Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

John 20:23 Jesus gives his APOSTLES the power to forgive sin. Do you believe that Jesus Christ has the power to forgive sin? If you do how can you reject the power he passed on to his Apostles who can also forgive sin in his Fathers name then?

Richard you either believe that Jesus had the power or you do not, and if you believe he indeed believe that he has the power then you must believe his words.

Why did he say to his Apostles What my Father has Given ME I NOW GIVE TO YOU? Do you not accept these words either?

In Jn. 20:23 Jesus is not giving His disciples the power to forgive sins. At least not in the way you think. What He is doing is refering back to an instruction He gave them before recounted in Matt. 18 below.
Matt.18:
12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

My commentry expounds on Jn.20:23

Commentary on Jn.20:23
23. Whose soever sins.
Jesus here speaks to the disciples as representatives of His church on earth, to which, acting in its corporate capacity, He has entrusted the responsibility of caring for the spiritual interests and needs of its individual members. Jesus had already explained to them at length how to deal with erring members, first personally (see on Matt. 18:1-15, 21–35), and then with the authority of the church (see on vs. 16–20). Now He reiterates the counsel given upon that former occasion.
The church is to work faithfully for the restoration of its erring members, encouraging them to repent and turn from their evil ways. When there is evidence that things have been made right with God and man, the church is to accept the repentance as genuine, to release the erring one from the charges brought against him (to “remit” his “sins”), and to receive him back into full fellowship. Such a remitting of sins is ratified in heaven; in fact, God has already accepted and pardoned the repentant one (see on Luke 15:1–7). The Scriptures explicitly teach, however, that confession of sin and repentance for it are to be made directly to the throne of grace in heaven (see Acts 20:21; 1 John 1:9), and that the release of the soul from sin comes only through the merits of Christ and His personal mediation (1 John 2:1). This prerogative God has never delegated to erring mortals, themselves so often in need of divine mercy and grace, even though they be the appointed leaders of the church.

Perhaps you can help me out rinnie. You said “Why did he say to his Apostles What my Father has Given ME I NOW GIVE TO YOU? Do you not accept these words either?”
Could you tell me where in the bible Jesus says this?

 

[dianaiad]

I agree that is why I cannot understand it. There is only ONE truth not many!

Indeed. In fact, that’s the question that sent Joseph Smith into that grove when he was all of fourteen.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes Huh? I say that alot to you don’t I Richard.

No just the one time.

Sorry because its not the scripture you quote its how you interpret it that boggles my mind.

I don’t believe that I am interpreting. Merely pointing out what scripture is clearly saying.

Okay lets listen to what you are saying. You are saying to be baptised we must be of age to accept God right?

Right.

Even though the word of God rather in SS or ST says no such thing.

Idon’t know what SS and ST means.

But lets say I agree with you. I still do not see the difference between being circumcised in the O.T or in the N.T.If you agreed with me you would see the difference.

Why, would agreeing with you give me some special insight?

Do they not both have the same purpose? Yes or No?

Yes and No. When you restict my answer it makes dialoge impossible.

Second of all God chooses everyone. Yes the Jews were the chosen people. But the Jews did not accept Jesus Christ. Well many of them. But yes many of the Jews did indeed accept Jesus.

Ok, let’s examine this a little closer. Who chose the Jews to be “The Chosen People”. Of coarse it was God. Now, this was a commandment of God. God tells Abram that through him all nations will be blessed.Gen 12. This of coarse is a reference to His plan of salvation. Manifest in Jesus Christ. This was God’s decision. There is no faith involved on the part of the people and God in order to identify His chosen people COMMANDS that they be cicumcised.
Ok, fast forward to Jesus time
Jn.3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What Jesus is saying here is that a man an adult of the human race (mankind)must choose to be born again so that he can enter the Kingdom. So, just as circumcision is an outward sign of **God’s choice **of His people.
Gen.17
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Baptism becomes the outward sign of **our choice **to be one of God’s people.
This choice is a matter of faith and cannot be entered into by an infant.

But rather a child is baptised or cir. they still must learn the word of God and accept Christ in their heart and obey his commandments. IT is the same in the O.T and the N.T.

Since baptism is an outward sign of our faith choice infants cannot be baptised.

You say that circ is an outward sign so is Baptism!! What is the dfference.

I’ve explained this.

In the O.T they circ. themself outward in Baptism we circ. ourself to CHrist heart but its also an outward sign.

