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Mickey
Guest
How do you know that so many baptized people serve sin? Do you read hearts?
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
No, I can’t read hearts, but I can read the word of God.
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Mickey
Guest
Where does the Word tell you that baptized Christians serve sin?
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rinnie
Guest
And again where did I say by the removal of original sin that we can no longer sin? And yes I still stand that by Baptism original sin is removed.
Which is a very simple answer to why babys are Baptised because they are born into original sin. By Baptism the stain of original sin is removed from them. The sooner the better.
Which is a very simple answer to why babys are Baptised because they are born into original sin. By Baptism the stain of original sin is removed from them. The sooner the better.
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
It doesn’t. However, we can observe people who say they’ve been baptised and whether or not they serve sin. If they do, then they are evidence that the claim that one is born again by being baptised is not true.
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rinnie
Guest
I don’t know you tell me? You are the one that said the baptism means nothing, not me.
You are the one that said baptism is just water, it just gets you wet not me
So if you don’t believe that Baptism is more then just water why are you standing waist deep in water dunking People? Especially when you said baptism means nothing?
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
Round and round she goes. Where she stops, nobody knows.
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rinnie
Guest
Where do you have the power to ever judge anyones sin. Where did God every ask anyone to observe anyones elses sin. ANd pass judgement on them. And where did you get the authority to ever say that anyones Baptism is not true. We as Catholics acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. The way the Church taught us.
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rinnie
Guest
Sorry Paker didn’t mean to ignore you. And you are quite correct. By the way, that’s not my teaching. I should have told you. If you ever really want some good understanding of the Catholic Faith. Bishop Donald Wuerl. He has a way of explaining scripture that is awesome. I understand that you are not Catholic and would never try to push you to do so. But If you ever need a clear understanding of our Faith, hes the teacher. By the way he actually isn’t a Bishop anymore. He moved up in the Ranks
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
You know, you seem to have a real reading comprehension problem and, frankly, it’s getting a little annoying.
Just as I never said that baptism doesn’t involve water nor asked you to show evidence that baptism means water, so I never said anything at all about judging anyone’s sin or that anyone’s baptism isn’t “true”.
I think it’s best if I just put you on my ignore list.
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Mickey
Guest
Thank you.
You may observe that someone may be sinning. But there is no way for you to know that they are serving sin. You do not read hearts. Furthermore, it is not even your place to judge someone if they commit sin.
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JohnDeereFan
Guest
It has nothing to do with “reading hearts”. It has to do with looking at the scriptures and comparing the fruit a person produces.
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rinnie
Guest
I stopped right here. Because you cannot answer my question’s. So I get the ignore list. Thats okay. Anyone who deny’s one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and then goes around and watches others sins, Well thats enough for me. I can feel the hate and anger in your words. Actually all of your responses are full of them. I can see you accept none of the teaching;'s of the CHurch. You actually accused the Church on another site of trumping God. Yeah saw the love you are sharing over there too:
I do not understand why you are on this site though. Your hate for the CC is so obvious. Taking about good fruit:shrug:
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dyluck
Guest
You are right you can observe someone who is sinning. However, you can recognize who a true Christian is as well (by their fruits) (Matt 7)
We are to rebuke and exort eachother, why do you think you bring matters to the church if matters of sin cannot be solved between brethren? There must be some sort of recognition that a sin is being comitted.
Also, if you read 1 Corinthians 5:11 It clearly states if a “so-called” brother is committing habitual sin, do not even eat with such a person.
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rinnie
Guest
Funny duluck another scripture comes to mind for me. Its the one that say he who is without sin cast the first stone. I have never been taught to ever rebuke or extort anyone who is with sin. I was taught first of all that it is for God to judge not I. And as far as bringing matters to the Church I thought that really had to do with forgiveness. I was taught that if you saw a brother or sister in sin you should do all you can do to help them. At least try, not condemn. I was never ever taught to go out and observe others sins and then rebuke and exort eachother. I was taught to pray for eachother. I have never realized how different the Protestant and Catholic teachings are.
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dyluck
Guest
No one says to sit back observe others with a pen and start writing everyones transgressions down and casting judgements on people rinnie.
- The bible is saying that you can recognise those with nature of a true Christian or otherwise. Is that Judging… well kind of.
However, if you do read Matt 7:2-5 even talks about brother to brother judging. It also doesn’t indicate that you cannot judge each other.
You just made a Judgment friend. But its true and you do say it out of love.
You also missunderstand the full meaning of judging versus recognizing. Judging someone requires the concequence. The prostitue WAS guilty of prostitution. Jesus knew it and the men holding the stones knew it. Is that Judgement no not fully… Casting the first stone would mean that you would have to carry out a judgement on a person. That is what Jesus was saying here. If you cast the first stone just as guilty in your sin deserves the same judgement. We see an act of forgiveness here, everyone didn’t condem her and Jesus says you have been forgiven.
Matt 18:15-17
15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
let him be to you as an unbeliever… that sounds like a judgement.
Rinnie. God is loving. We are to love the brother and sisters in the lord. Part of that is also rebuking them. Its like having a child. You don’t want your child to touch the TV, it he touches the TV he will get repremended. So what you are saying is there is no concequences in your home? If your brother is constantly drinking, you would not say to them “brother, by your actions, biblicially I see no evidence of your salvation”…
That my friend is not wrong and you show more love of your brother in this way.
Finally you argue against this:
Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebukeThan love that is concealed.
