in my comment above, this is a school of thought that I have encountered exclusively on the internet, not among Catholics I actually know.

I’ve noticed that the school of thought actually have some brick and mortar bases in the US like Tradition/ Family/ Property, Napa Institute, Legatus, Ave Maria University, Chiaroscuro Foundation (funded by Knights of Columbus). There’s a long list of these sorts of pretty uniquely American conglomerates that benefit from the Catholic name and tax status.

 

[ATraveller]

I have never asserted that urbanization is an American value.

Ok. It’s a bit easy to misunderstand when your OP was structured like this.

The values to which I refer would include, but not be limited to:

• The equality of all people
  […]

In addition to these values I would mention:
[…]

• Urbanization

---

There is a thread beginning with this post , for example, in which somebody articulates his disapproval of large cities.

In the context of that thread, I think many who live in rural regions are completely ignored by urbanites. Urbanites know little to nothing about what it’s like to live in rural places and urbanites tend to be condescending towards those who live in rural places.

In any event, large cities are problematic. They suck the life out of other places. They can be overcrowded, loud and even smelly. And living in such cities can be extremely expensive, which is driven by cramming so many people into a small area. They can be dreary concrete jungles with extremely ugly tall towers blighting skylines.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

@tafan2 I am fairly certain that I would be able to find posts on CAF illustrating each of my points. Here are just a selection of the kind of posts that I am talking about:

The United States described as a “Freemasonic Republic” (user is also a monarchist): https://forums.catholic-questions.org/t/would-you-support-a-ban-on-pornography/575009/163?u=do_justly_love_mercy

The same user states that religion should not be separated from the state, commending Russia as a good example: What else to do with such offensive Christmas cards - #34 by Elias

The same user praises the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs: Conquest Involving Nations - #12 by Elias

“…the system the Freemasonic Fathers left us. A system without God, and ergo without morals”: Elizabeth Warren Defends Redefinition of Marriage at CNN Town Hall Meeting - #18 by FrancisFan43

Church and state inseparable. Freedom of religion “Freemasonic”: U.S. Public Continues to Favor Legal Abortion, Oppose Overturning Roe v. Wade - #72 by CarmeliteKnight

The same user condemns Freemasonry and secularism again: What can we do about the shootings? - #495 by CarmeliteKnight

Anti-democratic. Against Church/state separation. Advocates “much more limited citizenry” and even fewer people having a say in government. Praises Franco and Pinochet: Nationality and ethnicity - #114

The same user supports slavery being legal: Woman Euthanized after Faking Autism Diagnosis - #20

Christendom destroyed by Protestantism, socialism, and liberalism. How can it be restored?: How to get Christendom back?

The decline of the Ottoman Empire is the will of God: Mary Saves Christendom--Again - #4 by Dan_Defender

Revisionist history of the Crusades: The Crusades: When Christendom Pushed Back

Louis IX of France recommends death for blasphemers: Challenge-Riposte, Sarcasm, and Anger in Jesus and the Saints? - #3 by sw85

A user evoking the Crusades compares Muslims to locusts: The Rape of Europe

The same user compares contemporary France with the France of Charles Martel and Louis IX: The Rape of Europe

And the Battle of Vienna: The Rape of Europe

A user from the American South wishes that we were ruled by a monarch like Louis IX: Legitimacy of the British monarch - #24 by Entwhistler

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

@tafan2

A few more:

An American user proposes a one-party Catholic quasi-monarchy: Monarchs? - #8 by Adeodatus

“If one is honest, and truly applies the Catholic faith into one’s thoughts in all aspects, one is brought to the monarchist form of government”: Catholic Monarchist Triumphalist Film - #17 by codefro

“Maybe a Crusade is exactly what we need. I mean these Muslims are going to far when they martyr our priests”: Would you join a Crusade? - #2 by Margarite

An American user longs for the revival of the papal tiara and the restoration of the Papal States: Would you like the old Papal crowning ceremony brought back? - #36 by Onegin

“Retake the Papal States. And crown a new emperor and topple the revolutionary governments of Europe and reinstate the rightful monarchs”: If Pope Benedict wore that Tiara - #13

“feudalism is pretty cool”: Watch "Dear Greta, Are Trees Worth More Than Babies?" on YouTube - #9

“Democracy is probably the worst governmental system imaginable. Give me men like Franco and Pinochet over the fickle mob any day ”: Separation of Church and State - do you support it? Why? - #50 by JanSobieskiIII

“…the leaders of the state should still be subordinate to the church. When a leader acts wrongly he should be condemned by the church until he repents and rights his wrongs”: Separation of Church and State - do you support it? Why? - #22 by JanSobieskiIII

“Democracy is a child of the enlightenment which is a child of Luther’s heresies.” Praises Franco and Pinochet again. Opposes representative government: Trump appointee Carl Higbie resigns due to racist, sexist, anti-Muslim, anti-LGBT comments - #47 by JanSobieskiIII

 

[phil19034]

A “good” Catholic monarch only lasts as long as they live. You are not guaranteed that their offspring will be “good” but you are guaranteed that they will be in power. I’d rather have a democracy at least you can change them.

No. The compromise is a republic. A real democracy is actually pretty horrible. It’s mob rule 24x7.

Note: the United States is a republic with democratic characteristics, but it is not a pure democracy.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

Is your point you find it odd people are putting their faith and church teaching over worldly ideologies? Because Americanism is a condemned heresy. Same as Arianism, or modalism, or any other.