I don’t know of any instance where a person circumcised themselves. Ouch!!! But you are right they are both outward signs. The difference lies in who does the choosing.

So again your whole theory here makes no sense to me.

So we dialogue on.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Back to Col 2;11-12 Paul notes that circ. was REPLACED by Baptism. He is just explaining that WE as gentiles do not have to be CIr. that it is replaced by baptism.

Paul says BAPTISM is the circ.made WITHOUT hands. That is what Paul is trying to explain to them.

Col.2:11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Notice we “are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God”
Babies are not capable of fath.

What you are saying does not make sense to me.

So, we dialogue on.

Please show me ONE exampe in the N.T that shows an example of a child raised in a Christian home who are baptised only upon makeing a decision for Christ. Just ONE. Please can you do that for me.

You can’t because it is not in there. If so show me.

I’m not going to get into irrelavent hypothetial scenarios. It’s a waste of time. However I think the one we should be emulating is Jesus.
Matt.3:13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

It is ALWAYS ASSUMEd that the children of Christian homes are already Christians that have been baptised in the faith.

Assumed by people who are laboring under the same misapprehension as yourself.

Romans 6:3 If infants were only admitted to the Church after the age of reason it would be written, there are no such records.

Jn.3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

It surprises me that you would use Rom. 6:3 Let’s look at a little more of it.

**Romans 6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Babies are pretty new already and I have yet to see one walk in newness of life or any other way.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

It says “our old man is crucified with him”. Babies do not have old men of sin that need to be crucified with Him.**

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Please disreguard my last post. I read this wrong. Bu still want to debate on this. Because it still goes back to the same thing.

That is not what you said before. You said there is no Infallible teacher but Jesus Christ. Now I see you are changing your tune. I am thankful for that.

I am in no way changing my tune as you put it. What I said before was “Paul and all the writers of the bible Were ifallible only insofar as they preached the word of God.” In this post I say "So, it is Christ working through His Spirit that makes a man infaallible. Without that we have “sin that dwelleth in me.” I suppose you picked up on “makes a man infaallible.” and forgot about the rest of the post. But what I am saying is the same. That unless we are “20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” Matt.28:20 we have "“sin that dwelleth in me.” Gal.1:17

I know that the Pope and bishops in communion with him are infalliable teachers. that is why I am Catholic. He has a promise given to him which I quoted to you that when he speaks to under the power of the Holy Spirit it is not his words but the words of God pouring out of him.

The pope is not infallible. What promise are you talking about?

That is why no teaching giving under the Power of the Holy Spirit when the Pope or Bishops have spoken with this gift can or have ever been wrong. This is a gift they were promised by God. IT is indeed written in the bible which I showed you. That is why I cannot accept your teachings.

So the doctrine that Pius X11 came out with that Mary was assumed into heaven is infallible Right? In light of what Paul says in Gal. 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Could you please show me where Paul teaches this doctrine? If you can’t and I’m pretty sure that Paul does not teach this, then according to Paul Pius X11 would be accursed and of coarse very fallible.

I asked you before Richard maybe you forgot. What is the foundation upon which all Christain truth can rest? You either refused to answer or do not know. See if you can find that answer for me in scripture. Its in there

Matt.16:13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luke 6:47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

1Cor10:2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

All truth lies in Jesus.

Jn.14:6 I am the way the truth, and the life no man comes to the Father but by me?

 

[Esdra]

Hi Richard, hi rinnie,

I am not the administrator of this webiste, but could you please, especially Richard, not citate the whole bible? People have found something very pracitacal that is called Booknames, Chapters and Verses!

I think everyone knows at least one online bible server. Fo those who don’t, I have a nice one here: www.bibleserver.com.

² Rinnie - You haven’t answered my last two threads yet!

Greetings,
Esdra

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard, hi rinnie,

I am not the administrator of this webiste, but could you please, especially Richard, not citate the whole bible? People have found something very pracitacal that is called Booknames, Chapters and Verses!

Greetings,
Esdra

Why would it bother you that I quote the bible?

 

[Esdra]

Why would it bother you that I quote the bible?

Mhm - Sorry, didn’t want to offend you…

Well, I just think the thread gets too long and people will leave it and don’t answer the Thread starter anymore…

And, be honest, wouldn’ it be more handy just to write the verses? I am sure rinnie will find the verses and will read it, or not.

