Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

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Baptism is a very important ordinance for the Christian. But it is not what saves us and it is not part of salvation. We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), not faith and baptism.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
The ultimate salvation for us is Grace! We are saved by grace alone. But how does one attain grace? It is a free gift from God. And God pours His grace on us all the time. We just have to hear His voice when He speaks to us. The Church calls that grace “actual” grace. But we must do something with that grace. We have to allow the Holy Spirit to animate us. With that grace we need to frequent the Sacraments so that we can receive Sanctifying Grace. God giving us a free gift does not guarantee our salvation uless we open up that gift and use it or do something with it. Would you like it if you gave someone that you love a gift and they shoved it under the bed and never opened it or used it? God does not give us free grace for us to shove it under the bed. We must utilize that free gift and do something. Doing something does not mean we think Jesus’ suffering was for nothing. We complete His work as His Body the Church.

Col 1:24 (ESV)
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake,
and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking
in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body,
that is, the church,
Christ is the Head of His Church. Christ’s Body also suffered. We are His Body the Church, therefore we too must suffer. We too must do our part in salvation. Faith without works is dead!
 
You dropped into Christianese. When the previous post was talking about reason it was a break from the doctrine of original sin. The infant can not “sin” thus doesn’t need forgiveness given to him by parental and church elders actions. without the intent to go against God there is no sin.
The baby of course does not have personal sin. But that baby still has the stain of original sin which has to be removed. The only way it could be removed is by water baptism.
 
The baby of course does not have personal sin. But that baby still has the stain of original sin which has to be removed. The only way it could be removed is by water baptism.
Find that in the bible…
 
The Church does not teach that our works alone save us. The Church believes in faith AND works. Faith without works is dead.

James 2:14-26
Faith cannot be expressed without action… Thats what this is saying.
You cannot say you have faith unless you can prove it.
It has absolutly nothing to do with how much “good works” one does.
The evidence of your faith is through your actions.
Baptism does have saving power.
the verse you quoted in your translation is specifically this:
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

They key word is “correspond”,
“like figure whereunto”
The greek word is: antitupon

Which means “representitive” or better yet “antitype” (NKJ) which means : An opposite or contrasting type.

~
21. The like figure whereunto. I fully think that the relative ought to be read in the dative case, and that it has happened, through a mistake, that o{ is put, and not w=|. The meaning, however, is not ambiguous, that Noah, saved by water, had a sort of baptism. And this the Apostle mentions, that the likeness between him and us might appear more evident. It has already been said that the design of this clause is to shew that we ought not to be led away by wicked examples from the fear of God, and the right way of salvation, and to mix with the world. This is made evident in baptism, in which we are buried together with Christ, so that, being dead to the world, and to the flesh, we may live to God. On this account, he says that our baptism is an antitype (ajnti>tupon) to the baptism of Noah, not that Noah’s baptism was the first pattern, and ours an inferior figure, as the word is taken in the Epistle to the Hebrews, where the ceremonies of the law are said to be antitypes of heavenly things, (Hebrews 9:4.) Greek writers apply the same word to sacraments, so that, when they speak of the mystical bread of the holy Supper, they call it the antitype. But here there is no comparison made between the greater and the less; the Apostle only means that there is a likeness, and as they commonly say, a correspondence. Perhaps it might more properly be said to be correspondency, (ajnti>strofon,) as Aristotle makes Dialectics to be the antistrophè of Rhetoric. But we need not labor about words, when there is an agreement about the thing itself. As Noah, then, obtained life through death, when in the ark, he was enclosed not otherwise than as it were in the grave, and when the whole world perished, he was preserved together with his small family; so at this day, the death which is set forth in baptism, is to us an entrance into life, nor can salvation be hoped for, except we be separated from the world.

Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh. This was added, because it might be that the greatest part of men would profess the name of Christ; and so it is with us, almost all are introduced into the church by baptism. Thus, what he had said before would not be appropriate, that few at this day are saved by baptism, as God saved only eight by the ark. This objection Peter anticipates, when he testifies that he speaks not of the naked sign, but that the effect must also be connected with it, as though he had said, that what happened in the age of Noah would always be the case, that mankind would rush on to their own destruction, but that the Lord would in a wonderful way deliver His very small flock.

We now see what this connection means; for some one might object and say, “Our baptism is widely different from that of Noah, for it happens that most are at this day baptized.” To this he replies, that the external symbol is not sufficient, except baptism be received really and effectually: and the reality of it will be found only in a few. It hence follows that we ought carefully to see how men commonly act when we rely on examples, and that we ought not to fear though we may be few in number.

But the fanatics, such as Schuencfeldius, absurdly pervert this testimony, while they seek to take away from sacraments all their power and effect. For Peter did not mean here to teach that Christ’s institution is vain and inefficacious, but only to exclude hypocrites from the hope of salvation, who, as far as they can, deprave and corrupt baptism. Moreover, when we speak of sacraments, two things are to be considered, the sign and the thing itself. In baptism the sign is water, but the thing is the washing of the soul by the blood of Christ and the mortifying of the flesh. The institution of Christ includes these two things. Now that the sign appears often inefficacious and fruitless, this happens through the abuse of men, which does not take away the nature of the sacrament. Let us then learn not to tear away the thing signified from the sign. We must at the same time beware of another evil, such as prevails among the Papists; for as they distinguish not as they ought between the thing and the sign, they stop at the outward element, and on that fix their hope of salvation. Therefore the sight of the water takes away their thoughts from the blood of Christ and the power of the Spirit. They do not regard Christ as the only author of all the blessings therein offered to us; they transfer the glory of his death to the water, they tie the secret power of the Spirit to the visible sign.

Cont next post
 
What then ought we to do? Not to separate what has been joined together by the Lord. We ought to acknowledge in baptism a spiritual washing, we ought to embrace therein the testimony of the remission of sin and the pledge of our renovation, and yet so as to leave to Christ his own honor, and also to the Holy Spirit; so that no part of our salvation should be transferred to the sign. Doubtless when Peter, having mentioned baptism, immediately made this exception, that it is not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, he sufficiently shewed that baptism to some is only the outward act, and that the outward sign of itself avails nothing.

But the answer of a good conscience. The word question, or questioning, is to be taken here for “answer,” or testimony. Now Peter briefly defines the efficacy and use of baptism, when he calls attention to conscience, and expressly requires that confidence which can sustain the sight of God and can stand before his tribunal. For in these words he teaches us that baptism in its main part is spiritual, and then that it includes the remission of sins and renovation of the old man; for how can there be a good and pure conscience until our old man is reformed, and we be renewed in the righteousness of God? and how can we answer before God, unless we rely on and are sustained by a gratuitous pardon of our sins? In short, Peter intended to set forth the effect of baptism, that no one might glory in a naked and dead sign, as hypocrites are wont to do.

But we must notice what follows, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. By these words he teaches us that we are not to cleave to the element of water, and that what is thereby typified flows from Christ alone, and is to be sought from him. Moreover, by referring to the resurrection, he has regard to the doctrine which he had taught before, that Christ was vivified by the Spirit; for the resurrection was victory over death and the completion of our salvation. We hence learn that the death of Christ is not excluded, but is included in his resurrection. We then cannot otherwise derive benefit from baptism, than by having all our thoughts fixed on the death and the resurrection of Christ. ~ John Calvin 1509-1564 - Comm_vol45
 
