Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[PRmerger]

I see, I guess. I don’t see the Mass in the book of Revelation, though. Could you point me to it?

Here’s a great website that documents it

• Processional
  
  (presiding priest in liturgical garment), assisting ministers
  
  1:12-13
  1:6; 4:4; 4:9-10; 5:6, 8-9, 14
  
  Christ our High Priest in liturgical garment.
• Entrance Antiphon
  

     [4:8-11](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation4.htm#v8);  [5:9-14](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation5.htm#v9);  [7:10-12](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation7.htm#v10)          Antiphonal chant

• Priest reverences the altar, which represents the meeting place between man and God, by kissing the altar and with incense, if a High or Solemn Mass. He wears the appropriate vestments.
  
  Sanctuary/Tabernacle and presider’s chair
  
  Baptismal candle, Eucharistic candle, altar candles
  
  Congregation of the priesthood of believers/ the Church 6:9; 8:3-5; 9:13; 11:1; 14:18; 16:7
  1:8; 4:2-3, 9; 5:1-13;
  7:9-17; 19:4-9; 22:3-5
  
  5:8; 8:3-5
  
  1:12-13; 6:2, 11; 7:9, 14; 15:5-6; 19:8, 13-14
  
  4:2-3; 5:9, 11-12; 14:2-4; 15:3
  
  14:4-5
  
  11:19; 14:15; 15:5
  3:2; 4:2-10; 5:1-13; 6:16;
  7:9-17; 8:3; 12:5; 14:3-5;
  16:17; 19:4-5; 20:4, 11; 21:3, 5; 22:1; 22:3;
  1:13; 2:5; 4:5

 

[PRmerger]

cont’d

• Sign of the Cross and Greeting
  

     [7:3](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation7.htm#v3);  [14:1](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation14.htm#v1);  [22:4](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation22.htm#v4)          Sign of the Cross

(mark of the Lamb)

• The Rite of Blessing
  

     [1:3](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation1.htm#v3);  [14:13](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation14.htm#v13);  [16:15](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation16.htm#v15);  [19:9](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation19.htm#v9);   [20:6](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation20.htm#v6);  [22:7](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation22.htm#v7),  [14](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation22.htm#v14)         Blessing

• The Penitential Rite
  

      Chapters [2](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation2.htm)  and [3](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation3.htm)          Penitence

• The Gloria
• Opening Prayer
  

      [15:3-4](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation15.htm#v3)

  4:11 Gloria
  Opening Prayer Celebration of the Mass
  Liturgy of the Word Reference Verses in Revelation John’s Vision in Revelation Reading from the Word of God
• 1st Reading: Old Testament
• Responsorial Psalms
• 2nd Reading: New Testament
  

      [5:1-8](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation5.htm#v1);  [10:8](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation10.htm#v8);  [20:12](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation20.htm#v12)

  2:1 â€" 3:22
  
  1:7 (ref. Dan 7:13; Zc 12:10, 14
  
  12:1-2, 6, 13-14
  
  12:5
  
  12:13-17 Book or Scroll
  Messages from Christ

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s a verse about prayer and lifting up hands…

1Timothy 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting;

How about these verses?

Ps 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, And bless the LORD.
Ps 28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications When I cry to You, When I lift up my hands toward Your holy sanctuary.
Ps 63:4 Thus I will bless You while I live; I will lift up my hands in Your name.
Ps 141:2 Let my prayer be set before You as incense, The lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.
La 2:19 “Arise, cry out in the night, At the beginning of the watches; Pour out your heart like water before the face of the Lord. Lift your hands toward Him For the life of your young children, Who faint from hunger at the head of every street.”
La 3:41 Let us lift our hearts and hands To God in heaven.
Ps 26:6 ¶ I will wash my hands in innocence; So I will go about Your altar, O LORD,

So, according to your paradigm, if you are worshipping in your church service without raising your hands in prayer are you contradicting Scripture?

 

[guanophore]

This does not seem correct.

Many Protestants (myself included) would probably be willing to adopt the practice of infant baptism if there were anything in the Scriptures that could support such a rite.

However, we do not have even a single instance in all of the BIble, where a child is ever said to have been baptized. Therefore, the burden of proof is upon the one who practices that which the Scriptures do not support.

If the Lord has commanded us to baptize our babies, then I will obey his command. Only show me where I can find it.

yOU CAN FIND THE COMMANDoops in the Church He founded, which is Catholic.

You are starting from a false premise, it is that all the doctrines of the faith are included in scripture, or are stated explicitly. The Catholic Church produced the NT, and it was never intended to be a full compendium of the faith. Neither was it intended to be separated from the Church founded by Christ.

