Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[AlegreFe]

Is it uncharitable for me to rather wish them an abstaining Catholic than be a practicing Protestant? This is probably a completely different discussion for another thread, but IMO, to be Catholic and than have switched to being a protestant shows other protestants that it’s ok to continue protesting the Catholic church. It is not.

I would agree with you. But then I get to thinking when Jesus said that he would make the stones talk. I do not think it is okay to keep on protesting the Catholic Church as Jesus asked Saul, “why do you persecute me” and he didn’t even know what Jesus was talking about at first. It’s just like a Protestant; if I told that person that he is persecuting Jesus he would think I was nuts. But the fact of the matter is, that he IS persectuting Jesus when he persucutes practicing devout Catholics and the Church. On the other hand, if that person is totally ignorant of what the Church teaches (please know that whenever I say “Church” I mean the Catholic Church) but in his heart he loves Christ and there is not one ounce of pride in him, perhaps God has a plan for him and that is for that person to go the route of protestantism before he comes back home to the Catholic Church so that he can know & understand what it is like for other protestants who truly do not know what the Church teaches.

I also know that many protestants know what the Church teaches and they refuse to “give in” or be humble enough to admit that they are wrong. I don’t see how their heart is in it for Jesus if that is the way they are. Not good. And just because someone is ignorant about what the Church truly teaches does not make it okay to persecute Jesus in persecuting the Church.

 

[AlegreFe]

The problem with your interpretation of the passage

emphasis mine: AlegreFe

The problem you have is seeing that this is my interpretation. It is not my interpretation. It is that of the Church which is that of the Apostles.

What really saved Noah and his family?

Being on the ark which floated on the water. They were on the ark because Noah obeyed God to build the ark and he also had faith; if he didn’t have faith he would not have obeyed. So building the ark was part of his “works” to show his faith in God and obeying showed his humility & submission to God. So I would say all of the above. But one cannot be placed by itself without the other. Just like water & spirit cannot be separated and faith & works cannot be separated. We need both water & spirit and both faith & works to be saved. Again, that is not my interpretation. Those are the words of God. Read your bible and you will see.

Faith. They got on the ark because they believed and trusted in God.

Not faith alone! You totally disregard scripture and you talk about Catholics not knowing scripture.
First read my comments in this post; I stated “all of the above.” But we cannot have water alone or spirit alone or faith alone or works alone. We do not believe in this concept of “one or the other” we believe in “both… and…”
Second take into consideration the following passages in scripture;
1 Peter 3:18-21 (ESV)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the
unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in
the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
20 because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience
waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in
which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through
water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a
removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good
conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John 3:5 (ESV)
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is
born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom
of God.

James 2:14, 20-22, 24, 26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has
faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith
apart from works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he
offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and
faith was completed by his works;
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by
faith alone.
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also
faith apart from works is dead.
You’ll probably say something to the effect that because you have faith you will automatically do works. It doesn’t work that way. You show your faith with or by your works. It is not an automatic given that because you have faith you will do good works. Not everyone operates that way. Some will argue that since they already have faith, they don’t have to do anything; they are already saved. Not true. We have to have faith AND works.

In the same way, baptism follows faith in Christ.

True but not for everyone. If you’re an adult and came to believe in Christ and you want to get baptized because of that, fine. That’s what you are saying, I agree. But if you are baptized as an infant, you have already received the gift of the Holy Spirit, you have already been adopted by God, you have been cleansed of original sin, you have been made a member of Christ’s body the Church. But the parents have to raise the child in the faith or risk losing that child to the world or to protestantism or some other religion or cult. If the child is raised in the faith and comes to believe in Christ they can choose to complete the initiation with Confirmation on their own. My daughter was 14 when she was Confirmed. But she wanted to get Confirmed at a much younger age because she had already made the choice herself. She believed in Christ all on her own without any force from me.

If you read the passage with the emphasis on the ark instead of the water it makes more sense. The ark is a type of Christ. People were saved in the ark just like we are now saved through Christ.

