Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[dyluck]

I’ve noticed that people commit the same sins over and over again–habitually.

I bet if you examine your own sins, you will see that you are guilty of the same few. Is this evidence that you aren’t really a Christian?

Well, I am no longer a slave to sin. Jesus broke the condemnation of sin and Regenaration took care of the power of sin.
So, yes we do sin. But is our life characterized by sinfull nature? No… But when you do sin, the evidence would be that after you commit the sin you are broken over it a brought to repentance and continue to grow more in true righeousness and holiness.

And where does the idea come from that Christians don’t commit murder, armed robbery, adultery, etc?

Then what separates the new man from the old man? I though being a new creature, you were no longer a slave to sin… I thought you hate the sin you once loved.
I can certianly say that if a Christian is involved in any of those sins, then he would be brought to some serious brokenness over his sin an be brought to immediate repentance and remorse over it and through the power of the Holy spirit, turn away from those sins. If he continues to commit those sins after repentance, keeps on murdering or keeps on committing adultery, then by the evidence of his life we would see it does not bear good fruit nor could he truly have repented (turned away from the sin).
A “so-called” brother isn’t a brother. Therefore it would be safe to say they aren’t Christian.

There are some on this forum who’ve claimed, though they say that they don’t believe in the difference between venial and mortal sin, that true Christians don’t commit serious sins like murder.

Since all sin is forgiveable through confession, what is the basis for the claim that someone who is “saved” won’t commit serious sins?

Well, sin is sin is sin… It only took 1 sin to be eternally separated from God, condemation of sin to be imputed ot all man kind doomed to suffer the Wrath of God for eternity.
I do believe there is far less chance of a truly born again Christian to commit “mortal” sins or whatever, but not exempt.
Now you are getting way off topic here because we can be getting into talking about unforgivable sins like blasphemy of the holy spirit or sins committed unto death.
I believe there are sins unforgivable. Read Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31, Mark 3:29, 1 John 5:16-17

Aren’t we called to continual conversion? Where does the idea come from that being a Christian is a one-time event, and that any serious sin commited after that event is proof that the event didn’t really happen or that it (baptism, according to another poster) was ineffectual?

The first awesome thing I heard the whole time on this form! Thank you. More often then not you will find people who believe all they need is the conversion part and then live like the devil the rest of their lives and still be saved. (which is deathly wrong).

I believe we to grow in santification and holiness. I believe repentance, confession and faith are growing and ongoing events.
Which only strenthens my point. I do not believe a true child of God can completely fall nor do i believe that their salvation can be lost. However I do hold to the fact that there is a vast difference between someone who says they are a christian and someone who truly is walking by the spirit.

 

[rinnie]

Well, I am no longer a slave to sin. Jesus broke the condemnation of sin and Regenaration took care of the power of sin.
So, yes we do sin. But is our life characterized by sinfull nature? No… But when you do sin, the evidence would be that after you commit the sin you are broken over it a brought to repentance and continue to grow more in true righeousness and holiness.

Then what separates the new man from the old man? I though being a new creature, you were no longer a slave to sin… I thought you hate the sin you once loved.
I can certianly say that if a Christian is involved in any of those sins, then he would be brought to some serious brokenness over his sin an be brought to immediate repentance and remorse over it and through the power of the Holy spirit, turn away from those sins. If he continues to commit those sins after repentance, keeps on murdering or keeps on committing adultery, then by the evidence of his life we would see it does not bear good fruit nor could he truly have repented (turned away from the sin).
A “so-called” brother isn’t a brother. Therefore it would be safe to say they aren’t Christian.

Well, sin is sin is sin… It only took 1 sin to be eternally separated from God, condemation of sin to be imputed ot all man kind doomed to suffer the Wrath of God for eternity.
I do believe there is far less chance of a truly born again Christian to commit “mortal” sins or whatever, but not exempt.
Now you are getting way off topic here because we can be getting into talking about unforgivable sins like blasphemy of the holy spirit or sins committed unto death.
I believe there are sins unforgivable. Read Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31, Mark 3:29, 1 John 5:16-17

The first awesome thing I heard the whole time on this form! Thank you. More often then not you will find people who believe all they need is the conversion part and then live like the devil the rest of their lives and still be saved. (which is deathly wrong).

