Why do some Catholics repudiate our American values?

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It depends on the people, don’t you think?
You stand the same chance of having a flawed sovereign as you do flawed anyone else. ( Flawed in the Christian sense).
I have always been troubled by right living being dictated frankly. It always seems that the dynamic is that one man, or a small group, represent the only real participants in Christian transformation via free will. The rest are coerced with little gained in transformation. They react to esteem and shame manipulation, like a pet.( In my darker thoughts, they seem to only have a spiritual existence vicariously through their sovereign. As if only the sovereign has need of Grace. They only require obedience…like my Dog)
 
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The middle class as a blip in human history. The most unnatural state of affairs. Unfortunately you might be right
 
The writing is on the wall.
30 years ago George Will wrote," that CONSERVATISM is defined by it’s opposition to the new deal." That opposition is a century old. It has grown in sophistication.
At the same time those whose family tree was only removed from the peasantry by a generation or two conformed to human nature and became oblivious to the delicate artificiality of their tenuous reality. Vanity is quite the blinding force. And the middle class house of cards you speak of is so easily manipulated by the shadow cast by vanity.
 
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Sometimes American values are Catholic values and sometimes they aren’t.

Catholic values (Gospel values) are what matter.
 
That’s nicely presented, but wrong on many counts.

It starts with God, Logos, Family, Church, King, Hierarchy. Certainly there were families, kings, and hierarchies before the ancient Greeks, but ancient Greek and Roman religion was almost entirely polytheistic and the Church of course was not founded until some five centuries after the Athenian Golden Age.

The transition from “Byzantium” to “Christendom” to “Monarchy” overlooks the significance of the Carolingian Empire and the development of western Christianity, which surely deserves a mention. I’m not sure why Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle are in the circle labelled “Monarchy”. The classical Athenian concept of monarchy (the philosopher king) does not really have anything to do with the form of monarchy that existed in medieval Europe. Symphonia is more a Byzantine/Eastern Orthodox idea than a western European one. Why is Patriarchy included? Surely Patriarchy continued until long after the Middle Ages. Likewise with “Fertility”. Was there a decline in fertility from the 14th century onward?

Surely there should be some link between “Humanism” and “Renaissance” and “Greece” and “Rome”. Humanism and the Renaissance were not a breach with the inheritance from classical antiquity but a rebirth of Greek and Roman civilization.

The big problem with this chronology is clearly the French Revolution. The French Revolution began in 1789. Most of the things in the “Liberalism” circle were causes (or precursors) of the French Revolution, not results of it. John Locke died in 1704, David Hume died in 1776, Jean-Jacques Rousseau died in 1778, and Adam Smith died in 1790. Thomas Jefferson was already advocating the principle of “personal liberty” as early as the 1760s. In the 1770s James Madison was advocating the principle of freedom of religion. George Washington was sworn in as President of the United States five days before the opening of the convention of the Estates General.

In the final circles, I don’t understand why Liberty, Tolerance, Freedom of Speech, and the Constitution are characterized as right wing, while Equality is characterized as left wing. For example, Richard Nixon, a Quaker, is regarded as one of our more right-wing presidents, but would also have believed strongly in the principle of equality. I also find it hard to take seriously anything that uses the offensive term “Trannies”. “Degeneracy” is also an essentially meaningless term in this context.
 
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Would it be controversial to say consumerism is an American value?
Because I think it is. And that’s not a good thing.
 
do_justly_love_mercy said:
That’s nicely presented, but wrong on many counts
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It is a good answer to the original question, why do some Catholics repudiate American values?

It does need to be filled out a little. It is odd to see Greece and Rome but not Israel. Slavery, feudalism, prostitution need to be added to the monarchy circle. The slangy language makes an interesting point, but I think a less manipulative way of expressing it could be found; maybe Latin in the monarchy circle, English or slang in the later circles? You could probably layer classic/romantic differences into the picture.

As it is, it shows the mindset that repudiates American values and where it came from. Harsh judgments seem to be part that ethos, which I never would have included in an answer. It is much closer to the “extremely negative” portrayal that someone accused you of having.
 
Yes, it certainly is a vivid illustration of this phenomenon. I’m still puzzled as to why anybody would want to hold up the High Middle Ages as seemingly the ideal period of history in which to live, but it does illustrate the point nicely.