There is nothing in scripture that does not support infant baptism.

Since the Church has been baptizing infants since the days of the Apostles, the burden is upon modern American Evangelicals to show why this has been abandoned.

I will give you a hint.

It is intimately tied with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

 

[Dokimas]

Read it, its not hard to find.

I have and I didn’t.

 

[Dokimas]

So, according to your paradigm, if you are worshipping in your church service without raising your hands in prayer are you contradicting Scripture?

Here we go again. Could you point to where I said what you’re accusing me of saying?

Wasn’t it you who asked for Scriptures making fun of the idea that if it’s not in the Bible then don’t do it?

 

[guanophore]

In my opinion you are comparing apples and oranges.

Clearly, the significance of baptism was too high to be left to the whims of men.

I agree. That brings to bear the seriousness of consequences to those whose whims have abandoned infant baptism.

  Therefore baptism was divinely instituted by the Lord of glory, and therefore any alteration or addition to that which he hath spoken, is the highest contempt for his sovereign authority - see Proverbs 30:6!

I agree, which is why it is so curious that modern day evangelicals reject that which was spoken to the Apostles with regard to baptism.

And just so you know, the alter call is not a “protestant” practice,…

The point is that there are plenty of religious practices that are not found in the Bible.
It does not mean they are “wrong”.

As for Wednesday night bible study, this is a pattern and practice which is continually set forth in the Scriptures - see Acts 2:42-47; 17:11.

Are you seriously going to advocate that modern day ecclesial communites have bible study on Wed. evenings because they believe it is a scriptural practice?

 In fact, it is just *because* I am a protestant, that I reject any such use of artificial birth control, as do millions of protestants world-wide.

I am sure this is off topic in this thread, but I just want to note that the rejection of birth control has nothing to do with whether one is a Protestant or not.

It also makes absolutly no sense to claim that one would do so on the basis of being protestant.

Jesus taught the Apostles to baptize infants. They taught their disciples, and the Church has continued this Apostolic practice ever since.

 

[guanophore]

It’s right next to the verse that says the CC has the correct form of worship service (mass).

The difference here is that Catholics don’t claim that everything the Apsotles taught is in scripture. Yet, we have someone saying that the Apostles did not teach infant baptism because it is not found in scripture.

When you worship God do you do so sometimes with your hands raised?

Yes.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Richard Kastner,

I found your posts most interesting. But, I do need some clarifications…

Well, I don’t believe I asked you this rinnie. What I did was make a statement. “Being born again means accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior in Faith.”

I do not think that any Catholic rejects the idea of not only accepting Christ as his Lord and Savior - but, actually following Christ by carrying our cross on a daily basis. This is what you had in mind, Richard?

To tell a family secret … we thought that Christ was just pulling old Nicodemus’ leg with that bit about being born again with WATER and the Spirit. And then John goes and writes it down as though it were …er… Gospel! We also got quite a chuckle out of that Great Commission bit - probably more Divine Humor … with Him telling His Disciples to not only baptize - but to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit! Goodness, Christ obviously meant to say that all we need to do is just accept Him as our Lord and Savior and leave all this other written Scripture alone.

This statement is still true. A man is not born again through baptism.

Now, Richard Kastner, you know you are not going to get a pass on that - just what is your Scriptural reference?

He is born again through acceptance of Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Baptism is the outward sign of that acceptance. See what you are doing by requiring infants to be “baptised”. is that you are depriving them of the free will choice to become children of God.

Here is a question for you Richard … if you and your wife just had a baby (forgive the liberties I am taking here…) but decided not to name him/her because you wanted them to have the free will to claim you two as the parents - how would that sound? And, God forbid, you and wife were involved in a fatal auto crash … your name, and possesions would go to the state - because, obviously, this infant can not claim to be an heir - because he can not even speak to make any claim known! Note how parents are quick to make sure that infants are covered under their insurance policies - imagine those who actually believe Christ’s statements about he ABSOLUTE necessity for baptism. Yes, you would deny your own child the benefit of being not only recognized as yoru child but you benefit by claiming to be an heir. So, think about this when you are denying infants the right to become Children of God and Heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven.

God bless

Tom

When they get old enough you tell them that the reguirements of baptism have been fullfilled when they have not. And the candidate may never accept Jesus because of this false belief. This is the real tragedy of your false belief in salvation through baptism, instead of through the blood of Christ.

 

[c_martyr]

There’s over 40,000 different Protestant denominations

Prove it. :ehh: Can you give me a list of them? Or have you just bought into the biggest catholic fabrication ever?