I believe we to grow in santification and holiness. I believe repentance, confession and faith are growing and ongoing events.
Which only strenthens my point. I do not believe a true child of God can completely fall nor do i believe that their salvation can be lost. However I do hold to the fact that there is a vast difference between someone who says they are a christian and someone who truly is walking by the spirit.

Well then you do not agree with St Paul then, Because he says that he knows it can. That is why he works out his salvation with fear and trembeling. What do you think about Judas. Do you think the Judas never had salvation?

Here is where you have me confused, You said you do not believe a true Child of God can completely Fall or Salvation can be Lost. Okay not let me ask you this. What do you think sin does to your soul. Do you not think that sin is complete proof of a fall. Rather you confess, repent or not before you did that you have fallen from Salvation, at that moment have you not? Now either sin is falling from salvation or it isn’t. You can’t be in sin and still have complete salvation at the same time. So we have a problem. Either you have fallen from sin or you didn’t. You can’t have it both ways. Now what way is it. Or do you believe you can be in a state of Sin and a state of Grace at the same time.

 

[dyluck]

While I agree with your scripture, its your interpretation of that scripture that I disagree with.

Nobody said to rebuke and turn away. I don’t care what version of the bible you have, if you cannot read that passage and not get what its saying, I don’t know what other interpertations you mean…
Its saying if I have a problem with kicking cats all day, telling my brother he should not kick cats is hypocritical. However, if through the holy spirit, I repented of kicking cats and no longer have issues with kicking cats anymore, there is nothing wrong with noticing the issue and helping a brother with his cat kicking problem. Thats what this is saying… Don’t be hypocrate and tell other people to not kick cats when you have the same problem. (funny example I know. kicking cats is not a true story lol ).
Later on in the same chapter it says “you will recognize them by their fruits”! It all ties together.

It is for the Priest and the Church to offer forgiveness and guidence for someone in sin, not us.

Umm well you are supposed to try to deal with it yourself before aproaching the church. It is only if your brother isn’t listening that you take it to 2-3 people and then if still no listening is occuring, then the Church.

The Church cannot forgive sins. They can reassure them that the father has forgiven sins through the blood of Christ. Priest can guide yes, but a Priest only human just like you and me… they cannot grant God’s forgiveness. Now if someone wronged a priest directly (sinned against the Priest himself), then the priest can forgive them. The Priest does not have the power to grant forgiveness. Sorry, but you won’t find solid evidences of that anywhere in the bible.

Jesus showed them quite clear I would say, Cast the first stone. Not a stone was cast was it.

Jesus was indicating at what merit that makes them greater then the person to be stoned. They are sinners just like the prostitue. Therefore they sin and ultimately deserve the same punishment. Like a thief flicking the switch to a murderer on deathrow.

Then how could you say to someone you are going to hell.

Nobody is going around condemning people to hell… But you shouldn’t sugar coat it either… If someone is not of Jesus, they are going to hell… simple as that. We can dance around it all we want, but it only hinders those whom you share the gospel with by with holding truth.
Also, Jesus himself says if you do not bear fruit you will be cut down and thrown in the fire.

Look at the first 3 chapters of Romans. Paul breaks people over their sins. If he doesn’t tell them the concequence of sin, how is it that they will undestand what they are being saved from… Sin and Gods Wrathl. The gospel isn’t the Gospel without understanding sin and it’s concequence before you can understand Grace.

The problem is people sugar coating and shrinking the gospel to make it look more like a chocolate chip cookie then the Scandelous Good News that is the true Gospel.

You do not know the reason one turns to sin. Just because someone is drinking does not mean you have the authority to go up and say quit drinking or you are going to hell.