The “Monarchy” circle could also include beheading, burning at the stake, hanging, drawing, and quartering, flogging, the pillory, torture, and birching schoolboys. For much of Europe, one could add persecuting Jews. Under “Liberalism” one could include understanding the circulatory system, discovering vaccination, anesthesia, and sanitation.
 
Because despite its flaws, it was the only period in all of human history in which the state upheld God’s laws rather than tearing them down. There was a veritable Christian identity infused in every level of society. Society and the Church were recognized as one and the same. That’s why something like legalized abortion was unthinkable during that period. It was seen as the responsibility of the government to conform its laws to the teachings of the Church. For if a law runs contrary to the natural law ordained by God, then it is no law. But because of the separation of church and state, it became possible for the government to enact laws that suppress the church. For the only way to ensure that a government will uphold the moral law of the Church is if these two institutions are as closely intertwined as they were during the Middle Ages.
 
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There were herbs used to "restore a woman’s monthly flow " in the middle ages. Surgical abortion was not done because in most cases it would have killed both mother snd child. Believe me I do not think anyone should have an abortion but lets stick to facts .
 
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That is true and undoubtedly other crimes such as prostitution and murder happened back then too. My point is that back then, it was frowned upon and done underground, whereas today women are told to celebrate and be proud of their abortions.
 
It’s probably not the only example. I’d suggest Poland under Lech Wałęsa and even Aleksander Kwaśniewski (although he is personally an atheist) and Ireland during the de facto reign of John Charles McQuaid (a period marred by many abuses of the Church’s power).
 
do_justly_love_mercy said:
  • Establishment of the Catholic Church as the state church of all Christendom
  • Alignment between Church doctrine and the civil law
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I think these two goals are not realistic in the United States. The Catholic Church is a minority religion. If there were to be any kind of alignment between church doctrine and civil law it will be between a Protestant doctrine and the civil law. While there might be something to be said in favor of such an arrangement just remember, we would be ruled by a hostile government that doesn’t respect our sensibilities.
 
It would do wonders for your soul to read up on Pope Leo XIII and his writings on Americanism


Also
do_justly_love_mercy said:
Suppression of Freemasonry
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implying that is a bad thing
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Freemasons are nothing but evil. They literally don’t see Jesus as God and are responsible for the mass killings of the French Revolution (on top of a plethora of other things that will only derail this thread). Suppressing the Freemasons would be a net positive in the world today

http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-x...nts/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus.html
 
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FrancisFan43 said:
Freemasons are nothing but evil.
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That clearly is a ridiculous assertion. I know people who are Freemasons. They are perfectly nice people. Their reasons for joining Freemasonry seem to include: (1) it’s somewhere to make new friends, (2) they enjoy dressing up, (3) the Freemasons raise a lot of money for charity, (4) they were somewhat curious about the belief system, the rituals, and the secrets.
FrancisFan43 said:
They literally don’t see Jesus as God
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There are Christians (mostly Protestants) who are Freemasons.
FrancisFan43 said:
and are responsible for the mass killings of the French Revolution
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That was a very long time ago. I don’t think that any of the Freemasons I have met are involved in mass killings.
FrancisFan43 said:
Suppressing the Freemasons would be a net positive in the world today
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I really doubt it would make any difference. From what I’ve seen they are just a bunch of guys who like to dress up, perform their rituals, and have a nice dinner with their friends, and they also give money to charitable purposes. Their beliefs may not be entirely consistent with Christianity, but not everything that is inconsistent with Christianity should be suppressed.
 
Or joined, as they joined other fraternal/business associations, in particular, after WWII. Masons, American Legion, Civitan Club, Forty and Eight, for one particular example I knew well. Who taught adult Sunday School at the Baptist church for 25 years.
 
That’s up to voters. Easier to change them than a monarchy, unless you have a guillotine handy?
 
Consumerism that derives from capitalism is an American value. And it spawns secularism and a great many things inconsistent with the faith. That’s the truth so of course it’s ok. Can’t fix if you don’t honestly recognise.
Fact is it is very tricky when American values differ with Catholic values.
We are influenced by community, Protestantism( which is not always congruent with CATHOLOCISM) and secular practices get confused with Catholic ones.
 
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