I’m glad you brought that up. We think of the Church as our ARK! But being in the ark alone without the water & spirit and without faith & works is just like sitting in an empty ark with no navigator to make sure we are safe. We also consider the Church as Peter’s boat from where Jesus preached to the people. I like being in Peter’s boat! So in conclusion, passing through the water saved the people on the ark.

 

[AlegreFe]

I agree. But what if it is not your child? Obviously we can only continue to try and educate if they’re open to listening.

I made my comment because even though I was a lapsed Catholic, I’d rather have been a lapsed Catholic than a practicing Protestant. Which is how I lived my life. I guess this is more of a reflection of me. I could never understand how a Catholic could leave the Eucharist for juice and crackers. Although, I left the Eucharist for, well, nothing but my own selfishness.

I’ll need to stop derailing this thread. Thank you for the comment.

I know exactly what you mean. I was also lapse. But I knew one thing, I would never become Protestant. I told this to myself as a lapse Catholic because I knew that the Catholic Church was the Church started by Christ. I knew that becomeing Protestant would not be good because, well, I’m Catholic!! But laziness took over instead of going to Mass on Sundays. I guess I just have to believe that God’s path for me was to just be a lapse Catholic instead of leaving the Church altogether to become a Protestant. I just wasn’t having that.

 

[AlegreFe]

Just to throw my own two cents in, it seems to me that baptism takes the place of circumcision in scripture. People were not required to be circumsized in the Old Testament in order to follow God or reach heaven, as I understand it, but Jews were required to do it as a means of identifying oneself as a Jew.

Huh? :ehh: Being circumsized meant you entered into a covenant with God. Even if you are not a Jew but were bought as a slave, they were to be circumcised also. If you were not circumcised then you break the covenant with God and therefore cut off from God. Circumcision was a sign of the covenant not a sign you were a Jew. I suppose there could have been Jews that were not circumcised. Does that mean they were not Jews? No. It just meant you were not in a covenant with God.

From my reading, I gather that baptism is much like circumcision in that if someone follows Christ but is not baptized, they will still see paradise.

Sorry, but you’re wrong. Jesus said Himself that unless you are born of water & spirit you cannot enter into the Kingdom. But you are correct in saying that circumcision is like baptism. In fact, baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision. Baptism marks the sign of your entering into the Body of Christ, the Church; you are now a member of the Church, whether you are Catholic or not. If you are not Catholic, so long as you are baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit, you are now a member of the Body of Christ. If you then decide to become Catholic, there is no need to baptize again since there is only one baptism.

However, we are told to be baptized as a means of identifying ourselves as followers of Christ.

Wrong again. Jesus commands us to be baptized if we want to enter into His Kingdom. “Baptism now saves you” as it says in Scripture. Jesus told His disciples to preach the Gospel and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

That said, scripture also makes it clear to me that the head of the household was responsible for ensuring that his sons were circumcized and is now responsible for ensuring that his household is baptized. That said, it seems obvious to me that a man following Christ has everyone in his household baptized and leads them to be followers of Christ Jesus.

This is true. Parents, who have been married in the Catholic Church are responsible for baptizing their children and to bring them up in the faith. This should also be true of non-Catholic Christians. They should make sure to baptize their babies.

 

[AlegreFe]

Scardinoz;5280417:

Just to throw my own two cents in, it seems to me that baptism takes the place of circumcision in scripture. People were not required to be circumsized in the Old Testament in order to follow God or reach heaven, as I understand it, but Jews were required to do it as a means of identifying oneself as a Jew.

From my reading, I gather that baptism is much like circumcision in that if someone follows Christ but is not baptized, they will still see paradise. However, we are told to be baptized as a means of identifying ourselves as followers of Christ. That said, scripture also makes it clear to me that the head of the household was responsible for ensuring that his sons were circumcized and is now responsible for ensuring that his household is baptized.

That said, it seems obvious to me that a man following Christ has everyone in his household baptized and leads them to be followers of Christ Jesus.

I agree with you Scardionz that a believing family should get baptized. We have to be carefull that it is not because we have to follow some sacrement.

