Why do some (not all) Protestants ignore these verses?

[Mannyfit75]

But those who believe in Sola Fide do put their faiths in action, do they not?

They do. So they don’t really don’t go by faith alone…kinda strange I think… Protestantism doctrine of Sola Fidelis is very strange indeed.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have to question, respectfully Manny, your interpretation of these verses as directly talking about salvation.
Every church talks about works or deeds. They may not always relate it to salvation but they certainly talk about it.
I must also say I have probably been to quite a few more Protestant sermons than yourself and can speak from experience. There is not a branch of Protestantism that I have not visited with friends or read about.
It you believe all these verses are tied to a concept of salvation, you should approach it from that angle.

I should but I need time to think to prove my case. That means long posts…

 

[Metaron]

But those who believe in Sola Fide do put their faiths in action, do they not?

Some do, some don’t. Just like some Catholics do, and some don’t. The whole argumentation between Catholics and Protestants about this issue is blown completely out of perportion. They are actually the same view, except that Sola Fide is kind of an exaggeration on the part of Faith alone. My buddy living with his girlfriend he isn’t married to has faith alone. I still pray for him though…

 

[Publisher]

In the time I have been on this fourm, I have seen Catholics and Protestants “go at each other” over and over…sometimes way too viscious for my taste.

IMO, Catholics “latch onto a phrase”, bolstered by a “misconception” of what and how Protestants think…the same with Protestants…they “latch onto a phrase” coupled by a misconception on Catholic belief and before you know it they are “speaking past one another”…just read any “once saved always saved” thread…Catholics lump ALL Protestants in to it…always use words like “they”, “them”…same with Protestants on the “communion of saints”…if Protestants would “listen” to Catholics explanation and if Protestants had a better understanding of some Latin words which have different meaning in Latin but are translated “worship” into English…when “veneration” would be a better word…understanding may occur…but accusation from both camps are slung back and forth…and before you know it…no one is listening…just talking…or accusing…or screaming…and any “truth” that may be spoken cannot be heard above the “noise.”

 

[dparker]

In the time I have been on this fourm, I have seen Catholics and Protestants “go at each other” over and over…sometimes way too viscious for my taste.

IMO, Catholics “latch onto a phrase”, bolstered by a “misconception” of what and how Protestants think…the same with Protestants…they “latch onto a phrase” coupled by a misconception on Catholic belief and before you know it they are “speaking past one another”…just read any “once saved always saved” thread…Catholics lump ALL Protestants in to it…always use words like “they”, “them”…same with Protestants on the “communion of saints”…if Protestants would “listen” to Catholics explanation and if Protestants had a better understanding of some Latin words which have different meaning in Latin but are translated “worship” into English…when “veneration” would be a better word…understanding may occur…but accusation from both camps are slung back and forth…and before you know it…no one is listening…just talking…or accusing…or screaming…and any “truth” that may be spoken cannot be heard above the “noise.”

Excellent post!

Reminds me of when I was a kid. Whole extended family was Church of the Nazarene. We grew up being told that the Baptists believed ‘once saved, always saved’ and of course we, as Holiness Arminian Wesleyans had the full truth on that subject. “Those Baptists just think they can live anyway they want and commit any sin and they think they will still get to heaven…” They were viewed as libertines (actually funny, when you think about it…) and we Holiness folks knew the truth that salvation was a delicate fragile thing that could be lost at any moment if we ‘backslid’. ‘Backslid’ being defined as smoking, drinking, movies, dancing, cussing, etc.

As I grew older I realized we were completely wrong on all counts.

 

[Mannyfit75]

In the time I have been on this fourm, I have seen Catholics and Protestants “go at each other” over and over…sometimes way too viscious for my taste.