I didn’t “think” I know you were speaking against Him. Don’t apologize to me. Apologize to our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
I wasn’t speaking against him… Quote for me what I said against my savior…
Well I emphasis the have to. You probably take the Church’s “have to” the wrong way. Jesus commanded that we be baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. It was a command, not a suggestion as in, “if you want to get baptized but you don’t have to if you don’t want.” If we want to see God we need to get baptized. We need the Sacraments in order to receive Sanctifying Grace.
We are santified through Faith.
Jesus touches us through the Sacraments.
I wish you can hear youself talk…
It is not a man-made tradition that we do this. Sacraments were not invented by man. They were instituted by Jesus Christ as His pouring sanctifying grace on us.
It is only because God loves us that he puts these commands on us. He gives us free will to choose what is right. He does not give us free will to choose evil.
Ummmm so what kind of free will is that?
1 Peter 2:16 (DR-V)
16 As free, and not as making liberty a cloak
for malice, but as the servants of God.

1 Peter 2:16 (ESV)
16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom
as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
These passages have nothing to do with what we are talking about so I don’t know why you quoted them.
The Catholic Church will not and CANNOT get doctrine wrong. That’s like saying the Holy Spirit can get it wrong!
And thats why Paul went to countless churches to exort and rebuke their doctrine.
The Church is perfect. The Pope is infallible when it comes to faith & morals.
The Pope is infallable? Oh my… so basicly you are holding the Pope in way too high Esteem. He’s the authority over the catholic church… human and just as sinful as you and me.
I don’t listen to “preachers” as they are not Catholic Priests. Although there are priests who “get it wrong” at times. But the Church never gets it wrong when it comes to doctrine, faith & morals.
Priests get it wrong but not the Pope? You contridict yourself there a bit.
So your telling me a flock following a priset that “gets it wrong” sometimes do not endup following “getting it wrong sometimes” doctrine?
If the Catholic church doesn’t get it wrong, why did is split in the first place?.. Must be 100% infallable…
The bride is perfect, but doesn’t mean that the people that make the bride up get it wrong. Some “brides” think they are the body, but are way off and not even a bride at all.
wrong again. You cannot rely on your own understanding of scripture. You can pray the Gospels through the heart of the Church and you’ll never get it wrong, but only if you stick with the Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good start to understanding the Catholic faith.
You are right, you must be in a church body. You must teach and be taught, but you must test the spirit taught to you with the word. The only way you can know if your Priest is preaching sound doctrine is to get your nose in the word and study… Not topicly but expository studies.
I don’t have to worry about that. I know the bible is full of what the Catholic Church calls paradoxes, not contradictions. I trust in the teachings of the Church because I trust in the Apostles and especially in Jesus Christ Himself who established this Church on Peter the Rock.
I didn’t want to say anything here, but I’m just going to say it. Peter was not the rock of the church… Jesus is the rock… Study, read, exort whatever you need to do on this one.
That doctrine is being based off 1 verse when many many verses says Jesus is the rock, the cornerstone, the head.

God bless.
 
I wasn’t speaking against him… Quote for me what I said against my savior…

We are santified through Faith.

I wish you can hear youself talk…

Ummmm so what kind of free will is that?

These passages have nothing to do with what we are talking about so I don’t know why you quoted them.

And thats why Paul went to countless churches to exort and rebuke their doctrine.

The Pope is infallable? Oh my… so basicly you are holding the Pope in way too high Esteem. He’s the authority over the catholic church… human and just as sinful as you and me.

Priests get it wrong but not the Pope? You contridict yourself there a bit.
So your telling me a flock following a priset that “gets it wrong” sometimes do not endup following “getting it wrong sometimes” doctrine?
If the Catholic church doesn’t get it wrong, why did is split in the first place?.. Must be 100% infallable…
The bride is perfect, but doesn’t mean that the people that make the bride up get it wrong. Some “brides” think they are the body, but are way off and not even a bride at all.

You are right, you must be in a church body. You must teach and be taught, but you must test the spirit taught to you with the word. The only way you can know if your Priest is preaching sound doctrine is to get your nose in the word and study… Not topicly but expository studies.

I didn’t want to say anything here, but I’m just going to say it. Peter was not the rock of the church… Jesus is the rock… Study, read, exort whatever you need to do on this one.
That doctrine is being based off 1 verse when many many verses says Jesus is the rock, the cornerstone, the head.