That was meant to be a slap in the face of a Catholic and also to the Church and therefore a slap in the face of Jesus Christ Himself. Shame, shame, shame!!

Just as circumcision was an entrance into a covenant with God, baptism marks you as an adopted child of God and a member in the Body of Christ. Baptism also cleanses your soul of original sin. If baptized as an adult it also cleanses you of personal sin. That is the Sacrament that Jesus Christ established. Please do not take shots like that at Jesus. Be careful, be very careful.

We do it because we love Jesus and it is what we want to do because follownig Jesus simply is what we want to do.

We get baptized because Jesus said that the only way we can enter into His Kingdom is if we are baptized or “born of water & spirit.”

Circumsision is no longer necissary as mentioned many times in the NT, but it is compared directly to Spritual Circumcision (baptism of the holy spirit/regeneration) and not water baptism.

Yes, water baptism. What do you think “washing of regeneration” means? That is baptism! And when one is baptized, they receive the Holy Spirit!

Water baptism does not change the way someone acts once finished and therefore is unrecogmizable to anyone.

I would beg to differ on some level.
1 Peter 3:21 (ESV)
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a
removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good
conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Since baptism cleanses the soul of original & personal sin if an adult, than I would believe that it does change the person on some level when they understand what baptism means. If it is thought of an appeal to God for a good conscience, I would think that it does change a person. If baptized as an infant that “appeal for a good conscience” would be the responsibility of the parents to raise that child in the faith and to act accordingly.

Spritual baptism; however, should be recognized easily as the Lord says “you will know them by their fruits” Matt 7.

There is no such thing as “spiritual baptism” in the sense that you think. There is only ONE baptism as it says in Ephesians; and that is water baptism which brings on the Holy Spirit.

I do agree with knowing a person by their fruits. That is a sign of a true Christian. But it’s not because one has experienced “spiritual baptism.” I believe that if a person is baptized as an infant, they can also make the decision to get Confirmed later as a older child or young adult. Their baptismal vows are renewed and they receive the Holy Spirit. It’s like their own little Pentecost all over again. Both Baptism and Confirmation put an indelible mark on your soul. Just as circumcision marked a Jew as entering the covenant with God, so does Baptism & Confirmation.

 

[AlegreFe]

I agree with you Scardionz that a believing family should get baptized. We have to be carefull that it is not because we have to follow some sacrement.

I just had to add; the word Sacrament means (in its Latin origin) to make sacred or consecrate; to pledge an oath. That in itself says a lot about what covenant meant. Covenant meant to pledge an oath with God. Well so does Sacrament; just different words.

Look up the word sacrament in any secular dictionary or any dictionary of Etymology. You will see the very close similarities of the word covenant & sacrament.

A Covenant with God was eternal! God promised! And how can that covenant continue in the New Testament so that it could remain eternal for everyone? Through the Sacraments!

 

[jlhargus]

Baptism unites us with Christ. It is through those waters that we are joined with Him and we find forgiveness…Lets say someone was on their way to get baptized and on the way they got hit by a flying cow and were killed on the spot. Would this mean that they were going to spend eternity in Hell?

JL: No, he would be saved, however he is not born again the normal way, ordained by God. Just as a child, who has not been born the normal way, ordained of God, but by cesarian, through the intervention of the physician. The thief on the cross, also could not be born again the normal way, by water and Spirit. The Great Physician can intervene in our spiritual birth and the Holy Spirit can circumcise the heart of one who cannot be spiritually born the normal way, ordained of God. The Lord is not legalistic but merciful, God can act apart from the sacraments, the normative way, but not the absolute only way. Baptism by water and Spirit is the normative way God ordained, to be born again, washing away our sins and receiving the indwelling ot the HS. Scripture tells us in many places, Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be BORN OF WATER AND of the SPIRIT, he CANNOT ENTER into the KINGDOM of God.

Acts2:37 NOW when THEY HEARD this, THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR REMISSION OF SINS, AND ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. [FAITH, REPENT, BAPTIZED, REMISSION OF SIN, RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST.]

