Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[PRmerger]

There is no “essentials” to salvation ALL scripture is good for exortation and rebuke (2 Tim 3:16-17)…

Then you disagree with not a few Protestant posters on this forum.

Jesus says specifically “repent and believe the Gospel”. However, the abililty to repent and believe comes from God. Fundimentally what we are to do is repent and believe.

That is contrary to Scripture, dyluck. How can you pick one verse out of Scripture’s entirety and claim, “This is the essential verse”?

(And paradoxically claim above that there are no essentials. That’s quite peculiar!)

Should it include anything else?

Oh, absolutely it should include “anything else”!!

Read below to see what the “anything else” says:

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By believing and being baptized (Mk 16:16)

By repentance (Lk 13:3; Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

By eating his flesh (John 6)

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

The Answer:

These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness." From raeshomepage.bravehost.com/Master.html

 

[dyluck]

Of course there’s no verse with those words or implications.

You have no verse that say the CC it the only real voice of God.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

I just wanted to add a couple other ones:

1 Cor 2:12-14 "12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14:26 “The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

John 16:13 “When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

 

[PRmerger]

I just wanted to add a couple other ones:

1 Cor 2:12-14 "12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14:26 “The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

John 16:13 “When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

So here’s the thing, dyluck…as I read these 3 verses I am confused as to what your pointing out.

Clearly, one cannot simply read Scripture verses in isolation, yes? One needs context, and,. I daresay, an interpreter.

 

[dyluck]

Then you disagree with not a few Protestant posters on this forum.

Perhaps I was unclear. There is nothing essential that YOU as a person can do to secure your own salvation. The other “essentials” should just fall into place with a new nature.

That is contrary to Scripture, dyluck. How can you pick one verse out of Scripture’s entirety and claim, “This is the essential verse”?
(And paradoxically claim above that there are no essentials. That’s quite peculiar!)

I thought I explained it when I said that repenting and believing can only be given through God. That Repenting and Believing is what Jesus said to us to do.

Mark 1:15
14After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15"The time has come," he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Acts 16:30-31

Now read this carefully:

Matt 21:31-32
31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Now as far as “essentials” as you define it. Lets see what the bible says are the essentails or the “foundation” as how I interperet everyone’s understanding of essentails.

Hebrews 6:1 "1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the **foundation of repentance **from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so. "

Oh, absolutely it should include “anything else”!!

Read below to see what the “anything else” says:

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By believing and being baptized (Mk 16:16)

By repentance (Lk 13:3; Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

By eating his flesh (John 6)

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

Yes, all “essentials” in which you are completely incapable of doing for any good toward God as fithly rags unless it is 100% driven by God for God.
Moreover, you cannot do none of this without Him. If your nature hasn’t changed how can you please God?
If they were assentials aside from the work of God then you would surely have works you can boast about no?

 

[PRmerger]

Perhaps I was unclear. There is nothing essential that YOU as a person can do to secure your own salvation. The other “essentials” should just fall into place with a new nature.

I thought I explained it when I said that repenting and believing can only be given through God. That Repenting and Believing is what Jesus said to us to do.

Mark 1:15
14After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15"The time has come," he said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Acts 16:30-31

Now read this carefully:

Matt 21:31-32
31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Now as far as “essentials” as you define it. Lets see what the bible says are the essentails or the “foundation” as how I interperet everyone’s understanding of essentails.

Hebrews 6:1 "1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the **foundation of repentance **from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so. "

Yes, all “essentials” in which you are completely incapable of doing for any good toward God as fithly rags unless it is 100% driven by God for God.
Moreover, you cannot do none of this without Him. If your nature hasn’t changed how can you please God?
If they were assentials aside from the work of God then you would surely have works you can boast about no?

I am quite confused now, dyluck, with what your point is.

Let’s not talk doctrine first.

Let’s start with whether you believe that the Scriptures tell us what’s an essential doctrine and what’s not?

 

[Dokimas]

I just wanted to add a couple other ones:

1 Cor 2:12-14 "12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14:26 “The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

John 16:13 “When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.”

There good ones supporting my point. Thank you.

 

[Dokimas]

So here’s the thing, dyluck…as I read these 3 verses I am confused as to what your pointing out.

Clearly, one cannot simply read Scripture verses in isolation, yes? One needs context, and,. I daresay, an interpreter.

The truth be known we all pull out verses to make our point. Remember the two verse you pulled out to make your ‘until’ point?

 

[Dokimas]

I am quite confused now, dyluck, with what your point is.

Let’s not talk doctrine first.

