Why do some people prefer to be atheists?

[ThinkingSapien]

. So, a lot of people either don’t associate with a religion at all, or tell everyone they’re atheist and keep their faith at home.

There’s a lot of labels that people use that are not associated with any organized religion. Various flavors of “spiritual” come to mind among others. Note that being disassociate with religion doesn’t mean no longer claiming a god/God.

I spoke to a young woman yesterday. She had been raised under Islam until her mother decided to divorce her father. That’s when the mother told her children “I’m getting divorced. Now you have to be Christian.” At this point in her life she still carries some cultural habits from Islam but considers herself neither Christian nor Muslim but still holds a concept of God.

 

[dedo]

This is an interesting thread. I have had numerous conversations with atheists on a science forum.

From these conversations, I believe that atheism is one of several manifestations of a “closed heart” to God. Usually, this state comes from some worldly influence. I would say for most atheists, the worldly influence is pride.

The atheists I have debated are quite intelligent. However, they commonly make far reaching pronouncements about disciplines that they know next to nothing about. For example, in one debate, several atheists proclaimed that theists, including myself and 80% of the world who are believers, must be delusional and mentally ill. Not one of these atheists had any experience in treating people with mental disorders. At most a couple might have taken one or two undergraduate psyc courses. The fact that I had responded to 6-7 consults from a psychiatrist the previous week, and had extensive training and experience dealing with people with mental disorders of course meant nothing to the atheists. They still felt completely qualified to diagnose the whole world as insane, without having treated a single patient in their collective lives. That is pure arrogance.

Furthermore, atheists commonly respond to issues with black and white or dichotomous thinking. Many of their arguments go something like: “Bad things in the Old Testament are inconsistent with a good God, therefore there is no God”. You see this kind of thinking in people under other worldly influences including food addiction, alcohol addiction, and predisposition to violence. In the world view of people under these influences, much of the world becomes a “true / false” test, when there are numerous possibilities. Again, this is more evidence that atheists are under the influence of something.

Nevertheless, the condition seems to be reversible based on the testimony of numerous former atheists on forums such as this.

 

[aclausen]

This is an interesting thread. I have had numerous conversations with atheists on a science forum.

From these conversations, I believe that atheism is one of several manifestations of a “closed heart” to God. Usually, this state comes from some worldly influence. I would say for most atheists, the worldly influence is pride.

You assert that atheists suffer from pride and then claim:

The atheists I have debated are quite intelligent. However, they commonly make far reaching pronouncements about disciplines that they know next to nothing about. For example, in one debate, several atheists proclaimed that theists, including myself and 80% of the world who are believers, must be delusional and mentally ill. Not one of these atheists had any experience in treating people with mental disorders. At most a couple might have taken one or two undergraduate psyc courses. The fact that I had responded to 6-7 consults from a psychiatrist the previous week, and had extensive training and experience dealing with people with mental disorders of course meant nothing to the atheists. They still felt completely qualified to diagnose the whole world as insane, without having treated a single patient in their collective lives. That is pure arrogance.

Isn’t this just a variation on what you’ve stated atheists do?

Furthermore, atheists commonly respond to issues with black and white or dichotomous thinking. Many of their arguments go something like: “Bad things in the Old Testament are inconsistent with a good God, therefore there is no God”. You see this kind of thinking in people under other worldly influences including food addiction, alcohol addiction, and predisposition to violence. In the world view of people under these influences, much of the world becomes a “true / false” test, when there are numerous possibilities. Again, this is more evidence that atheists are under the influence of something.

And theists don’t do the same thing. Just reading this particular topic alone I’ve seen people proclaiming that atheists must somehow be lawless and inherently immoral. I’ve seen posters here and elsewhere claim that atheists are somehow actively rebelling, or are immature, and so on.

The obvious intense fear and dislike of atheists leaks through on these forums with great frequency. A whole group of people who share nothing more than a lack of belief in gods are painted with this wide brush; that they are misanthropes who just hate religious people.

I think a lot of people, Christian and otherwise, should take heed of Matthew 7:5 before they go around making grand declarations about each other.

Nevertheless, the condition seems to be reversible based on the testimony of numerous former atheists on forums such as this.

So now my atheism is a “condition”. And yet you take such offense to someone saying “all religious people are mentally ill”…

And for the record, I as an atheist do not believe all religious people are mentally ill, any more than I believe all atheists are the very picture of mental health.

 

[zyzz]

And for the record, I as an atheist do not believe all religious people are mentally ill, any more than I believe all atheists are the very picture of mental health.

I want to add my support to this remark. It would be extremely foolish and incorrect to say ANYTHING sweeping about people who only share one thing: either believe in some deity, or not.

People who are religious are EXACTLY as rational as the atheists in EVERY part of the secular life. An auto mechanic or a doctor or an investment consultant will function exactly the same way in the everyday life, whether they are religious or not. Even very deeply religious car drivers will never close their eyes and “trust” God to lead them to their destination, no matter how much “trust” they profess when it comes to “trust” God. Maybe they utter a quick prayer, but apart from that they function exactly like everyone else.