You can only be a slave of 1 master… sin or righeousness.
If someone IS drinking themselfs into oblivion it would be UNLOVING of you to let the person drink and not say anything… How absolutly horrible if that is what you would do. Lastly… the bible does say “drunkards will not enter the kingdom of heaven”. Someone who is lost is lost, they won’t enter heaven anyway. It was people that called themselves Christians being addressed by that statment. If you are a drunkard and you do not repent and turn away from your drinking problem, you will go to hell… simple as that. How else do you want me to put it? “Well you drink, well and thats ok, but Jesus doesn’t like it too much, but thats ok if you do. Just confess and Jesus will forgive you and if you keep on drinking, then Jesus will just keep on forgving you. Its not like you are putting him to open shame by continuing to go on willfully sinning(drinking) or anything.”

Do you see? Man needs to be broken over sin. It need to bring you to your knees and repentance must follow.

If you see a brother or sister in trouble the last way you are going to bring them back to God is rebuke them and lecture them.

Well first of all, nothing I do can bring a person to God. Only God can do that. If a person is truly Christian then rebuke will only strenghten them anyway. Who is to say rebuke isn’t from God?! Its in the bible… There is a way to rebuke lovingly yes but don’t sugar coat stuff.

If it was my sister or brother in need I would pray for them, let them know that whenever they are ready to reach out my hand is there. And my faith in God and belief in prayer for them and help from the Holy SPirit is what I believe is what will bring them back to God.

Yes you are right! What happens now if you do not see change in your brother or sister? Do you enable them? or do you read the versus I gave before.

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

While I would not enable them to engage in the sin, I sure would never judge them or turn them away. My door would always be open and I would do whatever in my power to help when they are ready.

Well, the funny thing is rinnie, you would of had to “judge” them in the first place to note there is even a sin present.
Anyway, you are right, you must aproach them in love. Just make sure you don’t sugar coat anything, because if you do, that is a form of enabling them. People try anything to justify what they do and if there is unclear sugar coated gobbly goop in the way, they will use that as an enabler. We must be like salt Matt 5:13

God bless rinnie

 

[dyluck]

Well then you do not agree with St Paul then, Because he says that he knows it can. That is why he works out his salvation with fear and trembeling. What do you think about Judas. Do you think the Judas never had salvation?

Here is where you have me confused, You said you do not believe a true Child of God can completely Fall or Salvation can be Lost. Okay not let me ask you this. What do you think sin does to your soul. Do you not think that sin is complete proof of a fall. Rather you confess, repent or not before you did that you have fallen from Salvation, at that moment have you not? Now either sin is falling from salvation or it isn’t. You can’t be in sin and still have complete salvation at the same time. So we have a problem. Either you have fallen from sin or you didn’t. You can’t have it both ways. Now what way is it. Or do you believe you can be in a state of Sin and a state of Grace at the same time.

Well now we are getting into predestination. Jesus selected Judas yet knew that judas would betray him anyway.
Jesus hand picked Judas knowing full well he would betray him. Not only knew but Willed it to happen.
John 6:64-66 (New American Standard Bible)
64"But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
Interesting. An no I do not think Judas was ever in the position of salvation. read verse 65
Also: John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Now about perservierance of the saints.
Again a whole nother topic. Anyway, you have to believe in predestination to understand perserverance of the saints. If God predestined his elect, then how can you lose it?
Firstly if you are the sheep and he says he doesn’t lose his sheep. God only disiplines his Children and puts them back on the path.
If you say “well sheep can get scattered” read the verse… IT says sheep of an imposter can get scattered, NOT Jesus’ sheep.
If you believe in being born again (spritual baptism) the evidences are no longer having slavery to sin. Which negates your sin argument.
My argument is if you have “fallen from grace or salvation or whatever”. You were never in the position of salvation to begin with. If you were a regenerate son of God, Sin has no slavery over you.