God bless.
Then why did Jesus build his Church on Peter and the other apostles the Catholic Church which he protects by his own presence and the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Why Did he choose the apostles and give them full authority? Why does the Church continue to pass on revelation today the same as it did from the start of the Church?

Yes Jesus is the Rock, And he changed Peters name to Rock. Why did he do that if Peter was not to be the Rock? Why does Peter translate into Rock, and why does Rock translate into Father, and why does Father translate into Papa and why does Papa translate into Pope. You explain all of this to me, and then we can get somewhere. It is not my truth. It is Gods truth. Look it up. Do the History. I would not lie to you. Then you come back and show me where my Church was wrong. That the bible the words of Jesus Christ did not change Peter into Rock, did not make Peter the leader of the flock. SHow me where Jesus did not say Peter feed my sheep. Show me where all of these words that the RCC go by are false? I showed you that the words all of them are in the bible. Now you show me where they say the opposite?
 
Also please show me where the Catholic Church split from itself. ANy Church that is in communion with Rome is still today considered the Catholic Church. How can the Catholic Church split from itself when it has never left. It is still here today just as it was over 2000 years ago. Where did it Go?
 
Find that in the bible…
Good luck. Baptism cannot remove sin. The Bible says that only the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin.

Anybody who thinks that children do not sin has never been to a playground.
 
Good luck. Baptism cannot remove sin. The Bible says that only the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin.

Anybody who thinks that children do not sin has never been to a playground.
Excuse me mr tractor man. then can you tell me this. Why did Jesus die on the cross, and after his death, where did he go, and what did he do?

And also what do you think Baptism is? And what does it do? :eek:
 
Jesus Said that Baptism is given for the forgiveness of Sins. If you read Peter he say’s everyone must be baptised. he never said only certain people. Whole households also means everyone in the house. THere were baby’s back then. Now where does it say that Baptism gives people the ability to process the good news and respond to it? I thought baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. When you are baptised you receive the gift of the Holy spirit, it is the gift of the Holy SPirit that cleans your from your sins.
I think its important to consider the issue in context. Was Baptism done repeatedly? No. What about wicked animals? Were they baptised? How did John baptize? Who did John Baptize? How did baptism carry on beyond John - what does scripture say?

Scripture doesn’t offer us any examples of babies being baptized. When it says, “entire household” did that include babies? If the basic requirement of baptism is that it requires the person to consider what they believe, then babies would have likely not been baptized. That is why many Protestant churches encourage kids to get baptized upon their own inspiration/as God leads them - it should be something they choose.
 
Excuse me mr tractor man. then can you tell me this. Why did Jesus die on the cross, and after his death, where did he go, and what did he do?
Christ died on the cross to atone for our sins. After His death, He went to Abraham’s Bosom to preach the Gospel to the faithful Jews of the OT. On the third day, He was resurrected from the dead. Forty days after His resurrection, He ascended to Heaven where He now sits at the right hand of the Father.
And also what do you think Baptism is? And what does it do? :eek:
Baptism, in itself, doesn’t really do anything except get you wet. The purpose of baptism is a symbolic ritual by which one proclaims their faith in Christ, testifies that they have been born again, and are brought into the church.
 
Christ died on the cross to atone for our sins. After His death, He went to Abraham’s Bosom to preach the Gospel to the faithful Jews of the OT. On the third day, He was resurrected from the dead. Forty days after His resurrection, He ascended to Heaven where He now sits at the right hand of the Father.

Baptism, in itself, doesn’t really do anything except get you wet. The purpose of baptism is a symbolic ritual by which one proclaims their faith in Christ, testifies that they have been born again, and are brought into the church.
Oh, See thats not what Jesus said. Baptism as the plunge into the waters symbolizing the catechumens burial int Christ’s death. From which he rises up by resurrection with him as a new creature.