And even if you can find anywhere close to a tenth of that number, there is an important clarification that needs to be made to your statement:

*Correction:

“There’s over 40,000 different [professing] Protestant denominations.”

I’ll take those verses to support a Wednesday night Bible study if you’ll take this to see the Blessed Mother’s Immaculate Conception:Luke 1:28

umm . . . I’m not seeing it. Can you please explain to me how I am supposed to believe that somehow Luke is there trying to communicate to his readers that Mary was born without the stain of original sin?

 

[rinnie]

Prove it. :ehh: Can you give me a list of them? Or have you just bought into the biggest catholic fabrication ever?

And even if you can find anywhere close to a tenth of that number, there is an important clarification that needs to be made to your statement:

*Correction:

“There’s over 40,000 different [professing] Protestant denominations.”

umm . . . I’m not seeing it. Can you please explain to me how I am supposed to believe that somehow Luke is there trying to communicate to his readers that Mary was born without the stain of original sin?

Oh no love they are most certainly Protestant’s. They are for sure Protesting the Catholic Church Thats what a Protestant is you know.

Okay now lets talk about the Blessed Mother for just a sec. Don’t want to derail thread so I will be quick.

Lets put it this way. Lets’s say for the sake of argument that the blessed Mother was not saved from original sin. Okay then we have a really HUGE problem. According to scripture the Savior of the world has to be completely FREE from any sin, in order to die for ours sins right? You with me. You know the spotless lamb. Thats Jesus.

Now if the Blessed Mother was born with the stain of Original Sin guess what. Jesus would have had to have it also. Then he could not have been the perfect lamb Of God now would he. We all inherit original sin from our parents.

Unless of course God saved that Parent from birth from Original Sin then we would also be born free from Sin like Jesus was.

So here is what my Man Luke here is trying to tell you. Jesus had to be completely free from sin in order to die for our sins. If his Mother had it he could not possibly be free from sin now could he So now we have a problem.

Either the Catholic Church is right and The Blessed Mother was saved from sin by God at the moment of her Birth. Or she was brought into this world with sin, and we know that Baptism is what saves us from original sin. Now how could Jesus have died for our sins and save us from Original Sin through Baptism if he was not the perfect and spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

So rather you like it or not, you are going to have to accept the teachings of the Church!

 

[rinnie]

I have and I didn’t.

Well its in there. Now what did you not find the book of Rev. or how the CC is heaven on earth.

And of course you don’t see the connection because you said you have never been to a mass.

Guess what you don’t even have to attend. Put on ewtn they have daily mass, You can do it in the confort of your own livng room and see the connection.

How about 14:4 Gotta admit kinda of reminds ya of a Roman Catholic Priest don’t it.

Boy don’t they take alot of abuse for doing only the work of Christ and not marrying. But you must admit they are not defied with women, they are virgins and these are the one swho follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They are ransomed as the firstfruits of human race for God and the Lamb. On their lips no deceit has been found, they are unblemished. Kinda brings an ole tear to the eyes does it not!

You can’t help but think of our Dear Pope and the Dear Bishops in communion with him doing Gods work. I would call that following the Lamb, how could you not.

Then my favorite part ON their lips are no deceit has been found they are unblemished kinda reminds you of the words of Jesus huh. I am with you always until the end of time. He who hears you hears me!! The Church can never fail in its teachings of faith and morals. Whats the word. Infallible isn’t it! You have to admit only the CC claims this.

Has a protestant church ever made that claim

 

[Answersplease]

List of Christian denominations:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm

Christianity Today - General Statistics and Facts of Christianity
By Mary Fairchild, About.com Guide
…

Number of Christian Denominations:
There are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries.

(Color added to highlight the original text.)

adherents.com/misc/WCE.html

…David B. Barrett…aeronautical engineer quit to train for the Church of England priesthood, expressing hope the church could make use of his mathematics expertise and pioneering computer work.

…adding a religion doctorate from Columbia University to his technical background, he has spent 40 years systematizing information on world religions,…

…details and his best estimated count of believers of all religions in each of 238 nations and territories.

Never has there been such a thorough reference as the…World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press.

Barrett has doggedly visited most of the lands in person, collecting raw material, including national census figures and United Nations data, and recruiting the 444 specialists who feed him material.
…

The 2001 edition…which took a decade to compile,…
…

Within Christianity, he counts 33,830 denominations.
…

The biggest Christian shift since the encyclopedia’s first edition is the emergence of the 386 million “independents” as the second biggest category, after the 1 billion Roman Catholics.
…

Barrett thinks their growth could prove as important as the 16th-century rise of the Protestants, who now rank third with 342 million. Orthodox number 215 million; Anglicans, 80 million.
…

 

[Dokimas]

Well its in there. Now what did you not find the book of Rev. or how the CC is heaven on earth.