Which denomination of Protestant are you? I have read some of your posts here and they sound very reasonable. I wish I would know the Holy Bible as well as you do…
Well, I think I should really attend a bible-school once!

Best wishes,
Esdra

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

No just the one time.

I don’t believe that I am interpreting. Merely pointing out what scripture is clearly saying.

Right.

[SIGN]Idon’t know what SS and ST means[/SIGN].

Why, would agreeing with you give me some special insight?

Yes and No. When you restict my answer it makes dialoge impossible.

Ok, let’s examine this a little closer. Who chose the Jews to be “The Chosen People”. Of coarse it was God. Now, this was a commandment of God. God tells Abram that through him all nations will be blessed.Gen 12. This of coarse is a reference to His plan of salvation. Manifest in Jesus Christ. This was God’s decision. There is no faith involved on the part of the people and God in order to identify His chosen people COMMANDS that they be cicumcised.
Ok, fast forward to Jesus time
Jn.3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What Jesus is saying here is that a man an adult of the human race (mankind)must choose to be born again so that he can enter the Kingdom. So, just as circumcision is an outward sign of **God’s choice **of His people.
Gen.17
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Baptism becomes the outward sign of **our choice **to be one of God’s people.
This choice is a matter of faith and cannot be entered into by an infant.

Since baptism is an outward sign of our faith choice infants cannot be baptised.

I’ve explained this.

I don’t know of any instance where a person circumcised themselves. Ouch!!! But you are right they are both outward signs. The difference lies in who does the choosing.

So we dialogue on.

Oh My SS= Sacred Scripture. ST= Sacred Tradition:shrug:

 

[dianaiad]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Oh My SS= Sacred Scripture. ST= Sacred Tradition:shrug:

hey.

Be nice. I’m really glad that Rinnie, a Catholic, asked you this question because I, a Mormon, had no clue what you were referring to either. I admire him/her for being courageous enough to ask. Not everybody gets the initials!

Diana

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

In Jn. 20:23 [SIGN]Jesus is not giving His disciples the power to forgive sins. At least not in the way you think. [/SIGN] What He is doing is refering back to an instruction He gave them before recounted in Matt. 18 below.
Matt.18:
12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

My commentry expounds on Jn.20:23

Commentary on Jn.20:23
23. Whose soever sins.
Jesus here speaks to the disciples as representatives of His church on earth, to which, acting in its corporate capacity, He has entrusted the responsibility of caring for the spiritual interests and needs of its individual members. Jesus had already explained to them at length how to deal with erring members, first personally (see on Matt. 18:1-15, 21–35), and then with the authority of the church (see on vs. 16–20). Now He reiterates the counsel given upon that former occasion.
The church is to work faithfully for the restoration of its erring members, encouraging them to repent and turn from their evil ways. When there is evidence that things have been made right with God and man, the church is to accept the repentance as genuine, to release the erring one from the charges brought against him (to “remit” his “sins”), and to receive him back into full fellowship. Such a remitting of sins is ratified in heaven; in fact, God has already accepted and pardoned the repentant one (see on Luke 15:1–7). The Scriptures explicitly teach, however, that confession of sin and repentance for it are to be made directly to the throne of grace in heaven (see Acts 20:21; 1 John 1:9), and that the release of the soul from sin comes only through the merits of Christ and His personal mediation (1 John 2:1). This prerogative God has never delegated to erring mortals, themselves so often in need of divine mercy and grace, even though they be the appointed leaders of the church.

Perhaps you can help me out rinnie. You said “Why did he say to his Apostles What my Father has Given ME I NOW GIVE TO YOU? Do you not accept these words either?”
Could you tell me where in the bible Jesus says this?

Sure here is the scripture you asked for. God sent Jesus to forgive sins but after his resurrection Jesus told his Apostles John 20:21-23 As the Father sent me so I send YOU. And when he …Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained. I am sure Richard you also deny this scripture as well. Or will again twist it around (but don’t know how you can But you will find a way I am sure)

What part of whose sin YOU forgive are forgiven and whose sins YOU retain are retained do you reject? By you previous words the whole thing.

 

[rinnie]

I am in no way changing my tune as you put it. What I said before was “Paul and all the writers of the bible Were ifallible only insofar as they preached the word of God.” In this post I say "So, it is Christ working through His Spirit that makes a man infaallible. Without that we have “sin that dwelleth in me.” I suppose you picked up on “makes a man infaallible.” and forgot about the rest of the post. But what I am saying is the same. That unless we are “20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” Matt.28:20 we have "“sin that dwelleth in me.” Gal.1:17

The pope is not infallible. What promise are you talking about?