Didn’t those three thousand who were baptized the day they heard Peter preach the word of God, and were pricked in their heart, come to the foot of the cross, believe, having faith, when they asked, “WHAT MUST WE DO’. Peter told them 'WHAT THEY MUST DO”, 1. REPENT, acknowledging they are sinners in need of forgiveness. 2. Peter told them BE BAPTIZED, they were completely submissive and were baptized. WHAT DOES BAPTISM ACCOMPLISH? REMISSION OF SINS AND THEY WOULD RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST. [Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] Wasn’t Paul baptized in water to wash away his sins? This is WATER BAPTISM. Looks like the work of the Holy Sprit not magic.

In the sacrament of water baptism, water is a visible sacramental sign of the Spirit’s invisible work. We first die, crucified, with Christ, our sins are washed away being united with Christ and his shed blood in death by water baptism we are united with Christ in his death. We are raised to new life united with Christ’s resurrection and new life. Sharing Christ’s life of God with the indwelling HS. We are grafted into the TRUE VINE thru batism. [Gal 3::27… as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] [Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH? 4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE. 5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection. 6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]

[Rv1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM our SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD, Titus3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, BUT according to his MERCY HE SAVED US, BY THE WASHING of REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF the HOLY GHOST; 6 Which he SHED ON US abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 1Cor 12:13 …BY ONE SPIRIT we were ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY …1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT OF our GOD.]

Is it the act of getting wet that brings salvation, or is it the desire to do it? Is someone actually saved the moment they sincerely desire to be?

JL: By the act of obedience to God one gets wet and is born again by water and Spirit, the normative way, thru the working of the Holy Spirit. Washing away their sins and receiving the Holy Spirit. As scripture tell us.

 

[jlhargus]

I’ve known all kinds of Catholics who had been Christened and were the worst sinners I’ve known. I don’t think we’ve got this original sin thing figured out.

JL: That tells me they have chosen sin and rejected Christ. I have known many types of Protestants who have done likewise. Just because one is baptized or as you say SAVED does not mean they cannot reject Christ and return to a life of sin.

I would say not understanding original sin is only a problem for SOME Protestants but not Catholics. That’s why those Protestants do not baptize infants, the lack of understanding of original sin. Not to mention, not understanding baptism itself. They follow a tradition of men made a doctrine of God, claiming baptism is a useless ritual declaring publicly one’s faith or acceptance of Christ. The simple answer; when Adam and Eve sinned they died spiritually. How did they die spiritually, by losing the indwelling Holy Spirit, for themselves and all humanity. Baptism now restores the indwelling Holy Spirit to the soul, [Titus3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, BUT according to his MERCY HE SAVED US, BY THE WASHING of REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF the HOLY GHOST; 6 Which he SHED ON US abundantly through Jesus Christ our]. 1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT OF our GOD.] So original sin is the LACK of the indwelling Holy Sprit, being united with our Lord.

Baptism seems to be for people as a sign of their faith and to take things to the next level, not as a magical remedy for sin.

JL: There is no scripture telling us baptism is only a sign of one’s faith. This is nothing more than a tradition of men made a doctrine of God. I challenge you to show otherwise.

As far a magical remedy for sin, you may consider the power and action of God as magical, I don’t. Magic is slight of hand or deception, that is what Satan would use to feign a miracle. Saying baptism given to us by our Lord is magic puts you in the same category as those who accused Christ of being Beelzebub, Mk3:22.

I think God forgives us as we desire forgiveness… isn’t that how forgiveness works in our own lives? We can forgive people without their asking, but as far as our relationship goes, will there be any healing between us until they ask for forgiveness?

JL: New to me you need scriptural evidence God forgives without our asking.

 

[jlhargus]

Baptism seems to be for people as a sign of their faith and to take things to the next level, not as a magical remedy for sin.

JL: Just a little more evidence baptism is more than a tradition of men as a sign of faith:

In Ezekiel we have an Old Testament prophecy, according to the foreknowledge of God, of something better than circumcision to come.