And of course you don’t see the connection because you said you have never been to a mass.

Guess what you don’t even have to attend. Put on ewtn they have daily mass, You can do it in the confort of your own livng room and see the connection.

How about 14:4 Gotta admit kinda of reminds ya of a Roman Catholic Priest don’t it.

Boy don’t they take alot of abuse for doing only the work of Christ and not marrying. But you must admit they are not defied with women, they are virgins and these are the one swho follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They are ransomed as the firstfruits of human race for God and the Lamb. On their lips no deceit has been found, they are unblemished. Kinda brings an ole tear to the eyes does it not!

You can’t help but think of our Dear Pope and the Dear Bishops in communion with him doing Gods work. I would call that following the Lamb, how could you not.

Then my favorite part ON their lips are no deceit has been found they are unblemished kinda reminds you of the words of Jesus huh. I am with you always until the end of time. He who hears you hears me!! The Church can never fail in its teachings of faith and morals. Whats the word. Infallible isn’t it! You have to admit only the CC claims this.

Has a protestant church ever made that claim

Thanks.

 

[PRmerger]

Prove it. :ehh: Can you give me a list of them? Or have you just bought into the biggest catholic fabrication ever?

Oh, cm, I am very, very open to using a different figure. Heck, I’ll use 400 if you’ll cite a reputable source that says it’s 400.

YOU give me the number of Protestant denominations that you think actually exist–and provide me with the source from whence this statistic came–and I’ll consider using it.

Until then, I’ll use the number 40.000 until you tell me what number I should use (and, of course, give the source! )

 

[rinnie]

Oh, cm, I am very, very open to using a different figure. Heck, I’ll use 400 if you’ll cite a reputable source that says it’s 400.

YOU give me the number of Protestant denominations that you think actually exist–and provide me with the source from whence this statistic came–and I’ll consider using it.

Until then, I’ll use the number 40.000 until you tell me what number I should use (and, of course, give the source! )

But even 1 is too many. We all need to become One In Christ the way he wanted it.

 

[PRmerger]

But even 1 is too many. We all need to become One In Christ the way he wanted it.

'zactly, rinnie, exactly!

One would think that if all one needs is the Bible, there would be a common understanding about all those things I listed earlier. All would simply read the Scriptures and have the same doctrines.

Instead, we have chaos and confusion regarding:
-Baptism: is it an ordinance or sacrament? Do we baptize infants or adults? In a river, by immersion or sprinkling? In Jesus’ name or using the Trinitarian formula?

Why all this confusion regarding one simple issue, if all one needs is the Bible?

 

[PRmerger]

-Wasn’t it you who asked for Scriptures making fun of the idea that if it’s not in the Bible then don’t do it?

No. I wasn’t “making fun” of the idea that if it’s not in the Bible then don’t do it. I’m sad that you would use that term to describe my posts.

I forgot that you had said that actually have no problem with rituals that allegedly aren’t
Scriptural–you just don’t want them to contradict Scripture.

 

[LBKat]

John 3:5

The interpretation which I have been consistently taught, as a Baptist–and it makes perfect sense–is this:

Being born of “water” refers to physical birth–not baptism. Makes sense scientifically (the water of the uterus and placenta) and also makes sense as in contrast to spiritual birth–especially in context with verse 6 and also with Christ telling Nicodemus that he “must be born again.”

I find this to be the most valid contextually.

Another protestant view of this verse (taken from the ESV study Bible) is this: John 3:3–6 This discussion of the need for spiritual rebirth further develops the earlier reference to the “children of God” who are “born of God” (1:12–13; cf. 8:39–58; 11:51–52). The phrase born of water and the Spirit in 3:5 refers to spiritual birth, which cleanses from sin and brings spiritual transformation and renewal. Water here does not refer to the water of physical birth, nor is it likely that it refers to baptism. The background is probably Ezek. 36:25–27, where God promises, “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean. . . . And I will give you a new heart. . . . And I will put my Spirit within you.”

 

[LBKat]

Many Protestant denominations are distinctive by minor doctrinal differences, such as church polity or dispensation–rather than the gospel. These denominations gladly affirm that those of the other denominations are Christian Brothers because of the shared common gospel–but locally they hold different doctrinal views. The separation between them isn’t a rift in fellowship but rather a different interpretation or application of doctrine, often held in humble mutual respect for the other.