Let’s start with whether you believe that the Scriptures tell us what’s an essential doctrine and what’s not?

You gave us a list, didn’t you?

 

[c_martyr]

Oh, cm, I am very, very open to using a different figure. Heck, I’ll use 400 if you’ll cite a reputable source that says it’s 400.

YOU give me the number of Protestant denominations that you think actually exist–and provide me with the source from whence this statistic came–and I’ll consider using it.

Until then, I’ll use the number 40.000 until you tell me what number I should use (and, of course, give the source! )

First, it needs to be understood what constitutes a Protestant. Then from there, maybe you can figure out how many denomonations consists within Prostestantism.

This kind of research is not my interest nor my responsibility. Rather this is your responsibility, and would be to your advantage, seeing how your whole apologetic argumentation seems to depend upon the number of our denominations.

 

[PRmerger]

First, it needs to be understood what constitutes a Protestant. Then from there, maybe you can figure out how many denomonations consists within Prostestantism.

This kind of research is not my interest nor my responsibility. Rather this is your responsibility, and would be to your advantage, seeing how your whole apologetic argumentation seems to depend upon the number of our denominations.

If you can’t cite a source that says how many Protestant denominations are in existence, then I’ll continue to use my statistic of 40,000.

Again, I am very willing to consider another number, as long as you provide me with the source from whence this statistic came.

Now, let’s get on with this discussion, cm.

Where in Scripture does it state that all Christian rituals/practices must be found in Scripture? Chapter and verse, please.

 

[PRmerger]

What I don’t understand is, although catholics don’t have defined definitions or seperation in offical denomination, many catholics that I am friends and have spoken to believe sometimes very drastic different things from one another on the same subjects. So, although Catholics claim to one Church belief, they are seperate from parish to parish.

There are no differences in Church beliefs (i.e. doctrines) from “parish to parish”, dyluck.

If a Catholic chooses to practice differently than what the CC has taught, that is his error in orthopraxy–the teaching (or orthodoxy) of the Church, however, is without error.

 

[Dokimas]

There are no differences in Church beliefs (i.e. doctrines) from “parish to parish”, dyluck.

If a Catholic chooses to practice differently than what the CC has taught, that is his error in orthopraxy–the teaching (or orthodoxy) of the Church, however, is without error.

Which is in error: charismatic catholics or traditional catholics?

 

[c_martyr]

If you can’t cite a source that says how many Protestant denominations are in existence, then I’ll continue to use my statistic of 40,000.

Go for it!

. . . but the joke is on you . . .

 

[PRmerger]

Go for it!

. . . but the joke is on you . . .

I never joke about something this obscene.

However, if it’s not the correct number, what is, and how do you know? Please cite your source, and I’ll be happy to consider.

 

[guanophore]

Which is in error: charismatic catholics or traditional catholics?

This is a good question. Both aspects are part of the Church Teaching. There is far more abuse on the Charismatic end of the spectrum than the Traditional, but both can be practiced within the bounds of orthodoxy.

 

[Dokimas]

This is a good question. Both aspects are part of the Church Teaching. There is far more abuse on the Charismatic end of the spectrum than the Traditional, but both can be practiced within the bounds of orthodoxy.

Thank you. I was hoping for PR’s answer to the question directed to her.

 

[PRmerger]

Which is in error: charismatic catholics or traditional catholics?

In error regarding what doctrine? Please be more specific, Dokimas.

 

[rinnie]

Of course there’s no verse with those words or implications.

You have no verse that say the CC it the only real voice of God.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Actually we do. The Priests, Bishops, Pope, Etc in the Church were given the gift of God by the imposition of hands. 2 Tim. 1:6

Luke 10:16 Whoever hears YOU hears ME, he who rejects you rejects me.
John 14:16, 16, 26 The Holy Spirit will be with you ALWAYS to teach and REMIND you of EVERYTHING.

 

[Dokimas]

Actually we do. The Priests, Bishops, Pope, Etc in the Church were given the gift of God by the imposition of hands. 2 Tim. 1:6

Luke 10:16 Whoever hears YOU hears ME, he who rejects you rejects me.
John 14:16, 16, 26 The Holy Spirit will be with you ALWAYS to teach and REMIND you of EVERYTHING.

Care should be taken not to read into verses something that is not there. I understand I must take care to do a better job following this advice myself.

 

[Dokimas]

In error regarding what doctrine? Please be more specific, Dokimas.

A charismatic catholic ‘service’ is different that a traditional catholic ‘service’. Sure there are similar aspects, but they are different. You are a stickler for sameness (your continued reference to 40,000 differences).