I do not believe you can be in 2 states. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righeousness. If you are lukewarm, you are still a slave to sin and will be spit out and thrown in the fire.

 

[rinnie]

Okay you said you cannot be in sin and a state of grace at the same time. I agree with you 100%. But you still did not answer my question. How can you sin and not be in danger of loosing salvation? Are you saying that a person who is a Christian is without sin? Again you need to explain this to me. You are either in the state of sin and if you are you have for that time lost salvation, or you are in the state of sin but you still have not lost salvation, which one is it? Because by what you are saying you are either one or the other what about when you sin? Or are you trying to tell me if you are a Christian you will never sin? I have a real problem with this,

Another problem Jesus told his Apostles all power of heaven and earth has been given to me, now I give that power to you go and make disciples of all nations. Then he said to them you have the power to bind and loose. Now you said that they do not have that power, Jesus did, Now what? How do you explain those words that he said to the apostles. Do you simply ignore them.

Now our third problem. You said Jesus willed Judas to sin? How is that possible. While I agree that God know’s all. God never took our free will off of us. Could you show me where he did? Jesus gave us all free will, now according to you, No Judas did not have free will, and sinned because Jesus willed him to.

 

[rinnie]

And Also I disagree with you again that Judas was never in the position of salvation. Why do you believe that Judas did not agree that Jesus was God. I am sorry I believe he did. But even if he didn’t he was taught the truth. Anyone who is taught the truth has the right and knowledge of salvation. I do believe that Judas accepted that Jesus was the Son of God. I just think that Judas on his free will gave into sin. The way we all do. And I do not believe that Judas had to fall into sin. And I also do not believe that it was the sin that Judas did that lost him his salvation. Just like I do not believe it is our sin that can loose us our salvation. What lost Judas his salvation is the same thing that makes us all loose our salvation is we need to confess and repent our sin. Judas did not do that.

Look at Peter he betrayed Jesus did he not? Do you not think that Peter was in sin. Do you think God willed Peter to betray Jesus. No he did not. Peter choose to betray Jesus. But Jesus knows when we sin, and why we sin. Jesus knew that Peter would panic. Jesus knows what fear can drive one to. Does it make the sin not a sin, no it does not. But was Peter sorry yes he was, how do we know because he cried. But what did Peter to he repented, Was Judas sorry yes he was, but instead of repenting and asking for forgiveness he gave into the devil.

Please understand I think you are a very good person, I admire your faith and your love for our Lord also. I just do not agree with your version of scripture. I go by the church.

And as far as a brother or sister in sin I do not believe it is my place to judge or rebuke them as you say. I think that anyone who is of God and knows the truth also knows when they are in sin. I don’t think they need me or anyone else to rebuke them. While I agree that I can not join them in their sin or enable them to sin, I also do not have the right to rebuke them. They know they need to turn away from their sin, and they will turn back to God when they say, not when I tell them. But it is not my place to judge them or their sin. Its Gods place. All I can do is pray and hope they turn back to God. I just think the worse thing you can do to a person in sin is to keep letting them know. I do not think we need to do that, I think that they are suffering enough and know that only they can help themself. I think that when a person is lost and in despair God knows and God will bring them back in his own way. I sure did not see the Father rebuke his son. I saw the Father welcome his son back with open arms and celebrate because his son has come back to God. I saw the Father fill with joy because his son was back into the state of Grace. And I see that the son had fallen out of the state of Grace and had lost salvation for a time. But because he did repent, and admit his sin, was forgiven and back into a state of Grace. So again we do not see things the same at all. I did not see the Father or the other son rebuke him. I saw them welcome him back home with Love and happiness.

 

[rinnie]

See I believe the prodigal son stroy blows your ideas of salvation and sin right of the water. Because you are going to have to make a choice here. Was the son in the state of sin, and at that time in his life was his salvation lost. According to my teaching’s yes he was. And yes he had lost salvation.