I find it odd that a small number of Catholics consider the principles upon which the United States of America was founded to be incompatible with Catholicism. “Americanism” in the sense that you mean here refers to the Catholic Church in the United States toward the end of the nineteenth century. It does not refer to the principles of the Founding Fathers of the nation. It also seems somewhat disingenuous to suggest that the condemnation of Americanism is on the same footing as the condemnation of heresies dealing with the nature of Christ and the Trinity.

I am wholeheartedly condemning the whole list as being written in such a way as to present many of us as negatively as possibke, even to the extent of fabricating much of the list.

I don’t believe that I fabricated anything. I also did not intend to present anybody negatively. I was merely expressing my puzzlement at some of the opinions expressed. I believe I have furnished you above with ample examples of the views about which I am speaking.

 

[Emeraldlady]

@do_justly_love_mercy that is a brilliant brief of what I’ve observed/intuited as a highly focused force using the Catholic name to promote a ‘new ‘American’ Catholic way’. My suspicion/caution has been very gut level but you’ve produced outright intellectual evidence of a usurping agenda going on! Well done. Lets expose this where we can!!

 

[phil19034]

CorydonMundi:

Americanism is a heresy

I honestly feel that the Vatican still thinks it is. They play nice with us because they have to, we’re loud and donate money. But they don’t like us much.

Americanism still is a heresy, but it did have an influence during Vatican II.

The National Catholic Bishop’s conferences around the work were a result of Americanism. So was the synod of Bishops, instituted at Vatican II

The United States was the only nation to have a national conference until Vatican II. Paul VI based the conferences on the one the United States created in the 19th century.

I don’t the the Americanism heresy is a worry for European bishops. I think they are much more concerned about the evangelical protestant influence on American Catholics.

Personally, I think Americanism retuned during World War I & II and effected the whole Church.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Tis_Bearself:

CorydonMundi:

Americanism is a heresy

I honestly feel that the Vatican still thinks it is. They play nice with us because they have to, we’re loud and donate money. But they don’t like us much.

Americanism still is a heresy, but it did have an influence during Vatican II.

The National Catholic Bishop’s conferences around the work were a result of Americanism. So was the synod of Bishops, instituted at Vatican II

The United States was the only nation to have a national conference until Vatican II. Paul VI based the conferences on the one the United States created in the 19th century.

I don’t the the Americanism heresy is a worry for European bishops. I think they are much more concerned about the evangelical protestant influence on American Catholics.

Personally, I think Americanism retuned during World War I & II and effected the whole Church.

That doesn’t sound accurate. The American Bishops responded instantly to the Vatican’s warning against ‘Americanism’. Non Americans regard the American Bishops Council as an example of proper Catholic submission on that point. Americanism the heresy is very much fed by a lay Catholic movement.

The Catholic Bishops conferences around the world were the result of rejection of prioritising national principles over Catholic principles.

 

[Memo0]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...peace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

Chapter 8 and Chapter 9 should have the answers you’re looking for.
Hope this helps,
God bless.

 

[Peeps]

Can you? How long have Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Mitch McConnell etc been in power?

Not that long. I believe that Nancy Pelosi just re-gained her position in the 2018 elections, when the House went back to the Democrats.

Our Congress is turned over on a fairly regular schedule, as is the President–about every 4-8 years.

I don’t call that a long time.

HOWEVER–there are situations in which the same person has “ruled” for decades. In Illinois, Speaker of the House Michael Madigan has been in power for all but two years since 1983. His power is so great that when he was asked if he would ever consider running for President, he replied that he already had enough power.

And he absolutely rules and no one can get anything past him. Much of the financial turmoil and impending bankruptcy in Illinois can be laid at his feet. He controls the House Rules Committee, which in other states is controlled by a bipartisan group. Speaker Madigan makes the decision which bills will receive further study and consideration (in other states, a bipartisan committee makes these decisions), and this means that most bills never make it out of the Rules Committee. One of our local (Republican) Representatives has drafted over 200 bills about property tax reform (ours are among the highest in the nation), but not one of them has made it out of Rules Committee to receive further study and re-writes.

Speaker Madigan is quite eccentric and incredibly wealthy due to his law practice in Chicago–makes me ILL when Democrats criticize Pres. Trump for keeping his business, but don’t touch Speaker Madigan–but they know better. Speaker Madigan doesn’t like it when people oppose him,and if they dared say anything against him, even though they are in federal government and don’t come anywhere near Illinois, I think their career (and possibly more) would be ended if they criticized him.

 

[Salibi]

Religion has been totally excluded from public life. The number of Catholics is steadily declining. This movement is just a longing to bring back the old Church-centered social order, when kings like St. Louis IX used their power to defend Christendom instead of destroying it

Religion should be excluded from public life. You’re not living in medieval Europe. You’re living in a modern society where not everyone is Catholic.

It is utterly ridiculous that some think that their religion should be the law of the land, and that something’s amiss when it’s not.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Using the law to force non-believers to observe Catholic laws is not an act of “conversion.”

 

[Salibi]

Seeking to convert non-Catholics does not equal passing legislation that violates other people’s basic rights to freedom of religion and belief.

Converting non-Catholics is done through evangelization by good word and good action, not the passing of legislation that violates human rights. Otherwise, it become an immoral violation, not evangelization.

 

[Salibi]

If your religion is more important to you than the State’s Constitution then you should work in a church and stay out of public office.

Also, for pointers, if you’re incapable of discussing the topic intelligently and have to resort to silly retorts then it’s preferable that you let me know so that I don’t waste my time.