Why do some non-cathloics not have Baptism for infants

[PRmerger]

What happens to Hindu babies that die? Where do they go?

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism. (CCC 1261)

What does your pastor teach about Hindu babies that die?

 

[PRmerger]

Basically, yes (on the first point). You are still incorrect, but consistent, on the Matthew 1:25 point.

Can you tell me what, in the context of Matt 1, tells you that Mary and Joseph had relations after Jesus was born? Just from the context–that is, from the other words in that chapter, ok?

 

[PRmerger]

Basically, yes (on the first point). You are still incorrect, but consistent, on the Matthew 1:25 point.

And what happens to say, a 10 year old, past the age of reason, who dies that has not accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior?

 

[Dokimas]

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism. (CCC 1261)

What does your pastor teach about Hindu babies that die?

The Bible seems to teach ALL infants that die are in the hands of God. Seems you have a hard time that God’s grace and mercy extends to ALL infants WITHOUT baptism because He will NOT reject any infant. That’s very consistant with the teaching of Jesus.

 

[Dokimas]

Can you tell me what, in the context of Matt 1, tells you that Mary and Joseph had relations after Jesus was born? Just from the context–that is, from the other words in that chapter, ok?

Change the names of the Matthew passage. Take out of the story the virgin birth. What would you conclude?

Ex. Sue is pregnant with one man’s baby. The man is not in her life. Bob falls in love with her and marries her while she is still pregnant. Bob does not have sex with Sue until Sue delivers her baby.

Matthew 1:

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and **did not know her **till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

 

[Dokimas]

And what happens to say, a 10 year old, past the age of reason, who dies that has not accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior?

You are willing to trust a Hindu baby to the mercy, grace and love of God but you won’t let me let God be God for everyone. He knows all hearts and knows what we truly believe and understand.

IMO, infant baptism plays God in their lives. Let’s let God be God. Let’s get out of His way. He is able; we make messes of His plan.

 

[PRmerger]

Change the names of the Matthew passage. Take out of the story the virgin birth. What would you conclude?

Well, given the context of the entire Scriptures, I would say all that it means is that Joseph did not have relations with Mary before Jesus was born.

The CONTEXT of Scripture tells us nothing about what happened after.

I think with your example of Sue it shows that you’re clearly attaching a modern understanding of the word “until” to the passage to conclude that Joseph and Mary had relations. Not using context at all.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The Bible seems to teach ALL infants that die are in the hands of God. Seems you have a hard time that God’s grace and mercy extends to ALL infants WITHOUT baptism because He will NOT reject any infant. That’s very consistant with the teaching of Jesus.

The answer is we don’t know D. It may seem to you that the Bible teaches what you believe but you are not certain. The truth is that God owes it to no one to save them, even infants. A person may look at that and, on the surface, it may seem that it is unfair but the human ideal of fairness does not match divine justice. We are sinners. We trust in the mercy and love of God with infants who die before baptism but, like you, we do not know.

God bless you

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible seems to teach ALL infants that die are in the hands of God.

I don’t disagree with you that all infants that die are in the hands of God; I’m just not certain where the Bible says this. Can you tell me what chapter and verse?

Seems you have a hard time that God’s grace and mercy extends to ALL infants WITHOUT baptism because He will NOT reject any infant.

What??? I absolutely DO NOT have a hard time with God’s grace and mercy extending to ALL infants without baptism. That’s part of the teaching of the CC.

Why would you even say that after what I just posted?

 

[dyluck]

So are you saying that every single human being is saved until the age of reason? Then, he must decide if he accepts Jesus or else he is not saved?

(Note: I am using “until” here in our modern understanding, not in the Biblical depiction, as it was used in Matthew 1:25 )

I have to agree wiht PR on this one in a sense.

The “age of understanding” herasy is dangerous VERY dangerous. It takes the word of God and turns it into lies. Specificatlly for the following brief points.

Everyone is concieved in sin and are born in a fallen, God hating, state
God choses his children
The bible implicitidly says that NO ONE can come to the father except through Christ. (doesn’t say No one except babies anywhere).

Therefore it is much safer to say that only some babies are saved be-it the faith of the parents covering the family and the greater fact that God chooses to quicken on His own time and term. The rest, well sorry, God already chose the family they will be in and the place they will live. Clearly in areas where the Gospel has not yet reached. I’m sorry for those who may have lost little ones. Its up to God. Fact is fact and not all babies are saved, in fact few are saved speaking in biblical terms.

God does curse generations and God does choose where they will go and live we have no control over who lives or dies be it God alone.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

IMO, infant baptism plays God in their lives. Let’s let God be God. Let’s get out of His way. He is able; we make messes of His plan.

Should we get out of His way in other endeavors as well. Namely evangelization?

God bless you

 

[Dokimas]

Well, given the context of the entire Scriptures, I would say all that it means is that Joseph did not have relations with Mary before Jesus was born.

The CONTEXT of Scripture tells us nothing about what happened after.

I think with your example of Sue it shows that you’re clearly attaching a modern understanding of the word “until” to the passage to conclude that Joseph and Mary had relations. Not using context at all.

That’s your opinion; we disagree. Things haven’t changed. Why are we continuing this? For those looking on? Why???

 

[PRmerger]

You are willing to trust a Hindu baby to the mercy, grace and love of God but you won’t let me let God be God for everyone. He knows all hearts and knows what we truly believe and understand.

That’s very Catholic of you to say that, Dokimas.

IMO, infant baptism plays God in their lives.

I don’t know what this means.

 

[Dokimas]

Should we get out of His way in other endeavors as well. Namely evangelization?

God bless you

Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

We are commanded to evangelize. Jesus does NOT commanded to baptize infants. HUGE difference; compare apples with apples not with pears.

 

[dyluck]

Should we get out of His way in other endeavors as well. Namely evangelization?

God bless you

Well we are ceritanly commanded to evangelize and spread the good news. But the word says “the rocks will cry out”. So if everyone shut their mouths, the rocks will cry out!

Dokimas has a point that there is God playing in baby baptism. It is the assumption that baptising the baby “surprises” God and, somehow, appeasing His justice over the babies fallen state.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That’s your opinion; we disagree. Things haven’t changed. Why are we continuing this? For those looking on? Why???

Where should we go from here D? What does the Bible say?

But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Matt 18:16-17

God bless you

 

[Dokimas]

That’s very Catholic of you to say that, Dokimas.

I don’t know what this means.

What it means is that if God has mercy, grace and love for infants and will do what’s right for them, we take over for God to make sure God will be merciful, gracious and loving to infants by baptizing them.

 

[Dokimas]

Where should we go from here D? What does the Bible say?

God bless you

I have no clue how to answer you or why you are asking me. If you want to answer my question, great. I have no answer for yours.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

We are commanded to evangelize. Jesus does NOT commanded to baptize infants. HUGE difference; compare apples with apples not with pears.

But really D, I mean, like you said, we just make a mess of things.

Christ also said to let the Children come to him and do not hinder them. In Catholicism, not baptizing an infant could do just that, but you want us to, “get out of His way”.

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I have no clue how to answer you or why you are asking me. If you want to answer my question, great. I have no answer for yours.

I expected that D. BTW D you seem very defensive today. Bad day?

God bless you