Now according to you, you cannot loose salvation, and once you are saved you can never sin, or loose salvation. Well the son was saved and had salvation. But he turned his back on God and turned from a state of grace into a state of sin. It was his choice, God did not will him to do that, God loves all of us, but gives us free will. And no matter what sin we do we can be forgiven if we are truly sorry and repent. I see that son as a person who had salvation, lost salvation, and gained salvation back.

Now whats your take on that story. Was the son or was the son not in a state of sin, If you agree that he was, then he was not in the state of grace. And if you are not in a state of grace at your death you have lost salvation. That story could have gone either way. But did God not find a way to bring the son back to Salvation. But also just because God found a way to open the sons eyes the son could have refused to listen to God again, could he not? So again this is proof to me that salvation can be lost. I believe there are times in ours lives we are all in the state of sin, and can loose salvation. I believe it, and St Paul believed it. He saw that no matter how much we love God, we can never take for granted that we are saved. We can pray that we are, but God will make that final judgement not us. We are all sinners. The bible will tell you that.

 

[kalt]

Well now we are getting into predestination. Jesus selected Judas yet knew that judas would betray him anyway.
Jesus hand picked Judas knowing full well he would betray him. Not only knew but Willed it to happen.
John 6:64-66 (New American Standard Bible)
64"But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
Interesting. An no I do not think Judas was ever in the position of salvation. read verse 65
Also: John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Now about perservierance of the saints.
Again a whole nother topic. Anyway, you have to believe in predestination to understand perserverance of the saints. If God predestined his elect, then how can you lose it?
Firstly if you are the sheep and he says he doesn’t lose his sheep. God only disiplines his Children and puts them back on the path.
If you say “well sheep can get scattered” read the verse… IT says sheep of an imposter can get scattered, NOT Jesus’ sheep.
If you believe in being born again (spritual baptism) the evidences are no longer having slavery to sin. Which negates your sin argument.
My argument is if you have “fallen from grace or salvation or whatever”. You were never in the position of salvation to begin with. If you were a regenerate son of God, Sin has no slavery over you.

I do not believe you can be in 2 states. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righeousness. If you are lukewarm, you are still a slave to sin and will be spit out and thrown in the fire.

And here we have the proof that** you** can’t know if you are saved or not. God knows if you will eventually be saved, not because he has predestined you to eternal death (Jesus’ offer is for all), but because he is eternal, but you can’t know.

Until Judas betrayed Jesus, his “fruits” looked pretty darned good, didn’t they. To others and I’m sure to himself. Who among the apostles could tell from the other’s fruits which of them would betray Jesus?

But if you insist that you know you’re saved and that unlike Judas, you won’t do something that surprises even yourself…

I have to ask, though, what makes you think that you know your own future? What makes you think that you are a Saint and not a Judas? How do you know?

 

[Mickey]

Also, if you read 1 Corinthians 5:11 It clearly states if a “so-called” brother is committing habitual sin, do not even eat with such a person.

So you eat alone every day?

 

[Mickey]

We are to rebuke and exort eachother

**St. Paul … says, … ‘By judging another you condemn yourself’ (Rom. 2:1). But men have given up weeping for their own sins and have taken judgment away from the Son. They themselves judge and condemn one another as if they were sinless. **
St. Maximos the Confessor

 

[dyluck]

So you eat alone every day?

Comments like that bring absolutly no value to the conversation.
Please avoid acting out of sarcasim as it really shows your maturity.

 

[dyluck]

**St. Paul … says, … ‘By judging another you condemn yourself’ (Rom. 2:1). But men have given up weeping for their own sins and have taken judgment away from the Son. They themselves judge and condemn one another as if they were sinless. **
St. Maximos the Confessor

Yes you are right the B-Attitudes is “Blessed are they that mourn” Mourning over their sin. The pharasees were a prime example of judging everyone else but themselves.

But, you guys still don’t get what I am talking about. Rather frusterating no less.
You can watch your brother sin and say nothing.
Weather you think it is judgemental or not, you still recognise it so don’t be hypocritical.