IMO, Catholics “latch onto a phrase”, bolstered by a “misconception” of what and how Protestants think…the same with Protestants…they “latch onto a phrase” coupled by a misconception on Catholic belief and before you know it they are “speaking past one another”…just read any “once saved always saved” thread…**Catholics lump ALL Protestants **in to it…always use words like “they”, “them”…same with Protestants on the “communion of saints”…if Protestants would “listen” to Catholics explanation and if Protestants had a better understanding of some Latin words which have different meaning in Latin but are translated “worship” into English…when “veneration” would be a better word…understanding may occur…but accusation from both camps are slung back and forth…and before you know it…no one is listening…just talking…or accusing…or screaming…and any “truth” that may be spoken cannot be heard above the “noise.”

If you read the original OP, it said, some (not all). So where is the claim in this thread that we Catholic lump all Protestants together?

If indeed this were the case, I would have not written “some” (not all) Protestant… I think you should read the context more deeply before you come up with false conclusions.

 

[Ilroy]

Well, technically, we are saved by faith. But it is dynamic, faith-in-action (of which works are proof) and not the passive easy-believism faith of Sola Fide.

Not exactly correct either.
We are saved by God’s free gift of Grace alone. Our Faith and our Good Works are our necessary response to that Grace. They are basically us accepting the gift and then living the gift.

The verses that Manny is quoting are basically pointing out that faith alone is incorrect.

Might want to add 1 Cor. Ch 13 to the mix.

 

[SolaFide]

This is base off why do Catholic ignore these verses but its asking Protestants why do they ignore the following verses:

1. Gospel of St. Matthew (5:3-10)
2. Gospel of St. Matthew 25:31-45.
3. Gospel of John 20:21-25
4. James 2:1-26.

I know there are other Scriptural verses that are ignore. I’m sure my fellow Catholics will find them. Note I did put some (not all)…

We don’t ignore them. They’re in our Bible too and we read them often. I’m sure you have an agenda and a point here Manny so why not just tell us how we “allegedly” ignore them?

 

[Mannyfit75]

We don’t ignore them. They’re in our Bible too and we read them often. I’m sure you have an agenda and a point here Manny so why not just tell us how we “allegedly” ignore them?

Wouldn’t they contradict Faith Alone, because since no work can save you, only through faith. Are these not deeds or works?

 

[Publisher]

If you read the original OP, it said, some (not all). So where is the claim in this thread that we Catholic lump all Protestants together?

If indeed this were the case, I would have not written “some” (not all) Protestant… I think you should read the context more deeply before you come up with false conclusions.

You of course are right Manny…you have my humble and heart felt apology…of course…we only should respond to “this thread”…any other thread has no bearing on what is being discussed here.

Forgive my faus paux.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You of course are right Manny…you have my humble and heart felt apology…of course…we only should respond to “this thread”…any other thread has no bearing on what is being discussed here.

Forgive my faus paux.

You are forgiven

 

[SyCarl]

I think that the goats in Matthew 25 are believers who had a chance to do good works but didn’t. The sheep are believers who had a chance to do good works and did them. I say this because both groups refer to Jesus as Lord and Jesus accuses the goats because they didn’t do something when they had the chance. The sheep have proved that they have true faith by doing the works while the goats show they haven’t got true faith.

I don’t think it is meant to be a full picture of the final judgement. One reason for this is quite simple. Where are the infants who have not had the opportunity to do either bad or good works?

I don’t really think that any mainline Protestant church denies that we should have good works. The question is whether they merit anything. In Luke 17:9-10 Jesus says:

“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.”"

I think it can be said for those who have the chance, that good works do not result in justification but no one is justified without them.

Protestants are afraid of taking any of God’s glory by saying that their works merit anything.

I think that if you are doing good works because you want salvation, you are doing them for the wrong reason. We should be doing good works because we love God and love our neighbour. If we do them to try to merit or gain salavation you are doing them for the wrong reason. You are essentially saying that at least one reason I am doing these things is because I want salvation. The words I want should have no place in what we do since they involve a motive of self-interest rather than love for others.

Additionally we should not do them to avoid damnation because again we would be doing them out of self-interest and not love. In my opinion it is an even worse reason as it says I am doing this because I am afraid of God. In 1 John 4 we are told that perfect love does not involve fear, because fear involves punishment. So if we fear we do from fear, it is not fully from the love that should motivate them.