Ez 36:24 FOR I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, I WILL CLEANSE YOU. 26 A NEW HEART also WILL I GIVE YOU, and A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN HEART OF FLESH. 27 And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, and I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

[1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, unto obedience and SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.] How are we sactified of the Spirit? How are we sprinkled with the blood of Jesus?

ACTS 19:1 And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and FINDING certain DISCIPLES 2 HE SAID unto them HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH AS HEARD whether THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST 3 And HE SAID unto them UNTO WHAT then WERE YE BAPTIZED? And THEY SAID UNTO JOHN’S BAPTISM 4 Then said Paul, JOHN verily BAPTIZED WITH the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE SAYING unto the people that they should BELIEVE ON HIM WHICH should COME AFTER HIM that is ON CHRIST JESUS 5 When they heard this THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS 6 And when PAUL had LAID his HANDS UPON THEM THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM and they spake with tongues and prophesied [Evidently more is needed than belief and faith in Christ, to be born again, because John’s baptism was of repentance, believing or having faith in the one to come, Christ. They needed the sacrament of Christian water baptism because the Holy Spirit and baptism go hand and hand else why would Paul ask about baptism when he found they had not heard of the Holy Spirit? We receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Christ’s baptism and a strengthening in the sacrament of confirmation, by laying on of hands, confirmation is Pentecost for the baptized.

How are we joined to the one body of Christ and drink of one Spirit? [1Cor 12:13 BY ONE SPIRIT we were ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY Jews or Greeks slaves or free all were MADE TO DRINK OF ONE SPIRIT]

How do we die with Christ? [Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH?]

How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ? [Rms6:4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE.]

How are we united to Christ? [Rms6:5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection.]

How is our old sinful self crucified with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? [Rms6:6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]

How are we complete in Christ? How are we circumcised without hands putting off the body of the sins of the flesh? [Col2:10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with the CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST] What is the circumcision of Christ? [Col2:12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are RISEN WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES.]

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

How are we saved by Christ’s mercy? How are we washed by Christ? How are we regenerated by Christ? How are we renewed of the Holy Ghost by Christ? [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]

What must we do to be saved by Christ? How do we receive remission of sins by Christ? How do we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? [Acts 2:38 …Peter said …REPENT and BE BAPTIZED…in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS and…RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.]

What do we do after we receive him and believe? What is that, born of God power, he gives us to become children of God? 1Jn 1:12 But to ALL WHO RECEIVED HIM who BELIEVED in his name HE GAVE POWER TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD 13 who were BORN not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but OF GOD

What must we do to be saved if we believe? [MK16:16 He that BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED but he that believeth not shall be damned.]

Does baptism save? 1Pt3:20 … eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISM NOW SAVES US.

How do we enter the kingdom of God? [Jn3:5 Jesus answered…UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.]
How do we put on Christ? [Gal 3::27… as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]
How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD] How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? [Rv1:6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]

How do we wash and what is our robe? Rv 7:14 I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They WASHED THEIR ROBES, and made them WHITE IN THE LAMB’S BLOOD. We are washed in baptism and our robes would be body and soul.

What is this washing, in the name of the Lord and in the Spirit of our God, that sanctifies and justifies us? 1Cor6:11 And such were some of you. But YOU WERE WASHED you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the NAME of the Lord JESUS Christ AND in the SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.

The answer to all the above is BAPTISM. There is ONE BODY and ONE SPIRIT, just as you were called to the ONE HOPE that belongs to your call, ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD AND FATHER of us all, who is above all and through all and IN ALL. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

 

[dyluck]

That was meant to be a slap in the face of a Catholic and also to the Church and therefore a slap in the face of Jesus Christ Himself. Shame, shame, shame!!

Just as circumcision was an entrance into a covenant with God, baptism marks you as an adopted child of God and a member in the Body of Christ. Baptism also cleanses your soul of original sin. If baptized as an adult it also cleanses you of personal sin. That is the Sacrament that Jesus Christ established. Please do not take shots like that at Jesus. Be careful, be very careful.