Now it is true that when it comes to talk about their OWN religion, the picture is not uniform. There are many believers who will “check in” their rationality into the cloak room before entering into their own place of worship. Of course when it comes to other religions, they are exactly as skeptical as any other atheist. So even in the case of considering their own “god”, there is no uniform paintbrush that can be used to describe ALL the believers.

What I can say is that SOME people are extremely irrational when it comes to their own particular religion. They will never accept a “contradiction”, it will always become a “mystery”. Their own god will always considered to be “good”, whether that god ACTS in a loving fashion or not. But the same kind of irrationality can be said when it comes to SOME atheists. It would be nice to stop making such sweeping statements about those you might disagree with. Concentrate on the particular and stay away from the general.

 

[meltzerboy]

I want to add my support to this remark. It would be extremely foolish and incorrect to say ANYTHING sweeping about people who only share one thing: either believe in some deity, or not.

People who are religious are EXACTLY as rational as the atheists in EVERY part of the secular life. An auto mechanic or a doctor or an investment consultant will function exactly the same way in the everyday life, whether they are religious or not. Even very deeply religious car drivers will never close their eyes and “trust” God to lead them to their destination, no matter how much “trust” they profess when it comes to “trust” God. Maybe they utter a quick prayer, but apart from that they function exactly like everyone else.

Now it is true that when it comes to talk about their OWN religion, the picture is not uniform. There are many believers who will “check in” their rationality into the cloak room before entering into their own place of worship. Of course when it comes to other religions, they are exactly as skeptical as any other atheist. So even in the case of considering their own “god”, there is no uniform paintbrush that can be used to describe ALL the believers.

What I can say is that SOME people are extremely irrational when it comes to their own particular religion. They will never accept a “contradiction”, it will always become a “mystery”. Their own god will always considered to be “good”, whether that god ACTS in a loving fashion or not. But the same kind of irrationality can be said when it comes to SOME atheists. It would be nice to stop making such sweeping statements about those you might disagree with. Concentrate on the particular and stay away from the general.

If believers are really honest, I think, they will have to admit there is a certain degree of irrationality about believing in G-d (or gods), particularly the way in which G-d is often defined. What rational explanation can account for such a perfect Being? That is why “mystery” is used in the description and comprehension of G-d. IOW, the rational human mind alone cannot conceive of such a Being as real. At the same time, the idea that there might just possibly be no G-d is so painful and frightening to many, that they cannot conceive of this either in a rational sense. This is the point where faith does and must take over for belief to be maintained.

 

[rose_kelly]

Atheists (like Christians) can be rather sensitive to criticism at times.

 

[aclausen]

Atheists (like Christians) can be rather sensitive to criticism at times.

I think anyone whose views are misrepresented, who are basically referred to as immoral or unhinged, whose justifications are dismissed with a wave of the hand, or used as a sort of whipping boy for people who seem to be trying to prop themselves up will tend to get a little sensitive.

I’ve been reading these forums for quite a while as a lurker, and while there are some very intelligent people here, there are some posters who just make my jaw drop. I suppose I should expect anti-atheist biases, and that’s fine, but some of the posts here don’t betray bias so much as naked bigotry.

 

[Ontheway]

If believers are really honest, I think, they will have to admit there is a certain degree of irrationality about believing in G-d (or gods), particularly the way in which G-d is often defined. What rational explanation can account for such a perfect Being? That is why “mystery” is used in the description and comprehension of G-d. IOW, the rational human mind alone cannot conceive of such a Being as real. At the same time, the idea that there might just possibly be no G-d is so painful and frightening to many, that they cannot conceive of this either in a rational sense. This is the point where faith does and must take over for belief to be maintained.

Setting aside for a moment the matter of how God is defined, my question would be - how can a rational human being conceive of Being itself, perfect of otherwise.

There are just a few things that can not be explained rationally. God is among them.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Setting aside for a moment the matter of how God is defined, my question would be - how can a rational human being conceive of Being itself, perfect of otherwise.

There are just a few things that can not be explained rationally. God is among them.

So … belief in the inconceivable? Don’t that automatically exclude those who aren’t naturally predisposed to believe in any higher power?

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Jel, you don’t have to convert or deconvert anyone. That’s not your job. Your job is to live your life as you see fit.

I appreciate this my good Bradski, but I have a quiet influence simply by way of choosing my level of participation…

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Hi Jelrak,

I don’t mean to be presumptuous, but here is a suggestion. Today is Sunday. Take your wife and kids and go to church. If they are believers, they will go willingly. You…will be making a sacrifice, for their sake.
Why make this sacrifice? Love.

I apologize for being unable to receive your PM. I was apparently detained for an infraction brought about by a bit of misplaced humor, which naturally eliminated access to my messages…

So while I was endeavoring to sacrifice my time this past Sunday I was equally blocked from participating in further discussions here…a message from God perhaps…?