It may be difficult not to do things without considering self-interest as at least a partial motive but I think that is what we must try to do.

I hope this is not off topic. Is not intended to be.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Some do, some don’t. Just like some Catholics do, and some don’t. The whole argumentation between Catholics and Protestants about this issue is blown completely out of perportion. They are actually the same view, except that Sola Fide is kind of an exaggeration on the part of Faith alone.

I totally agree. In practice its really the same thing but blown out of proportion when discussed on a theoretical level.

 

[mozart-250]

This is base off why do Catholic ignore these verses but its asking Protestants why do they ignore the following verses:

1. Gospel of St. Matthew (5:3-10)
2. Gospel of St. Matthew 25:31-45.
3. Gospel of John 20:21-25
4. James 2:1-26.

I know there are other Scriptural verses that are ignore. I’m sure my fellow Catholics will find them. Note I did put some (not all)…

Umm…just because somebody has a different interpretation of a passage of Scripture than I may have, it does not necessarily follow that this person is ignoring that passage of Scripture.

Under the same reasoning as applied here, one might ask why do Catholics ignore Ephesians 2:10, John 10:29, and Matthew 23:9.

 

[Metaron]

Not exactly correct either.
We are saved by God’s free gift of Grace alone. Our Faith and our Good Works are our necessary response to that Grace. They are basically us accepting the gift and then living the gift.

The verses that Manny is quoting are basically pointing out that faith alone is incorrect.

Might want to add 1 Cor. Ch 13 to the mix.

Yes, I know what you mean. I wasn’t delving in the *Grace Alone *aspect, which Protestants and Catholics both agree on.

 

[Metaron]

Umm…just because somebody has a different interpretation of a passage of Scripture than I may have, it does not necessarily follow that this person is ignoring that passage of Scripture.

Under the same reasoning as applied here, one might ask why do Catholics ignore Ephesians 2:10, John 10:29, and Matthew 23:9.

Read my above posts, please. They may be on the previous page.

 

[TMC]

I think that if you are doing good works because you want salvation, you are doing them for the wrong reason. We should be doing good works because we love God and love our neighbour. If we do them to try to merit or gain salavation you are doing them for the wrong reason. You are essentially saying that at least one reason I am doing these things is because I want salvation. The words I want should have no place in what we do since they involve a motive of self-interest rather than love for others.

Additionally **we should not do them to avoid damnation **because again we would be doing them out of self-interest and not love. In my opinion it is an even worse reason as it says I am doing this because I am afraid of God. In 1 John 4 we are told that perfect love does not involve fear, because fear involves punishment. So if we fear we do from fear, it is not fully from the love that should motivate them.

It may be difficult not to do things without considering self-interest as at least a partial motive but I think that is what we must try to do.

I think these are important points and well said. (bolding in quote is mine).

 

[Mannyfit75]

Umm…just because somebody has a different interpretation of a passage of Scripture than I may have, it does not necessarily follow that this person is ignoring that passage of Scripture.

Under the same reasoning as applied here, one might ask why do Catholics ignore Ephesians 2:10, John 10:29, and Matthew 23:9.

We don’t ignore those passages… some do ignore it…

 

[mozart-250]

Read my above posts, please. They may be on the previous page.

Yup.

Actually I don’t disagree with you. I actually agree with this quote with one quibble:

Well, technically, we are saved by faith. But it is dynamic, faith-in-action (of which works are proof) and not the passive easy-believism faith of Sola Fide.

Logic comment (which I am allowing for myself under my new self-imposed restrictions) Sola Fide is just a title. Since it does not have a verb, the phrase means nothing in itself.

Therefore you have have examine what those who profess “Sola Fide” actually believe before you can conclude that it is passive, easy-believism faith.

I have always thought that “Living Faith Alone” would be a better title, but that is just me. Arguing titles is silly.

 

[mozart-250]

We don’t ignore those passages… some do ignore it…

I obviously did not express myself very well.

I was commenting on the logic of the phrase “ignore these verses”. I was responding with an reverse analogy to demonstrate that this phrase really does not work.

I think I will cut out of this thread now.