My appologies if you think I was speaking against my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
My intentions were not to do this. Please understand the empisis was not on “sacrement” but on “have to”. I believe whole heartedly that no commandment carried out because we have to is lout of love. I believe a commandment carried out because we want to and we can’t help it is out of love. This is the difference between the Old and the New Covenants.

We get baptized because Jesus said that the only way we can enter into His Kingdom is if we are baptized or “born of water & spirit.”

Let me address this whole topic to the best of my ability.

I found a great example of what we should all see below:
carm.org/christianity/baptism/baptism-necessary-salvation

It is probably one of the better short versions of SOME Protestant view on Baptism and its relation to salvation. Understand, that all that claim to be protestant or catholic for that matter can get doctrine wrong. If you cannot accept that Catholics get doctrine wrong to, then you decieve yourself. Nobody is perfect in this regard. That is why John says to test the spirit. Not by hearing some preacher, but by opening and reading chapter by chapter book by book slowly and carefully.

If you have any responses, please be sure to quote the body of that apologetics.

I think the key here is… Unless you want the bible to contridict itself, then you have to take this arguement into effect.

PS
RedSoxWife, please be patient with me. I will respond. In the middle of renos

God Bless all!

 

[swplan76]

…Now where does it say that Baptism gives people the ability to process the good news and respond to it? I thought baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. When you are baptised you receive the gift of the Holy spirit, it is the gift of the Holy SPirit that cleans your from your sins.

Hi Rinnie,

    I didn't say that Baptism gives people the ability to process the good news.  Maybe I wasn't totally clear - People get Baptised in scripture after processing the good news.  Baptism is a response to understanding (at least in scripture).

   So, the argument is that babies can't speak or understand language, so they can't choose to respond to what they are hearing, so they shouldn't be baptized until they can.

   Yes, baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, but it isn't as simple as that.  Baptism is supernatural - we don't understand everything that happens, but scripture points to some realities beyond just forgiveness of sin.

   Some people receive the gift of the Holy Spirit before they get baptized (in my experience and in scripture).  So, is the Baptism that "cleans you" from your sins, or the HS?  hmmm...

Have a great day!
SW

 

[swplan76]

JL: No, he would be saved, however he is not born again the normal way, ordained by God. Just as a child, who has not been born the normal way, ordained of God, but by cesarian, through the intervention of the physician. The thief on the cross, also could not be born again the normal way, by water and Spirit. The Great Physician can intervene in our spiritual birth and the Holy Spirit can circumcise the heart of one who cannot be spiritually born the normal way, ordained of God. The Lord is not legalistic but merciful, God can act apart from the sacraments, the normative way, but not the absolute only way. Baptism by water and Spirit is the normative way God ordained, to be born again, washing away our sins and receiving the indwelling ot the HS.

Thanks!

Well put.
SW

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Those Protestant groups which reject infant baptism give a number of reasons:

1. There are no explicit examples of anyone other than adult believers being baptised in the New Testament. Even in the baptisms of ‘whole households’ there is no mention of small children or infants being present, so that the case for baptism of infants is conjectural only and never explicitly authorized or practiced.
2. There are only late New Testament references drawing parallels between baptism and the OT proactice of circumcision, and these are not so explicit that we can assume that the NT writiers intended for baptism to be a precise parallel with circumcision.
3. Protestants generally do not feel that Original Sin brings any condemnation upon a person. Only actual sin brings us under the condmenation of God, and actual sin can only occur with full knowledge and consent of the will. Protestants therefore speak of baptism as being unnecesary until children reach the ‘age of discretion’ the age at which they are truly accountable for their actions, usually understood to be somewhere around the age of eight to twelve.
4. Most Protestants feel the Catholic stress on baptism as a saving act makes salvation conditional upon a ‘work’. Protestants stress that salvation is based on grace through faith, a faith not of human origin but which is a gift of God. Baptism, therefore, is seen as an act of obedience and of gratitude undertaken AFTER a person has received saving faith.

Hope this helps!

Thank you. I’ve been reading through many of the posts and it seems that our beliefs are pretty badly misrepresented here.