Read the whole Romans 2 again. Please
Who is Paul addressing here first of all… You are right, we are certianly not to “judge” the final judgement of God or people who are lost. Nor can we say to anyone “you are indeed going to hell”; however, you can say, by the evidences of your life, you are on the broad way that leads to destruction.

How do you interpret this verse: Please walk me through this verse by verse. Either you kath or rinnie.

1 Cornthians 5:9-13
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

 

[Mickey]

Comments like that bring absolutly no value to the conversation.

I am completely serious.

it really shows your maturity.

Insults will not help your debating skills.

 

[Mickey]

however, you can say, by the evidences of your life, you are on the broad way that leads to destruction.

Do you say that to many people?

It is better to not judge them and be a witness by the way you live and treat others–it is much more effective than telling them that they are on “the broad way that leads to destruction”.

Do you often tell people that they are headed to hell?

 

[Mickey]

1 Cornthians 5:9-13
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

I believe there was an issue of incest in the Corinthian Church that St Paul was addressing here.

11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

The remainder is referencing Church discipline. This is a wonderful example of the Apostolic discipline of ex-communication.

On a personal level–I do not know any swindlers, revilers or idolaters. I do not drink, so I do not hang around a social event if drinking begins. Do I know people who are immoral? I cannot say. I suppose they would have to tell me that they are immoral in which case I would attempt to appeal to their conscience. If someone else tells me that my brother is immoral–it is second-hand information.

Do I know covetous people? I do not know. But they would have to tell me that they are covetous in which case I would attempt to appeal to their conscience. If someone else tells me that my brother is covetous–it is second-hand information.

I am not here to judge people to hell with fire and brimstone.

It is said that the man who merely looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart. And that anger is synonymous with murder. So I ask you again.

Do you eat alone?

Note: this thread has now been thoroughly derailed and I am partly to blame. If you care to continue this discussion, I suggest you start a new thread. This one is supposed to be about infant baptism.

 

[dyluck]

Okay you said you cannot be in sin and a state of grace at the same time. I agree with you 100%. But you still did not answer my question. How can you sin and not be in danger of loosing salvation? Are you saying that a person who is a Christian is without sin? Again you need to explain this to me. You are either in the state of sin and if you are you have for that time lost salvation, or you are in the state of sin but you still have not lost salvation, which one is it? Because by what you are saying you are either one or the other what about when you sin? Or are you trying to tell me if you are a Christian you will never sin? I have a real problem with this,

Of course you will sin. But the nature of your life is no longer sinfull.
Let me give you an example. If you were to follow a lost person around with a video camera the whole day then played it back, you could easily say that that person sins and commits sin all the time. Many of them habitual and you can see the depravity there.
Now that lost person converts, repents, believes and is regenerated by the holy spirit into a new man. He has grown in repentance and is a new man. You follow him around with a video camera again. Now, the wholistic view of that day was not manifesting and pleasing sinful nature but you can see clearly his growing in righeousness and holiness. However, if you followed him around with a picture camera, you can take pictures of each time he sinned and say that this man is still a sinner. I never said a true Christian is without sin. Our flesh is still attached and ingrained sin still attached to that. But the characteristic of a new creature’s life is not a sinfull one. Thats what so many chapters talk about. Romans 6, Galatians 5, Most of Ephesians and Corinthians.
Jesus has paid the price for all the sins you have already committed and what you will commit in the future. Gods grace is not limited by our faith nor is it limited by when we ask for forgiveness. Gods grace extends to the future too. So that negates this whole, if I committed sin now I’m in danger of losing my salvation. BUT the key here is Evidence… The evidence I am saved is that I am living a new way. Not because I have to, but because it is my new nature to live like that. If I am constantly getting drunk and denying repentance, well there doesn’t seem like evidence of regeneration there at all… I would then say you are not baptized by the holy spirit in which the bible says you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Another problem Jesus told his Apostles all power of heaven and earth has been given to me, now I give that power to you go and make disciples of all nations. Then he said to them you have the power to bind and loose. Now you said that they do not have that power, Jesus did, Now what? How do you explain those words that he said to the apostles. Do you simply ignore them.