 

[tonyrey]

So … belief in the inconceivable? Don’t that automatically exclude those who aren’t naturally predisposed to believe in any higher power?

Being “naturally predisposed” isn’t a good reason for rejecting anything!

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Being “naturally predisposed” isn’t a good reason for rejecting anything!

But it’s defines a starting point for each of us.

 

[aclausen]

You have to ask them most atheists I’ve talked to don’t have a correct understanding of what or who God is. I love when they say it is the burden of the proof in the theist to prove God exists actually the opposite is true it is the burden of proof of the atheist to prove that God doesn’t exist since he is the one making the assertion

You have the burden of proof backwards. The one making the assertion is supposed to demonstrate the existence of the statement, otherwise the null hypothesis applies.

Let’s put this in perspective by invoking some lesser god. Let’s say I make the claim that Zeus exists, and insist that I know this to be true because without him, how could there lightning, would you just grant me that my statement was true?

You may feel that it makes perfect sense to you that God exists, just as my lack of belief in said deity makes sense to me. But on empirical grounds, the problem with atheism is you could not actually ever falsify the existence of God, simply because the God invoked in the Judaeo-Christian tradition has attributes that make its existence compatible with all possible observations. There is absolutely no way to disprove the existence of God.

 

[tonyrey]

Being “naturally predisposed” isn’t a good reason for rejecting anything!

Our starting point is our ability to think for ourselves. Otherwise what we believe would be the result of factors beyond our control and we would all be irrational!

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Our starting point is our ability to think for ourselves. Otherwise what we believe would be the result of factors beyond our control and we would all be irrational!

But isn’t that the state of things, especially wrt religion. Most people continue to believe the religion and often the denomination they were taught to believe as children.

A great many things beyond our control influence us.

 

[dedo]

It baffles me that you’d think someone is an Atheist because of a “closed heart” and/or pride.

How does someone “close their heart” to a God?
There are many who try with all their heart to believe, but do not and cannot.
.

Good Question. i don’t know how the atheists I have debated got to that point. I was just stating an observation. I believe the “closed heart” state can also occur in believers. During a discussion of this with a priest about violent religious extremists, the priest suggested that the extremist creates his / her own vision of God, and acts on the vision. Thus, instead of letting God in, the extremist keeps God out – boxed into a distorted vision that does not evolve.
Of course we know from the history of the 20th Century, that people who chose to separate themselves from God committed the worst genocides in history, when they obtained power.

And funnily enough, some Atheists observe that many Theists are believers out of pride–proud that they will be the ones (they believe) who are saved; proud that their religion (they believe) is the correct one; proud that they belong to a group that accepts them; proud that they’ve been given a list of rules that they follow dutifully like good children, etc, etc.

.

That is correct and it would be another example of a “closed heart”. The believer who acts as you describe is emulating and acting on a distorted image of God like the religious extremist in my opinion.

 

[aclausen]

Of course we know from the history of the 20th Century, that people who chose to separate themselves from God committed the worst genocides in history, when they obtained power.

.

The first genocide of the 20th century was committed by a Muslim state and if you want to talk about the Nazis, whatever Hitler may has been, the regime was populated by Christians.

Then we can talk about Rwanda, where even clerfy wre implicated.

 

[dedo]

You assert that atheists suffer from pride and then claim:

Isn’t this just a variation on what you’ve stated atheists do?

No, I was just stating an observation. To claim vastly superior expertise compared to a professional who has specific experience with the expertise you are claiming is bizarre behavior.

And theists don’t do the same thing. Just reading this particular topic alone I’ve seen people proclaiming that atheists must somehow be lawless and inherently immoral. I’ve seen posters here and elsewhere claim that atheists are somehow actively rebelling, or are immature, and so on.

I cannot comment on posts I have not seen. I have never said atheists are inherently immoral. Many atheists follow their conscience and do many good things. They are following the influence of God in my opinion. With few exceptions, all of us are immature.

So now my atheism is a “condition”. And yet you take such offense to someone saying “all religious people are mentally ill”…

And for the record, I as an atheist do not believe all religious people are mentally ill, any more than I believe all atheists are the very picture of mental health.

I am not offended in the least by what I observed. I was just stating an observation.
With few exceptions, all of us have “the condition” of a “closed heart” to God in my opinion – to one degree or another. That is the source of all of the world’s maladies.

 

[dedo]

The first genocide of the 20th century was committed by a Muslim state and if you want to talk about the Nazis, whatever Hitler may has been, the regime was populated by Christians.

Then we can talk about Rwanda, where even clerfy wre implicated.

Again, I never claimed Christians were immune to supporting violence. However, the fact that the vast majority of the genocides of the 20th Century where committed by people who chose to separate themselves from God, whether by embracing atheism (Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin), or by creating their own religion (Hitler) cannot be refuted.

If God exists, and God is love, then people who separate themselves from God should be predisposed to do bad things when they obtain power. In the 20th Century, that is exactly what happened.

The question of why do religious fall into the same trap is an important question.

The answer is unknown, but is worth pursuing.