Its in 2 Corinthians 5:17 Whoever is in Christ is a new creation. What does that scripture mean to You.

The teachings of the Apostles was that Christ came to establish a kingdom of the Spirit. Thorough his death and ressurrection Christ won for God a new people, a holy people a people set apart marked with Gods Spirit. We who are members of the chruch are that new people and we are the beginning of a whole new creation.

What does your church say Baptism does. And could you show me scripture to show me what you teaches. I did:D
 
I think its important to consider the issue in context. Was Baptism done repeatedly? No. What about wicked animals? Were they baptised? How did John baptize? Who did John Baptize? How did baptism carry on beyond John - what does scripture say?

Scripture doesn’t offer us any examples of babies being baptized. When it says, “entire household” did that include babies? If the basic requirement of baptism is that it requires the person to consider what they believe, then babies would have likely not been baptized. That is why many Protestant churches encourage kids to get baptized upon their own inspiration/as God leads them - it should be something they choose.
Oh, Could you show me where it says ENTIRE households does not include baby’s. Sorry but I have to disagree. I remember Jesus saying let the Children come to me.

Answer me this, even today, If I take a survey and ask what are the name of the People in your entire household. Do that mean I would exclude baby’s. Does not make sense to me. Answer me this, Why would you not want a baby who is born into original sin to be held to that sin. Why would you not want it washed away, knowing that by not removing original sin you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Because the O.T. tells us because of adam and eve we are all born into sin. Or do you disagree with the O.T. teachings?
 
Oh, See thats not what Jesus said.
If you think we’re wrong, then why don’t you show me what Jesus said, rather than just telling me that Jesus said something else?
Its in 2 Corinthians 5:17 Whoever is in Christ is a new creation. What does that scripture mean to You.
First of all, and this is not a knock against you, personally, but the question should never be “what does that scripture mean to you”, but simply, “what does that scripture say”.

What you’re asking me to do is to give my subjective opinion of what I think about the verse, when we really should be looking at what the verse, itself, says.

In this case, the verse is referring to being born again and the new nature one receives when they are born again.
What does your church say Baptism does.
Exactly what I just said it does.
And could you show me scripture to show me what you teaches.
Sure, just as soon as you show me scripture that shows “that’s not what Jesus said”.
 
If you think we’re wrong, then why don’t you show me what Jesus said, rather than just telling me that Jesus said something else?

First of all, and this is not a knock against you, personally, but the question should never be “what does that scripture mean to you”, but simply, “what does that scripture say”.

What you’re asking me to do is to give my subjective opinion of what I think about the verse, when we really should be looking at what the verse, itself, says.

In this case, the verse is referring to being born again and the new nature one receives when they are born again.

Exactly what I just said it does.

Sure, just as soon as you show me scripture that shows “that’s not what Jesus said”.
Okay then let me say it different. that is exactly what 2 Cor. says. That if you are of Christ you are a new Creation. ANd that is done through Baptism. That is what that scripture is saying plain and clear. You said it is just pouring water over someones head. Scripture says quite different. Actually you even contradicted yourself. Read what you wrote.😃
 
Okay then let me say it different. that is exactly what 2 Cor. says. That if you are of Christ you are a new Creation. ANd that is done through Baptism.
No, one is not born again through baptism. Baptism comes in response to being born again.
Actually you even contradicted yourself. Read what you wrote.😃
No, I haven’t contradicted myself. Perhaps you just didn’t read my posts carefully.
 
No, one is not born again through baptism. Baptism comes in response to being born again.

No, I haven’t contradicted myself. Perhaps you just didn’t read my posts carefully.
Yes you most certainly did. Again. John3:5 states clearly Amen Amen I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water ANd the spirit.

THere is nothing thats say baptism comes from response to being born again. You are adding to the words of scripture.

Unless you can now show me scripture that states that. I gave you the scripture and it clearly does not!
 
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