You say I ignore aspects of the bible, yet it seems as though you ignore biblical arguments I have brought forward.
We have to power to forgive sins committed against us. Not sins committed just against God.
Quote any verse where we are to forgive sins and it will contain “Sins committed against you”.

“I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven - Indeed not to him alone, (for they were equally given to all the apostles at the same time, John 20:21,22,23 but to him were first given the keys both of doctrine and discipline. He first, after our Lord’s resurrection, exercised the apostleship, Acts 1:15. And he first by preaching opened the kingdom of heaven, both to the Jews, Acts 2:14 and c., and to the Gentiles, Acts 10:34 and c. Under the term of binding and loosing are contained all those acts of discipline which Peter and his brethren performed as apostles: and undoubtedly what they thus performed on earth, God confirmed in heaven. Matt 18:18.” - Westley’s Notes
“The power of binding and loosing was shared Mt 18:18 Jn 20:23 by the other disciples. That it did not involve the determination of the eternal destiny of souls is clear from Rev 1:18. The keys of death and the place of departed spirits are held by Christ alone.” – Scofield Reference Notes

“ A metaphor taken from stewards who carry the keys: and here is set forth the power of the ministers of the word, as Isa 22:22 says, and that power is common to all ministers, as Mt 18:18 says, and therefore the ministry of the gospel may rightly be called the key of the kingdom of heaven.
(o) They are bound whose sins are retained; heaven is shut against them, because they do not receive Christ by faith: on the other hand, how happy are they to whom heaven is open, who embrace Christ and are delivered by him, and become fellow heirs with him!” – John Calvin (Genova Study Bible)

Lastly please tell me what this says in your own interpretation:
1 Cor 5:1-5 “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.”

 

[dyluck]

Now our third problem. You said Jesus willed Judas to sin? How is that possible. While I agree that God know’s all. God never took our free will off of us. Could you show me where he did? Jesus gave us all free will, now according to you, No Judas did not have free will, and sinned because Jesus willed him to.

Ok I guess you do want to talk about Free Will vs. Predestination (Supremacy of God).
First of all, I do not think we can begin to understand that both free will and predestination must co-exist and therefore your choices and actions are of free will; however, do not fall outside of the power of God, God’s will, Gods plan, God’s choices and Gods ultimate Glory. I hate the “robot” thinking of people who argue against predestination because they don’t think that the two arguments must coexist.
When I look at teh grass blowing back and forth and a mosquito flying to its next location. I believe God is in control and declares everything to happen. I really challenge you to read all of the passages below. I can get more, but there is quite a bit there to chew on for sure.

Ezekiel 11:19-20 – I Will, I will and I will be their God.
Ezek 36:26-27 – I will cause you to walk in my statutes
Rom. 9:11-25
Eph. 2:8-10
John 1:12-13
John 15:16
Acts 13:48
Acts 16:14
Philippians 2:13
John 5:21
Acts 4:27-28 – Clear example where God uses a sinful man to do his purpose
Acts 2:23
2 Sam 24:1 together with 1 Chron 21:1
Gen 50:20

•God controls the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11
•God controls all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30
•God controls angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12
•God controls nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35
•God controls human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16
•God controls animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6
•God controls “accidents”: Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29
•God controls free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27
•God controls sinful men and Satan: Job, Acts 2:23; 4:27-28;
2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20
Ephesians 1:11

Isaiah 43:6-7

Let’s look at this verse here:
Matthew 10:30
“But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”
Do you think God simply knows how many hairs are on your head or declared how many hairs are on your head?