So the doctrine that Pius X11 came out with that Mary was assumed into heaven is infallible Right? In light of what Paul says in Gal. 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Could you please show me where Paul teaches this doctrine? If you can’t and I’m pretty sure that Paul does not teach this, then according to Paul Pius X11 would be accursed and of coarse very fallible.

Matt.16:13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luke 6:47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

1Cor10:2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

All truth lies in Jesus.

Jn.14:6 I am the way the truth, and the life no man comes to the Father but by me?

No Richard as usual you are not giving me the accurate scripture for what I asked you. I knew you would not. OR possible could not but here it is.

I asked you what is the Pillar and gound of all truth. You or course were out in left field as usual. Here it is Richard. The scripture I was looking for.

1 Tim:15 But If I should be delayed you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH!

 

[rinnie]

Okay Richard let me ask you this you deny that the Pope who is a successor of the Apostles and does not preach the infallible word of God. Even though History can prove it.

Well then forgive me Richard for accepting the word of God.

We believe in Tradition that says that the teaching of Christ is passed on to the Apostles and from the Apostles to theirs successors and Bishops. Now lets say we are right Richard, Flatter me here for a moment. We as Catholic believe ST is indeed the Aposltes teaching Acts 2:42 and we believe it is indeed the word of God which the people heard from God 1 Thes 2:13 and it is indeed traditions which Paul COMMANDED them to stand firm in whether by MOUTH or by LETTER!

Now tell me Richard, you deny that the Pope is a direct successor of Peter. Now once again History proves you wrong but of course that does not matter to you.

Now Richard what is a person to do. Listen to Paul or you? Where in the SS or ST does it say to listen to you and reject the teaching of one of Gods Apostles. Do you see the problem we have here Richard.

Actually Richard scripture says NOT to listen to ANYONE who twists the word of GOD. See why we have a problem here Richard. Once again you feel you have the infallible teachings of the word of God but reject the teachings of the RCC which is indeed the Pillar of all truth.

Now History proves that the Pope is a direct successor of Peter. What now Richard?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

]
I am in no way changing my tune as you put it. What [/SIGN]I said before was “Paul and all the writers of the bible Were ifallible only insofar as they preached the word of God.” In this post I say "So, it is Christ working through His Spirit that makes a man infaallible. Without that we have “sin that dwelleth in me.” I suppose you picked up on “makes a man infaallible.” and forgot about the rest of the post. But what I am saying is the same. That unless we are “20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” Matt.28:20 we have "“sin that dwelleth in me.” Gal.1:17

The pope is not infallible. What promise are you talking about?

So the doctrine that Pius X11 came out with that Mary was assumed into heaven is infallible Right? In light of what Paul says in Gal. 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Could you please show me where Paul teaches this doctrine? If you can’t and I’m pretty sure that Paul does not teach this, then according to Paul Pius X11 would be accursed and of coarse very fallible.

Matt.16:13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luke 6:47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

1Cor10:2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

All truth lies in Jesus.

Jn.14:6 I am the way the truth, and the life no man comes to the Father but by me?

Sure you are You said Jesus Christ is the only infallible teacher. I showed you that Jesus appointed the Apostles and thier successors as infallible teaches also. Which you seem again to deny because you claim that his successors are not infallible when they teach with the Power of the Holy Spirit given to them by God. You were quite clear in stating that the Pope is not infallible when teaching with the Power of the HS that was given to him by succession.

 

[rinnie]

And you darn right the Pope was infallible when he taught that the Blessed Mother was taken straight to heaven. Wanna see the scripture that states we are to believe our leader of the Church. I won’t dare ask you for it because I saw your work

Just want to save you some time there Richard Buddy. But here it is.

The bible tells us to listen to the leaders of the Church

1 John 4:6 We belong to God and anyone who knows God listens to US while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

So do I believe the words of the Pope who is a successor of Peter!!! You darn right I do!!!

Tell me Richard just wonderring. Why does it shock you so bad that God took up the Mother of Jesus Christ body and soul? A women who gave up not only her life for God but her only Son:shrug:

Do you not think it was possible for God to do this? What really is your problem with it??

She is the Mother of the RCC and we love her so so much. She is our very own perfect and Blessed Mother. Shes is quite awesome I must say. Quite a role model for any women!!