Thank you for attempting to describe our beliefs fairly and honestly.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie,

    I didn't say that Baptism gives people the ability to process the good news.  Maybe I wasn't totally clear - People get Baptised in scripture after processing the good news.  Baptism is a response to understanding (at least in scripture).

   So, the argument is that babies can't speak or understand language, so they can't choose to respond to what they are hearing, so they shouldn't be baptized until they can.

   Yes, baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, but it isn't as simple as that.  Baptism is supernatural - we don't understand everything that happens, but scripture points to some realities beyond just forgiveness of sin.

   Some people receive the gift of the Holy Spirit before they get baptized (in my experience and in scripture).  So, is the Baptism that "cleans you" from your sins, or the HS?  hmmm...

Have a great day!
SW

Baptism is not a response to understanding the scripture. Baptism is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace, Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. You never answered my question? Let me ask you again, Do you believe or do you not believe that we were brought into this world by original sin? Or do you believe that when a baby is born into this world that baby is totally free from sin? If so why does the bible say that because of the sins of Adam and Eve we all have the scar of that sin on us, because they were the first.

Another real big problem I am having with what you said. You said that some people receive baptism AFTER they receive the Holy Spirit. How in the world is that possible. That is completely what BAPTISM is. It the gift of the Holy SPirit that comes upon us with the cleansing of Water to free us from our sins. What you are saying going totally against scripture. Could you possibly show me where the bible says that you receive the Holy SPirit long before you are Baptised? I am at a loss.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Baptism is not a response to understanding the scripture. Baptism is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace, Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. You never answered my question? Let me ask you again, Do you believe or do you not believe that we were brought into this world by original sin? Or do you believe that when a baby is born into this world that baby is totally free from sin? If so why does the bible say that because of the sins of Adam and Eve we all have the scar of that sin on us, because they were the first.

Another real big problem I am having with what you said. You said that some people receive baptism AFTER they receive the Holy Spirit. How in the world is that possible. That is completely what BAPTISM is. It the gift of the Holy SPirit that comes upon us with the cleansing of Water to free us from our sins. What you are saying going totally against scripture. Could you possibly show me where the bible says that you receive the Holy SPirit long before you are Baptised? I am at a loss.

There were three crosses, only one was Baptised, yet only one was left behind.

 

[rinnie]

There were three crosses, only one was Baptised, yet only one was left behind.

I do not understand what you are saying. Could you explain to me what you mean?

 

[AlegreFe]

My appologies if you think I was speaking against my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I didn’t “think” I know you were speaking against Him. Don’t apologize to me. Apologize to our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

My intentions were not to do this. Please understand the empisis was not on “sacrement” but on “have to”. I believe whole heartedly that no commandment carried out because we have to is lout of love. I believe a commandment carried out because we want to and we can’t help it is out of love. This is the difference between the Old and the New Covenants.

Well I emphasis the have to. You probably take the Church’s “have to” the wrong way. Jesus commanded that we be baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. It was a command, not a suggestion as in, “if you want to get baptized but you don’t have to if you don’t want.” If we want to see God we need to get baptized. We need the Sacraments in order to receive Sanctifying Grace. Jesus touches us through the Sacraments. It is not a man-made tradition that we do this. Sacraments were not invented by man. They were instituted by Jesus Christ as His pouring sanctifying grace on us.

It is only because God loves us that he puts these commands on us. He gives us free will to choose what is right. He does not give us free will to choose evil.

1 Peter 2:16 (DR-V)
16 As free, and not as making liberty a cloak
for malice, but as the servants of God.

1 Peter 2:16 (ESV)
16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom
as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

Understand, that all that claim to be protestant or catholic for that matter can get doctrine wrong.

The Catholic Church will not and CANNOT get doctrine wrong. That’s like saying the Holy Spirit can get it wrong!

If you cannot accept that Catholics get doctrine wrong to, then you decieve yourself.

I deceive no one. I only say what the Church says. And the Church does not deceive just as God does not deceive.

Nobody is perfect in this regard.

Wrong again. The Church is perfect. The Pope is infallible when it comes to faith & morals.