It was prophesies that Jesus would be sold for 30 pieces of silver… It was Judas that sold him for 30 pieces of Silver. It was predestined that Judas would betray Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Your reasoning still does not line up with scripture. Just because God knew way ahead of time what would happen, by no means made it happen. God gave us free will. That free will to sin or not to sin was given to us from God.

If God right now gives me a million dollars yes he knows what I will do with it. Not because he makes me do it, because he is God and knows all. God knows a heart. Only God. Just because he know the future does not mean he still does not let me make my own choices.

What you fail to see is Judas betraying Jesus had nothing to do with fullfilling scripture. Do you not see that if Judas did not betray Jesus that would have been the scripture. God knows everything that we will do, have done because he can see in the future. But just because he can see what has and will happen by no means makes him make it happen. If he was going to take control of our life, why put us here in the first place. He gave us the choice to make.

Again you want scripture 2 ways and that can’t be. We either have free will or we don’t. Either we make our own decisions in life or we do not.

We either sin and repent or we do not. Sure God knows who are his and who are not by our works. But you don’t. Because you do not know a person works or heart. Only God does that is why only God can judge us. What you see is what you think you see. BUt only God knows for sure.

You feel if a person drinks or eats with sinners are to be condemned. The same thing was said about Jesus. He drank and ate with sinners. He was accused of being a drunk also. BUt see he was not a drunk was he. But he was observed by others who had no right to judge him. ANd that is what they did.

I was always taught that I was not to worry about your sin. I have enough of my own to worry about.

Now getting back tot he Priest do you believe that Jesus had the right to forgive sin? Do you believe that he gave that right to the APostles. Then if you agree with that then how can you deny Apostolic succession. When Jesus said himself I am with you always until the end of the world. Now either the Apostles had the power or they did not. If they had the Power then they also had the power by God to pass on like he told them. So the bottom line here is this. If Jesus had the power to forgive sin. then he had the power to pass it on, and if he had the power to pass it on then the apostles had the power to pass it on also. If you do not agree that it could not be passed on and the Priest does not have the Power then how can you say Jesus did then.

Again your scripture never adds up. Jesus never gave me a right to follow around sinners and observe what they do. Sure if someone is doing something they you do not agree with you should by all means not join in. But who named you judge. You are giving that name to yourself by feeling that you are obligated to observe and condemn others sin. I am sorry again it contradicts scripture.

And Mickey is right that scripture you quoted has to do with incest, not judgeing anothers sin. That scripture is telling you incest is wrong and do not have anything to do with it. It is not telling you to put yourself above others condemm them to hell. No one has that right but God.

 

[rinnie]

Again I am not picking up what you are laying down here.

In Sam Just because everything comes from God, does not mean how we react to it comes from God. If that were true then we would have no free will and what would be the reason for God to put us here or not. I mean if he controls us, then how can we become accountable. again does not lie up with scripture.

In Gal. Just because God called Paul to repent and gave Paul the grace to do his work, did not mean that God forced Paul to answer to this grace that Call God called him to. Granted God knew what Pauls answer would be because he again knows all. But God could have called Paul and Paul could have refused also.

What I hope I can stress to you is this. Tommow I do not know what Is in store for me. But God does. God may call me home tommorow. I do not know that. But God does. Just because God knows all does not mean my free will is taken from me. I may have a chance to sin in the next ten minutes. Will I. Only God knows. But just because he knows does not mean I will turn away from sin or fall into it. That will be my choice. I do not even know. But when the time comes I will have the call to make. If I do, I have fallen from grace, Have I lost salvation, Its up to me.

 

[Mickey]

I was always taught that I was not to worry about your sin. I have enough of my own to worry about.

Yes rinnie.

**Practice self-observation. And if you want to benefit yourself and your fellow men, look at your own faults and not those of others. The Lord tells us: “Judge not, that ye be not judged,” condemn not that ye be not condemned. And the Apostle Paul says: "Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? **
St. Arsenios of Paros

Jesus never gave me a right to follow around sinners and observe what they do.

Correct again.
We are not here to “follow someone around with a video camera”.