Rev 3:19
All those I love I rebuke and dicipline. So be earnest and repent. (do we not follow the same model with our families?) How is this ANY different with fellow believers?
2 Timothy 3:16-17
Proverbs 3:11-12
God bless
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rinnie
Guest
While I agree with your scripture, its your interpretation of that scripture that I disagree with. Yes God said let those that are without sin judge. You have a splinter in your eye just as I do. While yes we can see sin, and judge sin we have no right to judge another. All that we can do is pray for that person, and pray that they will turn away from their sin. To rebuke and turn away from the person totally is judgeing. I am sorry.
In 2 Tim I agree with you completely. Which ties into go to the Church. Let those who are equipped for every good work. THe Priests. It is for the Priest and the Church to offer forgiveness and guidence for someone in sin, not us. Yes whoever is in sin should repent and ask for forgiveness.
Just as the prostitute was sinning. But just as the people in the crowd made a judgement call as you say it, Jesus showed them quite clear I would say, Cast the first stone. Not a stone was cast was it. Then how could you say to someone you are going to hell. Please do not take it upon your self to do that. You do not know the reason one turns to sin. Just because someone is drinking does not mean you have the authority to go up and say quit drinking or you are going to hell. Kinda reminds me of its not what goes into your mouth that will send you to hell it what comes out.
If you see a brother or sister in trouble the last way you are going to bring them back to God is rebuke them and lecture them. To say if you do not stop right now you are going to hell and I will have nothing to do with you.
If it was my sister or brother in need I would pray for them, let them know that whenever they are ready to reach out my hand is there. And my faith in God and belief in prayer for them and help from the Holy SPirit is what I believe is what will bring them back to God.
Then I would try to get them back into the Church, repent, confess and hopefully they can help someone else who had that cross to carry, I would never judge a person on the outside because of their sins, and rebuke then and tell them to repent they are going to hell. I am sorry. I disagree with you,
While I agree and would not engage into the sin with them, I would never take it upon myself to judge them. Only God knows the crosses they are carrying inside, and Only God will help them carry those crosses. While I would not enable them to engage in the sin, I sure would never judge them or turn them away. My door would always be open and I would do whatever in my power to help when they are ready.
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rinnie
Guest
dyluck. If you could would you do something for me. There is a song by I believe by David Allen, I know what you are thinking yeah david allen coe is going to teach me about God. BUt try it anyone. If anyone knows the name of the song help me out here.
ANyway it talks about this lady and she is a sinner, she drinks, etc. Not who you would want you children by. The person goes on to expose this womens sins. just in case anyone in the neighborhood misses them. Any way the point, the sinner never said a thing. The Christian lady of course lets her know her fate.
Months go by, because of one person people all stay away from the sinner. Next thing you know you hear alot of commotion, Red lights, everywhere. Everyone runs out, what’s going on. Here a car is about to hit this persons little child. But something happened someone ran out put themself between the car and the child and threw the child out of harms way.
THe Lady says who is this wonderful Christian yells who did this for my baby. I guess I don’t need to tell you who that great Christian was. They said well its that sinner, that Lady who lived up the road, you know the one. Listen to the song. Just do that for me!
ANyway it talks about this lady and she is a sinner, she drinks, etc. Not who you would want you children by. The person goes on to expose this womens sins. just in case anyone in the neighborhood misses them. Any way the point, the sinner never said a thing. The Christian lady of course lets her know her fate.
Months go by, because of one person people all stay away from the sinner. Next thing you know you hear alot of commotion, Red lights, everywhere. Everyone runs out, what’s going on. Here a car is about to hit this persons little child. But something happened someone ran out put themself between the car and the child and threw the child out of harms way.
THe Lady says who is this wonderful Christian yells who did this for my baby. I guess I don’t need to tell you who that great Christian was. They said well its that sinner, that Lady who lived up the road, you know the one. Listen to the song. Just do that for me!
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kalt
Guest
And so we get to the standard answer about sinning after the OSAS people have been “born again”.
Of course! They really weren’t saved in the first place. They thought they were, but their actions prove that they weren’t.
This applies only to those who commit really “bad” sins that require long prison sentences, of course. The multitude of “little” sins that the “saved” commit throughout their post-born-again lives don’t count. You can’t tell that they aren’t saved by their sins. Of course not.
This is not a problem for them, because they truly don’t believe that baptism actually does anything. It’s just a thing they like to do after the actual getting-saved event.
What we ask, and none of them can answer, is, How do you know that you’re saved, if your future behavior is the only indicator of your status?
Since the future behavior hasn’t occured yet, none of them can know that they are actually saved. They like to beleive that they would never commit one of those really bad sins that identify the others as mistaken about their conversion. But can anyone ever be sure? Certainly at least some of the others were sincere in their conversion and were as convinced as the “truly saved” that he was one of saved.
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kalt
Guest
I’ve noticed that people commit the same sins over and over again–habitually.
I bet if you examine your own sins, you will see that you are guilty of the same few. Is this evidence that you aren’t really a Christian?
And where does the idea come from that Christians don’t commit murder, armed robbery, adultery, etc?
There are some on this forum who’ve claimed, though they say that they don’t believe in the difference between venial and mortal sin, that true Christians don’t commit serious sins like murder.
Since all sin is forgiveable through confession, what is the basis for the claim that someone who is “saved” won’t commit serious sins?
Aren’t we called to continual conversion? Where does the idea come from that being a Christian is a one-time event, and that any serious sin commited after that event is proof that the event didn’t really happen or that it (baptism, according to another poster) was ineffectual?
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