 

[rinnie]

Actually that’s the point. This is what protestantism is about!
But, Richard, rinnie, be honest: is it really so important WHEN you are baptised that one can debate over hours? Most important is THAT you are baptised. Okay true, there is a difference in the importance for once soul life between RCC and Protestants concerning baptism…

I really think that the Catholic Church and much more the Orthodox Church has taken over a lot of rituals and other things concerning priesthood from the O.T.

I think that is not so good. In my opinion (and also in the opinion of most protestant churches) the N.T. is much more important. We should follow Christ’s teachings and those of the Apostles, not those of the Pharisees and so on.

Okay, i guess i am writing a lot of ******** now, it is very late (23.51!) and i want to go to bed now.

So, sorry for this maybe seneseless post.

Gn8 everyone!
Esdra

Esdra is it important when you are baptised. Yes. I would say as soon as possible. The sooner the better.

I also do not agree with you that the O.T. is not important. ALL of the word of God is very important. How could you possible begin to understand the N.T. without understanding the O.T.

One quick example My God My God why have you forsaken me!! Who was Jesus taking to Esdra and why?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Oh My SS= Sacred Scripture. ST= Sacred Tradition:shrug:

Out of this post the only thing you choose to comment on is SS & ST How about this

Ok, let’s examine this a little closer. Who chose the Jews to be “The Chosen People”. Of coarse it was God. Now, this was a commandment of God. God tells Abram that through him all nations will be blessed.Gen 12. This of coarse is a reference to His plan of salvation. Manifest in Jesus Christ. This was God’s decision. There is no faith involved on the part of the people and God in order to identify His chosen people COMMANDS that they be cicumcised.
Ok, fast forward to Jesus time
Jn.3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What Jesus is saying here is that a man an adult of the human race (mankind)must choose to be born again so that he can enter the Kingdom. So, just as circumcision is an outward sign of God’s choice of His people.
Gen.17
10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Baptism becomes the outward sign of our choice to be one of God’s people.
This choice is a matter of faith and cannot be entered into by an infant.

I really don’t see much point in continuing if you are not going to read my posts and comment on at least the pertinant points concerning the OP. I think that I have been quite thorough in answering your posts, while you apparantly are not even reading all of mine. I mean. What’s the point.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Mhm - Sorry, didn’t want to offend you…

You didn’t offend me. Just curious.

Well, I just think the thread gets too long and people will leave it and don’t answer the Thread starter anymore…

Why would they do that if my posts are long. I mean they don’t have to read them. Altho I hope they do.

And, be honest, wouldn’ it be more handy just to write the verses? I am sure rinnie will find the verses and will read it, or not.

Oh, I suppose it would. But the only source of truth that I use. In my opinion the only source of truth there is is the bible and I like to expose both myself and the people that read this thread to the profound truths contained therein.

Which denomination of Protestant are you?

I am Seventh Day Adventist.

I have read some of your posts here and they sound very reasonable. I wish I would know the Holy Bible as well as you do…
Well, I think I should really attend a bible-school once!

Best wishes,
Esdra

IMO you can’t study the bible enough.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Sure here is the scripture you asked for. God sent Jesus to forgive sins but after his resurrection Jesus told his Apostles John 20:21-23 As the Father sent me so I send YOU. And when he …Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained. I am sure Richard you also deny this scripture as well. Or will again twist it around (but don’t know how you can But you will find a way I am sure)

What part of whose sin YOU forgive are forgiven and whose sins YOU retain are retained do you reject? By you previous words the whole thing.

Well, again apparently you didn’t read the entire post.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

No Richard as usual you are not giving me the accurate scripture for what I asked you. I knew you would not. OR possible could not but here it is.

I asked you what is the Pillar and gound of all truth. You or course were out in left field as usual. Here it is Richard. The scripture I was looking for.

1 Tim:15 But If I should be delayed you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH!

I asked you before Richard maybe you forgot. What is the foundation upon which all Christain truth can rest? You either refused to answer or do not know. See if you can find that answer for me in scripture. Its in there

Here is your question. You did not ask me what "the Pillar and gound of all truth."is. You asked “What is the foundation upon which all Christain truth can rest?” The bible vs. I gave quite adequately answer this question. As for the pillar and foundation of truth question, I answered that many posts back. Just shows you’re not reading my posts. I am sensing a note of hostility in your posts. I don’t know why. Am I wrong?