That is why John says to test the spirit. Not by hearing some preacher,

I don’t listen to “preachers” as they are not Catholic Priests. Although there are priests who “get it wrong” at times. But the Church never gets it wrong when it comes to doctrine, faith & morals.

but by opening and reading chapter by chapter book by book slowly and carefully.

wrong again. You cannot rely on your own understanding of scripture. You can pray the Gospels through the heart of the Church and you’ll never get it wrong, but only if you stick with the Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good start to understanding the Catholic faith.

I think the key here is… Unless you want the bible to contridict itself, …

I don’t have to worry about that. I know the bible is full of what the Catholic Church calls paradoxes, not contradictions. I trust in the teachings of the Church because I trust in the Apostles and especially in Jesus Christ Himself who established this Church on Peter the Rock.

 

[AlegreFe]

I found a great example of what we should all see below:
carm.org/christianity/baptism/baptism-necessary-salvation
…
If you have any responses, please be sure to quote the body of that apologetics.

Quote by Matt Slick:
“Baptism is not necessary for salvation.
It is the initiatory sign and seal into the
covenant of grace.”
That anti-Catholic website “carm” is wrong in that statement. Baptism is necessary for salvation. I’ve read the whole article and I agree with many parts of it. Or shall I say, the Church agrees. But the Church totally disagrees with Matt saying that baptism is not necessary for salvation. Jesus Himself said it! You cannot enter the Kingdom unless you are born of water & spirit. What don’t you get about the words of Jesus?!

And in the quote above, Matt contradicts himself. He says baptism is not necessary but then he says it’s the sign & seal into the covenant. So that would mean that if you are not baptized with the sign & seal, then you do not enter into the covenant. If you are not in the covenant, you are not “in” with God and cannot be in His Kingdom. What do you think that means?! He gets it right as far as sign & seal. When we are baptized there is an indelible mark put on our souls, and it’s there forever. But just because it’s there forever does not mean we cannot lose our salvation. We most definitely could lose our salvation.

The “forever” part of the mark means there is only one baptism. So we are “saved” when we are baptized. But when we fall into mortal sin we lose that salvation. Jesus in His mercy has given Priests the power to forgive sins or retain them. So when we go to the Sacrament of His Mercy which is Confession, we are “saved” again. But we do not have to get baptized again. Sanctifying Grace has been poured over us in the Sacrament of Confession.

Quote by Matt Slick:
*“If someone maintains that baptism is necessary
for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the
finished work of Christ?”*Absolutely NOT! God’s works are not futile nor useless. Sacraments are not man-made. They are part of the Christian faith set by Jesus Christ!

Would you call the work of a doctor or surgeon an added work of his own to the work of Christ? Of course not. We need doctors & surgeons so that we can heal physically. Well we need Priests, standing in the person of Christ, so that we can heal spiritually. I am so grateful to God for the one High Priest and thankful to Jesus for his ministerial priests who are needed here on earth to carry on the work of Christ.

 

[AlegreFe]

4Squarebaby;5300432:

There were three crosses, only one was Baptised, yet only one was left behind.

I do not understand what you are saying. Could you explain to me what you mean?

Three crosses:

1. Jesus
2. the good theif, Saint Dismas
3. bad theif

Jesus was the only one baptized. The other two were not baptized with water. But only one of them was not saved. Or in 4Squarebaby’s words, “yet only one was left behind.”

Let me explain to 4Squarebaby;

The reason why Saint Dismas was “saved” was because he had a “baptism of desire.” He believed in the mercy of Jesus and trusted that if he pleaded with Jesus, He would save him. St. Dismas wanted so bad to be with Jesus and his desire & humility saved him. Not only that, he suffered his own purgatory right there on the cross next to Jesus.

If a person has the ability and the means to go to a church and get baptized he should do it. But all his desires in the world will not save him if he could physically get to a church to get baptized. You know what they say about good intentions. If he cannot get baptized for some reason but wants to be baptized, or if he is on his dying bed and wants to get baptized but dies before it could happen, God will have mercy on his soul and save him. We pray for the souls of the faithfullly departed all the time.